kelpiechick

Depends what organisation you are trialling in. ANKC a knocked bar is a 5 point fault, so no qually. (You only get a qually with 0 faults, time or course) In NADAC you can still qualify with one bar down, depending on what stream of competition you have entered (NADAC has 2 but can't remember what they are called offhand.) NADAC quallies are worth 10 points towards your title but you can get a 5 point qually with just one knocked bar. Not sure about what happens in ADAA.

Totally agree with this. Having run both ends of the spectrum (average paced and manic - LOL) I have definitely been on both sides of the argument here and can relate. I don't believe a Masters title is a 'right' for all dogs and there should always be a reasonably fast rate applied to it - but occasionally I have seen dogs get around clear while still moving at a not too slow pace and not make time which does concern me. One thing I would add is that I believe that sometimes judges apply the rate solely on course distance without taking into consideration course design - (well here anyway, maybe they are a bit more enlightened interstate. ) You can have a fairly long course distance wise, but one that was designed to be flowing and run pretty much in accelaration so dogs are naturally running it with a higher rate of speed. Then you have a course that is not as long and has a huge amount of lead leg changes, tight turns, threadles, push to back of jump, etc, etc, where the dogs are going to move into deceleration for quite a lot of course, so naturally won't be putting down the yps that they are on the other type of course. And yet some judges don't take this into consideration and apply the rate solely on the distance. In regard to moving through the classes, while I am not necessarily a fan of the win out of class system, I do think it creates a higher standard of performance and training in general than our pass accumulation system does, which is food for thought. Many people that I see seem content to run their less than motivated dogs with pretty sloppy handling and still manage to get up through the ranks so are not motivated to improve their level in any way as all they are focussing on is the 'almighty Q'. I know when I had a few runs in Masters Jumping with my more average paced dog and just missed out on time, it made me really look at my handling and training and really work on how I could improve my times, which helped both my training and handling in turn.

Absolutely true. My 30+ plus boy was exactly the same and we got an inspector knocking on our door one day which I was not very impressed about - especially when someone could have just knocked on our door and asked if they were concerned - which the inspector was not when she heard how old he was and went up to see him. I would have been more than happy to show anyone what he was getting fed, what medications and care he received, etc etc if they had asked. Have the guts to approach someone personally if you are truly concerned - or at least get the facts before you make a report.

Agree with Jess about value for the reward. You need to use something that your dog wants at all costs and will do just about anything to earn. If you don't have that type of motivation in place then it's hard to train anything. Everyone wants to get onto the 'exciting' stuff in regard to agility training but it is worthwhile getting really solid layers of reinforcement in place first even if it takes some time to do so. If your dog isn't truly motivated by either food or toys then you really have your work cut out for you and you have to get creative and find something that works. Think about your reward delivery too and make the whole process exciting. In regard to your 2x2's, some other things to think about : 1. Are you record keeping? For each session you need to record your success percentage, reinforcement used, location, your positions on each try, whether you moved or stood still etc., where you sent dog from, any signs of stress from dog, etc. I know it sounds like a lot, but if you hit a problem (which is normal) then it really helps to be able to go back and pinpoint any little thing that may have contributed. Just for the record, it sounds like you are at pretty much the same point that I was with my youngest dog when our success dropped (we went from consistently 95% accuracy down to 30% accuracy when we moved the poles oh so slightly - even a tiny bit of rotation can change the picture a lot for some dogs so you need to be aware of this.) 2. When you add the 2nd set of poles make sure you put them in front of the original set, not behind. This is because you have theoretically already built value for the 2nd set so you now reward in between the 2 sets to build value for the new set added, which the dog is completing first. If my dog was doing the new set and was desperately trying to get to the 2nd set as well, I probably wouldn't be rewarding as much as 50% in between the poles, once you see they have the idea of looking for the 2nd set you can phase that reward out. 3. Keep your sessions short and upbeat. Make sure your dog is aroused enough before you start training or the poles will never have enough value and you won't get any speed through them. I used a bead counter with 10 beads and never did any more than 10 reps (mainly because I suck at math and it was easy to work out percentages this way, LOL) Even 10 reps is too much for some dogs. 4. Don't put the weaves away and take a break unless YOU are getting frustrated with what is happening. It is important that your dogs learn to work through any struggles they are having. If you are having reinforcement issues though, I probably would take a break until you get that worked out. 5. Mix up standing still and moving with your dog. After you throw the reward, run up to your dog as they reach it and have a game on the spot. Don't stand still and wait for your dog to bring it back all the time or you are rewarding the retrieve which is not the purpose of the exercise. 6. Video your sessions if you can. It is amazing what you see that you don't even realise what you are doing. 7. Don't lure, throw food/toy before dog is through poles etc. (another thing video is good for) With this method it is important that the dog will offer behaviour - sounds as if your dog is doing that though. 8. Know your dog before you decide if you are going to use NRM - for some dogs that can really shut them down. I only have 1 out of 3 at the moment that I would even consider using it with and even then I don't very often. 9. It is perfectly normal to hit a snag with this method I believe(or with any training) - happened to me and to several others I know who have trained it. Don't panic - just work through it with all the ideas everyone has given you here. Sometimes performance regression happens just before dog truly 'gets it' for some reason. My accuracy went from consistently 95% to one session at 30%, one session at 35%, two sessions at 50%, then went to 100% and never moved from that for the rest of the training. 10. Make yourself a 'checklist' to use when training : Is my dog aroused enough? Does my dog have enough value in the reward I am using? Are my training mechanics (throwing down the reward line and transporting back to start) correct ? Is my dog driving through poles with head down? Have I worked each step in different locations, etc, etc. Make sure you have each piece of the puzzle in place before increasing the difficulty for your dog. Good Luck with it.

