kelpiechick

We did this with Ian Dunbar at a seminar a few years back and it was a lot of fun. From memory the back to the dog was the one that caused most people the most trouble. He also had a game where you had a baseball diamond with one activity like this at each 'base' and dog had to perform all correctly to get a 'home run'. My favourite was the dog remaining in a stay while you skipped around him in a circle and sang 'how much is that doggy in the window'. So much fun to watch everybody and the look on some of the dog's faces was priceless. Also reminds me of a spin off of Suzanne Clothier's 'Green Eggs & Ham Dog Training'.

I am not a member of this club, but as an Instructor at another club I also feel it is a little unfair to generalise about all the instructors like this. I have seen a couple of Instructors at the club where I train do things that make me absolutely cringe but as LP pointed out, all are volunteers and I would hate to think that someone was going around suggesting that all the instructors (including me!) were like this because of the actions of just a few. Especially on a public forum. Sure for the Instructors of Action Dogs it's the same. And being an instructor is plain hard work with little thanks sometimes. Plus it also gets in the way of working your own dogs, no matter how much you are assured it won't. My young dog is nowhere near as far along as I hoped he would be by now because I rarely get to work him in class and doing it all at home is not the same.

Pip FWIW I think you are doing a wonderful job so far. It's definitely a change adding another dog, but it is very early days yet. It's only natural to wonder if you are doing the right thing. I went through all this when I added my second dog, but with the added challenge of the older dog not wanting to have anything to do with the new one and the problems this caused. It was hard and I felt exactly as you do at times, but we got through it, lots of trial and error, and I'm sure we made lots of mistakes but we survived them, as did the dogs. I now have 4 dogs and wouldn't have it any other way. Looking at adding Number 5 later this year, although my 'original' dog turned 14 yesterday so not sure how much longer he'll be around. In regard to not leaving the toys/food around - this would still be the same for me in a single dog household, it's not necessarily a multi dog thing. As the 'leader' I like to control all the resources for my dog, whether toys, food, etc. so he doesn't decide when he'll eat/play, etc. It's more a training thing. If your dog has access to everything whenever he wants, then you don't control the resources which does not put you in the position of 'power'. The toys come out when we are training or just interacting with me in general. This also gives the toys more 'value' - which is important for me in agility training. Doesn't mean their environment has to be 'sterile' with nothing in it. They have free access to kongs and puzzle balls in their run, as well as an Aussie dog home alone toy and a couple of large balls. (Also have access to meaty bones when noone is home.) There are rarely any squabbles over these and as you have noticed already, they tend to sort it out themselves. Please don't feel that things will not be as good for Dakota adding another dog. Sure, things won't be the same again, but in the long run I think you'll find the benefits to Dakota outweigh the negatives. And it sounds as if they are getting on great even after such a short time.

Sure is - I'll have a website full of them at this rate - along with the ones that say 'only one course fault and always something different every time' and 'obstacle out of order queen!'

Now THAT sounds like a plan We're working on the verandah with '101 things to do with a ladder, perch and jump bump.' The video is coming soon, as is the T Shirt !