Wasn't very impressed with the Mary Ellen Barry DVD in all honesty. I would rate Greg Derrett 'Agility Foundation Training ' and Moe Strenfel's 'Foundation for Agility' much higher as well as the book 'Agility Right from the Start.'

Nice work I have them all printed off but have only done bits and pieces at the moment as my area is so dusty and dry and has parts I don't want to run on - what is that green stuff you were running on, LOL. Had a giggle looking at the weaves as I had written on the side of my course map - 'this one is good for working on leaving in the weaves and moving off to getting where I need to be' - which is exactly what you did so thank you for that great demonstration! I am hoping to set one up on the last week of club training (we have a 10 week block and only 9 weeks are 'planned' at the moment) and get everyone to video each other's attempts- hopefully I get to have a go too then instead of instructing all the time. Seems to be a lot from Australia having a go looking at all the videos. They are fun courses.

Yep, 5 metres standard, but I think I will go for 6 next time I buy one, just gives a bit more flexibility for setting up some things under contacts. Mine have lasted really well, but I give them a going over every couple of weeks and cut any loose threads. I don't put them away and they have sat outside in the weather for years so well worth the money. The last lot we bought at club didn't appear to be quite as good quality (which is why we went for some ADAA ones) - we had 2 that came apart and lost shape after a few months, but we returned them to Plasticoat and they repaired them for free so I would definitely recommend them for home use

I don't think Agility Click offer tunnels any more. They used to sell the ones from Plasticoat in Vic. and when you ordered through them they organised delivery to you from Plasticoat and added on a fee. They don't do those any more, you can just order straight from Plasticoat yourself and they will deliver. (The usual lightweight yellow/orange ones you see at most trials) If Agility Click are offering any tunnels these days I would imagine they would be the ADAA ones - very heavy duty. We have just ordered 4 of those from ADAA for club but they don't come cheap - around $400+ each. Very long lasting and heavy duty but also quite heavy to move around. If you just want home use the Plasticoat ones are pretty good - mine has been sitting outside for around 7 years and is just starting to show some wear now.

The book 'Agility Right from the Start' is the best foundation resource I have seen - Oz Pet Shop have it at a reasonable price. You can log onto website www.agilityrightfromthestart.com and have a look at some of it for free plus also see a couple of movies of some of the exercises. It pretty much includes everything that is on most of the foundation dvd's so if finances are tight and you can only afford a handful of resources I would go for this one first.

My link Aussies bred to work.