Anita, your post was excellent Pip don't forget this kelpie has only been in your home for a matter of hours/days. It is most likely that both dogs are 'feeling their way' in regard to pecking order at the moment. Plus the breeders of my kelpies always stress that the behaviour you see from your kelpie in the first week is not always a true indication - this has been true with both of mine. Plus you are also getting yours as an adult with 'baggage' - and I don't mean this in a negative sense, just that he has had prior learning experiences which will shape his behaviour. One of mine does the 'following around thing' too but has no problems being left alone either. Following around can be very typical of some kelpies. Plus there may be different reasons for it. My young kelpie follows me around and tries to get me to interact with him as he wants to work/train. If this is the reason, it is important that you don't give in to his 'demands' - interaction happens on my terms not theirs. Also important to make sure you teach an 'off switch' as well as encouraging the 'on'. Mine have quiet spots in their crates and are happy to go there when directed. One of mine also food guards which as Anita points out is a natural dog behaviour and does not cause any problems here as I am aware of it and try to manage it. I usually feed them separately, but all 4 dogs have bones together in their run and any (very rare) squabbles are sorted out between them very quickly. (LMidol raised an excellent point in that the food guarding should never be directed against you though. Right from puppies, I have made sure I could take food from mine without a problem. I would guess that this is probably easier to train with a puppy though and you may want to get some advice about how to train this with an adult dog. One thing that I personally don't like with any of my dogs is the habit of them leaving food to come back to later. (As some other posters have also pointed out) I usually have a set time for them to eat their dinner and if they walk off and leave their bowl, then I pick it up and remove it. My youngest kelpie is the only one that used to do this and he learnt very quickly that he can't just wander in and out and eat when he chooses. As pack leader I want to control the resources, including food. I don't leave toys lying around either, they play when I choose and with what I choose. (Not including things like Kongs, etc. as they always have access to these in their runs.) Some kelpies tend to be 'one person dogs' - they will often appear indifferent to everyone else except their 'chosen one'. This is a generalisation, again my youngest kelpie fits this mould, but the oldest one does not, but it is something to be aware of as it is described by many as typical behaviour. You need a very clear set of 'rules' for your kelpie. They respond very well to black and white, not shades of grey and indeed are 'masters of psychology.' Most do not appear overtly dominant but if you are not careful you can suddenly find that the 'control' has shifted to them without you even realising it. Most other posters have also pointed this out I think. As Rusty is still finding his place in your household, I would concentrate on you and your fiance establishing leadership, and the dogs will usually work it out for themselves. Most kelpies do not respond well to harsh training methods, or even compulsion training methods as they are bred to be thinking, problem solving dogs who like to demonstrate initiative. (The trick is steering this 'kelpie initiative' so that it matches what you want them to do.) They are usually ideal candidates for positive training techniques. Again I generalise, as I'm sure you get 'atypical' in each dog breed. I find that mine respond well to leadership and direction but not control - and finding the balance between these is not easy at times. I don't mean control in the sense that you need to able to control your dog's behaviour, of course you do - more the tight, rigid, nit-picking control freak type of control. (I hope that makes sense- maybe dominance would be a better word than control???) The 'learn to earn' program (usually referred to on here as NILIF) works brilliantly with them as it gives them a chance to exercise their minds. Sure there are plenty of threads on here about it? In the 'Kelpie thread' I posted a link for you to my blog, which has quite a few reflections on training kelpies and the kelpie temperament if you want more information. (Although I am no expert, these are just from my own kelpie owning and training observations) If you are interested in joining a kelpie discussion group, where you can ask questions to trainers who have experience with kelpies, then PM me and I will send you the link. I can also recommend a training and behaviour book written just for kelpie owners if that helps.

Hey I'm not positive about anything in this life except 'death and taxes' - and the fact that I've been spending too much time sitting at this computer lately instead of playing with my dogs, which stops after this post ! A clicker doesn't come with a contract and a set of concrete 'rules' - it is a conditioned reinforcer that I guess you can condition to use in any way you want - whether 'correct' or 'incorrect' is semantics depending on the purpose you have for using it. I'm sure all clicker trainers bring their own individual perspective to training - for me, it's agility plus I am very big on consistency. Therefore, when I read training articles about using a clicker, I tend to stick with following recommendations of trainers from an agility background - Susan Garrett, Moe Strenfel, Angelica Steinker, Elicia Calhoun - all of whom use the 'click always means treat' philosophy. For me, this makes sense as being very consistent. Plus apart from the odd 'sharpening up' session, I only use the clicker when I am teaching a new behaviour, therefore I want the extremely high reward rate of 'click = treat'. So the clicker is conditioned to mean one thing only and this never changes. Once the behaviour has reached a particular level of consistency, I then put away the clicker and condition a verbal bridge - which does NOT got rewarded after every use. So in this respect I am doing the same as you, maybe just going about it in a slightly different way. I have no doubt that you can condition your clicker to not always equal a treat, but for me, I don't want to as I am very happy with the results I have achieved using it in this way, and the strength of the behaviours this has created. But for others bringing their own individual perspectives to their training, if it works for you, then why not? I think it is also important to remember that dog training is evolving all the time, and something you read in a book one day may change a few years down the track. If you read some of the very early clicker training material from the 60's in relation to marine mammals, you will find trainers like Gary Wilkes advocating that the click does indeed end the behaviour. If it wasn't for other trainers taking these original ideas, experimenting with them and then the resultant changes happening, clicker training would not have the depth that it does today. And for the record, Karen Pryor 'Don't Shoot the Dog' (revised 1999 edition) : 'It is necessary to stress 'one click equals one treat' as a general rule, in order to teach people to shape behaviour efficiently.' She may very well have revised this by now as that was quite a while ago so you could be right in that you have read otherwise, especially as she uses the words 'as a general rule.' I think your level of experience as a trainer can also influence the way you use it, which fits with the context of the quote too. No wonder it's confusing for 'newbies'. Off to play with my dogs !!

If you are using your clicker according to the 'doyens' of clicker training eg: Bob Bailey, Moe Strenfel ,Karen Pryor, and I'd probably add Susan Garrett to that list - then you are correct, the click should always pay otherwise the clicker will eventually lessen in value when teaching new behaviours. For me, I use the clicker when training new behaviours, then once the behaviour is getting pretty reliable (80% accuracy according to Bailey) then I change to a verbal bridge- 'yes'. Once I am using the verbal bridge, then I don't always 'pay' every time I mark. I understand the classical conditioning argument, does make sense, but I find that if the association is made that the clicker always pays, it does make it easier when it comes out again for a new behaviour. Plus I have a huge respect for Susan Garrett as a trainer and if she says reward after every click then I am going to reward after every click! LOL. If the click ended the behaviour, it would be very difficult to teach some agility behaviours- teaching a 2o2o contact is one thing that comes to mind. When first teaching this, I want the opportunity to multiple reward ('machine gunning' without the jackpot if you like) and this way I can keep my dog on the end of the dogwalk and keep asking for a nose touch and reward every single one - love watching dogs trained to do this, almost looks like they are chicken pecking. If the click ended the behaviour, then it would also be marking my release from the contact which I don't want, and I would have to go through the motion of putting them back on there every single time just to backchain the end behaviour. Another agility obstacle that comes to mind are the weaves - sometimes when working on entries I can click to mark correct entry with the dog still completing the weaves rather than jumping out as the click has not ended the behaviour. Agree with all the posters who stressed the importance of the release cue - I believe this is something that we often take for granted without really teaching it to our dogs - and often they don't truly understand it. Once you start doing agility, your release cue can have multiple meanings (compared to obedience) and this really makes you think about what you are doing to keep consistency. It's also one of the things that we spend a lot of time teaching in foundation class away from equipment. Also agree with Mrs D about bringing the clicker out every now and then to sharpen already learned behaviours. Mine see it appear when it hasn't been out for a while and are instantly switched into excitment mode. Sorry Luke - seem to be going OT a bit.

True, each click should be followed by a reward, but the click should not be a cue for the behaviour to end, therefore it never acts as a release cue. (or shouldn't anyway) Levi - I am not an 'obedience person' (although all my dogs have completed basic classes) so probably not the best person to give you advice about heeling but there was a really interesting article in 'Clean Run' magazine a couple of months back in the foundation training column where Mary Ellen Barry was teaching her puppy to heel by targeting a bulldog clip, which she then attached to her pants. Not sure if this would be a good method to use for someone considering competition obedience, but I found it very interesting as I have never seen heeling taught like this before. Also took care of the food problem, as she built up value for the clip (paired nose touching the clip with reward) - however you would then have the problem of fading the clip. But it certainly seemed to work to get the dog in desired position.

Hi Luke, (how cute is your avatar!) Without really knowing exactly how you train, it sounds to me as if you have been using food as a lure rather than just as a reinforcement, which can easily happen without you meaning it. Although I prefer never to lure when teaching a new behaviour, it is OK to do so provided the lure is faded very, very quickly - if not then you get the kind of problems you are describing- where the value is totally with the food, rather than transferring to the work/activity/interaction with you - sorry, I'm not very good at explaining what I mean. But you can't go from a lure to an intermittent reinforcement schedule - you need to get rid of the lure first - to rewarding with 'hidden' rewards, then to variable schedule. It's OK for him to know that the food is coming, but he shouldn't know where it is all the time.

Im going to change this to suit my situation I tried a prong collar with both my 2 dogs - dobermanns it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned them to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) they walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind. Ill do one for Midol too I tried a ecollar with my young GSD - it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else was in fact remotely associated with that. I didnt even issue a command. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind. How is that? If it fits with YOUR training philosophy and sits right with YOU inside YOUR head then for YOU it's fine! How is that? No comment for the 2nd part you did for Midol though as I don't like people putting words into other's mouths no matter how well they think they know them. Plus I never used the words 'I didn't even issue a command' in my post - not sure where that came from or how it's relevant?????