Actually there are 5 agility dedicated clubs in Victoria - BAD (at Bulla) train on a Monday night at Bulla's Dogs Victoria grounds. There is also Mitchell Agility Dogs but I think they train on Sundays at Wandong so probably not suitable. (But I believe currently the only agility club with no waiting list) Oops sorry, I knew about BAD but for some reason it didn't click when typing and I've never heard of Mitchell agility dogs so learnt something new! Mitchell (MAD) have been going for a few years now, certainly longer than we have at Bulla (this is our 3rd year) They don't have a big trialling contingent and most of those who do trial belong to other clubs as well, so even if you've seen them out there I can understand not making the connection. I believe they have a club shirt, think it's purple? They used to have a website if you google, but not sure if it's still operational. If you look at agility trials site you will see a 'mock trial' listed for the Seymour agricultural show - this is the 'trial' that they host. They began training at a private property in Broadford then moved a couple of years back to Davern Reserve at Wandong. They aim more at the market of 'recreational agility' than preparing to trial I think, although one of our instructors at Bulla also instructs at Mitchell and I know she is keen to change things up a bit. Probably a bit far for the OP though.

Actually there are 5 agility dedicated clubs in Victoria - BAD (at Bulla) train on a Monday night at Bulla's Dogs Victoria grounds. There is also Mitchell Agility Dogs but I think they train on Sundays at Wandong so probably not suitable. (But I believe currently the only agility club with no waiting list) We have just had an Assessment night at Bulla and our new intake is about to start this Monday, so next Assessment night is currently scheduled for early February 2013. If you are interested, keep an eye out on the website www.bad.org.au for details. I believe Action Dogs also run an Assessment night rather than a waiting list, so maybe keep an eye out for their website as well. There are a couple of overseas presenters running seminars in Victoria next year, so you may also be able to jump on board there and do a foundation seminar as well. Lynda Orton-Hill @KCC Park in February and Dave Munnings @ a private propery in Clonbinane (near Wandong/Kilmore) in May. I sympathise with how hard it is to get into agility clubs - am so glad it wasn't like this when I first started out. Another obedience club that I believe runs agility is Warringal (@Montmorency near Greensborough) and I don't think you have to be at a particularly advanced standard to participate but I'm not 100% sure, also not sure what their training is like. Might still be worthwhile checking out though.

I believe pup is from Ameroo lines. They breed some lovely looking kelpies but don't know too much about them. (Vikki's pup seems lovely though when I met it recently)

That is correct. But most of Whittlesea is now 'suburban' and so is only up to 2 dogs. Gone are the days when there were half acre type blocks of land around the more populous areas, which have now become housing estates and growing. More than 2 hectares however, does allow a permit for more dogs, but depends on size of your land, etc. and they will negotiate this. We currently have a permit for up to 6 dogs, although I can't see me ever owning that many, the days of 5 were a 'stretch' and only lasted for a few months. 4 is plenty. (And of course exemptions/different rules for registered breeders, but that would be in any council I would imagine?)

Depends on what part of Whittlesea council you live in - given that more than 3 quarters of it is pretty much suburban now, you need to go out past Yan Yean at a minimum pretty much to get decent land. In suburban areas it is still 2 dogs, but you can apply for a permit for extra. In the very outer parts of Whittlesea council, it actually depends how big your land is to what is allowed. We are on 6 acres and had 5 dogs until a little while back, now only have 4 but on 6 acres can have up to 6 without a permit. But that's going to put you a good hour out of the city.

You're talking taking the back of a jump instead of the front? Then yes he does, it's referred to as driving to the refusal plane of a jump as opposed to the active plane. No, I am not talking about sending the dog around the jump. I mean that I take the jump in one direction (or tyre, or whatever) then signal the dog to turn one handred and eight degrees and take the jump in the opposite direction. This would not be seen in normal agility because there must be a minimum of 2 to 4 metres between obstaces (depending on the size of the dog) It is, however, a very useful manoeuvre to score extra points in gamblers. I am talking ANKC rules here, not ADAA. Not strictly anti-Derrett. I do this in gamblers all the time after weaves and contacts and I run Derrett (or try to anyway) Would totally depend on your position in relation to the dog and would in many cases be similar to a front cross on the flat which is trained in outside circle work with GD. The more I see of 'systems' the more I think it is related to a left side/right side of the brain thing. One will make perfect sense to someone and not to someone else, and vice versa. You should handle your dog in a way that sits right with you, not in a way that someone else tells you to - and unfortunately most of us confuse our first dog because we have to experiment to find out what suits to begin with :laugh: My older trialling dog is my 'crossover' dog - trained in one 'system' and changed over to another at 5 years of age, I sometimes wonder how he has coped as well as he has.