Firstly the headcollar - here's the age old problem, which I believe is the same problem for any training tool of choice, whether it be halti, prong, check, etc. - unfortunately in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use correctly - and that would be me with some of the aforementioned tools I am happy to admit - 'do no harm' can turn into 'do plenty harm'. I tried a headcollar with both my older 2 dogs - 2nd of the 2 (ACD) it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind. Older dog (BC X) was a different story - even though conditioned to wear it, it never really seemed to 'put him in the correct position' as it did for the ACD - I don't understand why. He continued to fight it the whole way to the point where I would have been pulling on it to get him where I wanted him to be - in my mind no longer a positive training tool for him and also now having the potential to create 'damage' so I didn't use it any more and tried something else. Not sure if that answers your question or not and other trainers may have different thoughts but this is how I would classify them IMO. And as for any thing used, they are just tools at the end of the day to get you where you want to go - with the ACD I still trained heeling without the halti as I did not want to rely on always having to have it, it was just that the halti created more opportunities to reinforce the correct position. Secondly, the other age old problem of misinterpretation by email, which is why I don't post in training much to be honest. (Dont' know what got into me today- LOL) The 'floating the boat' comment is aimed at MY dogs and how I know they respond to training based on a lot of 'trial and error' so please don't interpret it as being aimed at YOUR dogs, anyone else's dogs and whatever training methods you may choose to use and feel defensive, that wasn't my intention at all and I'm sorry if you took it personally. All I am saying is that at the end of my 2 younger dog's lives, even though I have made plenty of mistakes with their training and will not do everything the same with the next one, all the training tools (whatever they may be) that I have used with them still 'sit right' with ME inside MY head and I wouldn't change them if I had the chance to go back. My one regret with my older 2 dogs is that I cannot say that and I wish I could go back and change some of the methods and tools I used. And I still think I have a great relationship with these dogs but in MY mind it could have been different and I will forever regret it. If you are happy with how you train and the subsequent relationship you have created, your dog is happy and willing to work with you, then you are 'floating their boat' too - surely it's an individual thing. I think the end result matters more than the 'path' used to get there.

Well said And what is it with the term 'purely positive' that is always thrown about on here? I am a positive trainer and have never heard it referred to as purely positive before - the only 'purely positive' training I have heard of is the name of a book. In a perfect world I would like to think that I deal with unwanted behaviour by simply ignoring it, but I don't believe that perfect world exists - easy to ignore unwanted behaviour in some instances and reward wanted behaviour and this is my first choice, but not if I need an immediate consequence- say for example something that might be an 'emergency' situation. So does issuing a verbal 'correction' or NRM, timeout, etc. make me not a positive trainer - I don't believe so. As Susan Garrett says 'positive is not permissive'. I do believe that positive trainers sometimes use what could be loosely termed as 'corrections' - but not on the learning quadrant of 'positive punishment' that is being advocated here. And also for the record, I have no doubt that positive punishment does work, not disputing that. And if that's your training method of choice - fine - whatever floats your boat. But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me :p So for the OP (you poor thing!) - don't put a correction collar on a young pup - that seems to be agreed by all. Once your dog moves out of the puppy stage, there are a lot of training options open to you - as you can see in this thread - which people on both sides feel passionate about. Is there a 'correct' way to train your dog? Probably not, so you will need to do some research to decide. (maybe not on here LOL!) Talk to people who use different methods, try to actually see some dogs trained with different methods and make up your own mind. Plus you will need to work with whatever your dog gives you - some dogs are ideal candidates for particular training methods. I still believe that just about every dog can be trained with positive methods if you are willing to put in the time and effort, but as you can see, that is a point of huge dissention on here, so that is a personal belief only. For the record, as a positive (but not purely positive!) trainer I would recommend reading from: Susan Garrett The late John Fisher Ian Dunbar Suzanne Clothier (who even advocates the use of prongs in certain situations) Kay Laurence Karen Pryor Jean Donaldson and I'm sure there are lots of others. And I'm also sure that someone from the 'other side of the fence' can recommend another list of references for you. Good Luck. (off to research my next dog - probably get one of those 'easy' BC's or Tollers or Aussies )

Just substitute the word 'dog' for 'handler' in my case and you've got mine

I have tried both (100% commercial/100% raw) and mine are now on a combination of both. (4 days raw/3 days Eagle Pack in off trialling season and the reverse in trialling season) They get kangaroo mince, fish, a little bit of organ meat, lots of pulped vegies and fruit, sardines, chicken wings, necks and frames, omega oil supplement, kelp, yoghurt, meaty bones and very occasionally a bit of oat bran. I can honestly say that for them this has given the best results in relation to their coat condition, fitness levels, etc. Plus a side benefit was that it is now easier when travelling to trials for the weekend in relation to feeding them. You may need to experiment a little to find what is best for your particular dog. Are you sure the EP was responsible for any allergies? One of my kelpies has a grass allergy over 'hay fever season' and this was no better when he was on 100% raw - if anything it was slightly better this year when he was on the 'mix.' Agree that I would dump the other brand - Eagle Pack is the only commercial food that I would feed, however we won a bag of Artemis at a trial recently which is the only trial food win they have been allowed to eat as it appears to be comparable to EP.

You are already the Number 2 cardholder - after me! (Being impatient and giving in to the temptation of others is the sign of a true addict - congratulations!)

In that case maybe Greg will have something special for me ;)

And I'm having the T Shirts printed as we speak

Welcome to Agility Addicts - I'm forming a support group next year. And the first spending experience is always the scariest - it gets way easier after that !

Geez Pippi - you don't expect me to wait that long for my GD fix do you????? Hope it's NOT for sale actually as I'm such a sucker for buying things at seminars, I'll probably buy it again !

Fingers crossed that all of us Australian agility tragics spent so much money and boosted their sales so much that they offer it again - very shortly

Jess, will let you know what DVD is like once it arrives. As someone who has been retraining into his system for the past 12 months or so ..... I can't wait - even more than I can't wait for CR package. And I know all about the crap handling decisions - like the one that cost us the last pass we need for Masters Agility on Sat. Oh well, next year !

Well Tassie - your package looks as if it was worth paying postage for - how cute ! Leopuppy, it generally takes anything between 5 days (that was my record!) or 2 weeks (if it gets opened at Customs) My list looks pretty boring compared to everyone elses - no dvds or books as I have just ordered the brand new Greg Derrett DVD from England - he doesn't do anything for ages then 2 in a year !!!!! I cheated though - there was one DVD I wanted and I got the agility club to buy it for the library - for me to borrow first of course I ordered : Universal sun shade - looks good for trialling and also looks bigger than anything I've seen here Aqua porter - also looks good for trialling - had a cheap version that I bought here and it didn't last Cello bags with paw prints - to package home made doggy bics Driver pocket - for my friend for Christmas as she goes crazy over mine every time she gets in my car Clicker plus - makes other sounds not just clicks and I want to use it in agility class next year and 'click' my students - without confusing their dogs ! (Bit of TAG teaching) Stuffing free dog toy - raccoon. My kelpie got the fox for his birthday and he loves it. And an 'I love agility' magnet just for me cos I do!

Hi Silvawillow - it was good to see you back trialling on the weekend. I sympathise with the ankle thing - I have one totally crap one after tearing ligaments 3 times. Will need a reconstruction one day but putting that off as long as I can. Have tried a couple of different supports but honestly don't find any of them comfortable to run in. Usually I get out of the ring and can't wait to rip it off. There are some very thin neoprene looking ones - blue? I have seen around that may be more comfortable but haven't tried them. Have actually gone back to bandaging it instead when I need to as this is more comfortable for me. Another agility competitor who has first aid qualification showed me best way to do it and that seems to work for me. I also try to do exercises a few times a week - different stretches, rotating ankle, etc. and that also seems to help. For me I would prefer to strengthen the ankle as much as I can rather than strap all the time, as I also believe that you can come to rely on supports sometimes. Sorry I can't help any more than that.

No, final order price is in US dollars. Not every item is available to be shipped free so it may be charging shipping because of what you have ordered? Some items can only be shipped via a particular type of post which is not being offered for free (the ready jump is one example apparently) Also it may depend on whether or not you are an existing customer - but I'm not sure about that one.