It's a smooth coated working Border Collie not a smooth collie. Coal Creek (New Zealand) have a website if you google them but if you're after actual Smooth Collie breed then it won't be much help. Awesome dog and handler btw :)

As others have said there are a couple of main register BC's jumping 600 in Vic. Have also seen one in NSW last time I competed at Wagga that I am pretty sure is a main register dog and it(he?) has been to a couple of seminars in Vic. as well. Compared to other countries in the world, our jump heights are so low that I don't think it's a concern at all for a dog with a build like a BC to be jumping 600. (I totally understand with some other breeds though why people are hoping for the lower measurement.) I am actually disappointed that the rule changed where you can't jump up a height by choice any more, my 500 BC (well and truly a 500 dog) jumps so much better at 600 whereas at 500 she flattens out and pulls bars - never drops one at 600 and her jump style looks so much nicer.) One of my kelpies jumps 600 - measures 550 at shoulder so just missed out. He has no problems with it either but I do cringe when I see some of the heavier breeds that have just missed out. I'm not a fan of NADAC agility, but one thing I think they got right is the breed exemption for particular jump heights, where for dogs with a particular body type their actual measurement is irrelevant and they are able to jump at a lower height.

Monday nights at training when both Paul and Adrian are there - they are both qualified to measure and Adrian usually has the gear with him in his car, if not and you let him know he will bring it along for next time. He usually has forms on him too, but you can download one from the Agility Trials (Vic.) site as well. Will cost you $5 for the measure/height card.

You can make one yourself using the plans here: We got the offcuts of PVC for free from our neighbour when he cleaned out his shed and only had to buy the PVC connectors so it was pretty cheap to make. Have had it for a few years now (its onto dog number 3 in training) and it has lasted just fine.

I apologise for keeping it off topic, but this is the classic moment that I say "Then get a better handling system!" Or perhaps I should be saying, use your handling system more effectively! We often hear this complaint in Sydney, so it simply inspires me to think up more "evil" challenges for them. Cheers, This is it in a nutshell ! And what you are being 'inspired' to do (and I don't blame you one bit) is exactly what some judges do here too in response to the whinging ....... stupid, stupid people whinging cos they make it worse for themselves Kavik, as you get more confident and more understanding of running a particular system you will find that there is less and less that you can't do. When I first switched over I found that there would be a number of Masters courses that might have a section I couldn't figure a way around, maybe 25% at a guess. But this was all from a lack of understanding about what I could and couldn't do. Now it would be lucky to be one course in the past 12 months, including Open and Gamblers. I like the way that Open can be so different, you never know what you are going to get. And a good rear cross is your friend at times !!

I agreed with this & find the same thing with the system I use. Over analysing trial courses from a rules perspective just puts extra things in your head when you are running it. I try to save my analysing for planning my training sessions and just hope like hell it has become second nature when it comes time to test in a trial situation. Absolutely I remember Susan Garrett saying once that if she had time she would re-release 'Ruff Love' again with a rewrite, as people took it to extremes and were doing all sorts of things with it which were not what she intended - I find the same thing with GD handling system, and as you said it also probably happens in other systems too. The 'rules' are actually very simple but people take them to extremes by analysing every little tiny angle and end up with a whole other 'sub set' of rules that I'm sure were not meant to be there in the first place. I'm also sick of hearing people whinging about what they consider 'unfair challenges' in regard to handling systems. (They do here anyway) Why should judges have to consider handling systems when they set courses. I have had a couple of distance challenges that may have been more difficult for me when trying to stick to what is consistency for me, but they are certainly not 'unfair' and I actually enjoy trying to find a way around them. Sorry Kavik to go OT, have had my whinge now (about the very people whose handling system I also use, LOL). In answer to your original question, I don't really consider that I actually train for layering but would do a lot of things similar in my foundation work to what CFS described, building up good drive ahead from my dog (to a stationery toy) while I am able to run beside from further and further lateral distance, then add other toys/ in closer to me as distractions while my dog has to continue on ahead on a straight line to the original target,(supported by my acceleration and body driving forward) if that makes sense. It's really important to me that I can work from lateral distance so I can have independent obstacles and get to where I need to be much easier - especially with my young BC who is way faster than my kelpies and continually leaving me standing flat footed going 'oh have you taken those jumps already ????' :laugh: The first time I used obstacles I would be proofing weaves/contacts, where the dog has to continue on while other obstacles are between me and the weaves, etc. I've never actually trained it using jumps but find that if I build up the foundation work (continue on your line until I pull you off with my body/arm change) then it just happens naturally anyway. If the dog is to take the far jump from me (which is on a straight line) and actually changes line to cut in towards me and takes the closer jump, then I would go back to working it as a lateral distance exercise with just one jump again before I added in the second jump. Hope that makes sense.

Layering and turning the dog away from you (which I call a tandem turn, and this is different to a change behind) are definitely frowned upon in the Greg Derrett handling system. Hence, there are some GD handlers who no longer enter open becasue these types of challenges are common in open class. The GD system also has limitations in Gamblers (at least the quite complex gamblers courses that I really enjoy doing). My personal advice to these people is a simple "Why choose a handling system with those limitations???" I don't find the handling system actually has that many limitations (or I would most definitely not choose it, agreed !) I think misunderstanding about what it is all about causes the limitations. Layering is not 'forbidden' in the GD system - except the layering of a jump that is at 45 degrees to another - to stay on the far side of this jump would put you in serpentine positional cue and by layering and expecting your dog to stay out and not come to you over the jump would then create an inconsistency - in the GD system one cue always means one thing only. You also wouldn't layer if you had to push your dog away from you to take the far jump, as this would be pushing into your dog's line which is considered a flick .... unless you had a left/right verbal in which case I believe you would stand still as you gave your verbal so there was no confusion with your body cue. If the dog's line is automatically taking it to the far jump then it is perfectly acceptable to layer as the dog should be staying on its line until you arm change in Derrett. You are also 'permitted' to layer any obstacle where the actual obstacle controls the dog's exit, so for example weaves and contact obstacles. My older kelpie has his open agility title several times over, also has open jumping and passes at Masters gamblers level all run within the GD system. The only limitation I find sometimes is that I actually have to use a threadle arm to draw him across the line to me and then redirect with a send back to avoid a flick- and this adds time. But for me the clarity of the system (I'm a bit of a rules chick although I certainly appreciate that not everyone is that's for sure) far outweighs any disadvantage in doing this. Too many people following Derrett misinterpret the rules and get bogged down by them IMO which makes the system seem much harder than it actually is.

I think someone asked Greg Derret this when he was out here, unless I'm misunderstanding what people are calling layering etc. His response? Don't run the course at all. Don't teach your dog to flick just to get a Q. He said this applies to a few of the games (including peopel ruining their decal cues to work at a distance). I believe Greg trains a verbal left and right cue rather than a turn away from him. Left and right (from memory) is irrelevant to his postion on course rather than a 'come toward me, turn away' type cue. This did come up in discussion about serpentine handling with fast dogs where it is occasionally difficult to get to positional cue so to stay consistent the verbal left and right can be used. He would only suggest not running the course at all if there was no other alternative available in his handling system... and most of the time there is - especially on open courses where it can usually be solved by taking the DQ and running over the line. Having said that, there are not too many open courses where I have had to resort to that. Working at a distance doesn't necessarily have to ruin your decel cue either - unless you are handling it by standing still and flapping your arm at your dog while expecting them to move away from you.

Oh Baifra, I just saw this. I am so very sorry, Rusty was one of my favourite dogs on here, such a character as only the 'cattlies' can be. Rest in peace gorgeous girl and hugs to you xxx