kelpiechick

Most of the 'specialist' shoes stocked by Clean Run are just 'variations' of field hockey shoes. Just Hockey in Malvern (if they are still operating) used to have a good range and they stock Ditas. Bit cheaper than paying OS postage.

Correct sizes for what organization, as they vary? In regard to ANKC agility, your tunnel is OK ( 600mm diameter and may vary between 4 and 8 metres in length) Your seesaw sounds as if it may be too short and too wide. .....'length of the plank should be a minimum of 3650mm to a maximum of 4250mm. Width a minimum of 300mm to a maximum of 330mm. Height of central bracket being app. 1/6 of the length of the plank to the ground.' So the one you are looking at sounds as if it is in proportion, but not regulation size. It sounds a bit like one of the old NADAC ones that they used to have in Vic. as they were shorter than ANKC. It may be correct size for ADAA? but I don't know as we don't have that in Vic. Sure someone on here will be able to tell you.

No, didn't come today and now I have no excuse not to write reports this evening. :p (apart from wasting my time on here of course !) Might send them an email too, if we all bombard them, they may try and do something about whichever company does their OS mailings at the moment - I know it changes from time to time.

I have a work colleague living in your area who has just started out with her puppy attending the classes offered by the Lost Dogs Home. She is loving it, so might be worth looking into. I'm not sure who takes the classes at Nth Melbourne, but know the trainer taking the classes at Hoppers Crossing (they also run classes there) and she is great.

JulesP, firstly please don't think my comment relating to forums not being a good place to learn a method was aimed at you - I honestly don't think a forum is a good place to learn anything as written comments are very open to misinterpretation no matter who makes them. Nothing personal meant there and certainly not a reason to stop offering advice to anyone. But it's part of a forum that when you put comments out there, it is very likely there are people who will disagree with them, no matter who you are. If I didn't want people disagreeing with what I post, then I guess I would never post at all. Forums are a good place to get differing opinions and sort through them, but you then need to make an informed decision yourself. I also didn't say that luring would 'stuff up' the whole method - but for me, if a world class trainer has developed a system , after many years of trialling it, and has strict guidelines for training this system, then I am not going to tweak it when I run into a 'roadblock' where I am not getting the behaviour I want. To me this means I need to go back and do more foundation first. Another reason why I recommended getting the DVD to the OP. The reason SG doesn't want luring is that the dog is learning to follow food and doesn't even look at the poles when following food through so in effect is not understanding the first step at all as there is no 'thinking' involved. (It also goes against her training philosophy of not showing reward first ie: no bribes) For me also, I want to develop my dog as a thinking, problem solving dog not afraid to offer behaviours. I made the mistake of doing things to make it easier in many situations with my older kelpie and although I didn't think I was 'stuffing him up' at the time - because I got the behaviour I wanted, when I compare his working through a new learning experience now with the younger one that I have had more patience with and let him work it out himself - well there's a massive difference. And in a split second decision on a Masters course I know which dog I'd rather have. milzi09 - glad you found someone to help you out - and I can relate about the impatience thing. But dogs appear to learn this method pretty quickly, so no need to rush.

Well said Pippi. For the OP - in all honesty, this is not a method I would be trying to train without either the guidance of an experienced trainer OR the e-book and DVD. And don't get me wrong - I think it's a brilliant method from what I have seen so far. (Haven't trained a dog 'from scratch' yet but I retrained my young dog with it to work on entries, and the results blew me away, in 2 weeks he was making entries independently that I still have to babysit with my more experienced dog) However, it is a method that leads itself to a lot of misinterpretation when training. A lot of people read a set of instructions and then go out and train it and don't get it right, so it ends up being 2X2 trained with a lot of tweaking here and there -(which may still get results but may also create 'baggage' down the track) as Pippi says, not what SG would recommend. You only have to watch what's out there on You-Tube and there are as many clips posted where people are getting it 'wrong' as there are those where it is being trained correctly. The other thing you are missing without guidance is 'troubleshooting'. (also covered on DVD) Plus the foundation for this method - you really need a dog that is what I would call 'operant' as even though you are not using a clicker, your dog must understand the process of offering a behaviour and working through this if he is 'wrong' and does not get a reward. SG recommends going back and working this step if you have a dog that needs 'luring' to get it into the poles originally. Another reason why the checklists that come with it have a space to record any stress signs you note in your dog - too many stress signs and your dog may not be ready for this method just yet. There are many other methods of teaching weaves out there that still give good results - although I have yet seen anything to rival the entries of this method. Although it gives good 'driving through the poles and head down' so does channel weaving if taught correctly. We teach channels at club mainly because it is the 'easiest' to teach - not necessarily any easier to learn, you still need to put the work in- but with a group of instructors with hugely varied levels of expertise, as you will find in most clubs, it was the best way to get consistency. But I would have no hesitation in using 2X2 with private students if I thought they were going to put the work in at home. Have never tried WAM's but the footwork these create appear to be way better than any other method - although sometimes I wonded if it's just 'BC genetic related' :cool: My advice would be save your money and get the DVD if you really want to use this method. I definitely wouldn't be teaching it with bits and pieces of advice from a forum In the meantime, use the time while you are saving up to work on trick training and shaping with your dog as this will give you an excellent foundation for teaching the method. You could also go to some trials, look at the dogs whose weaving you admire and talk to the handlers about how they achieved their results. Most handlers are happy to answer questions - providing you don't accost them as they are entering or leaving the ring of course.

Jules do you mean something like this ? (ignore the jump spacing) This type of scenario where it is in the middle of a course so you can't handle it with a leadout? Your dog is on your left going over the jumps and you are then using a threadle arm (or serp. arm, RFP, false turn , special occasion hand, whatever you choose to call it) to change dog's line - get him back in handler focus and draw toward you past the plane of incorrect tunnel entrance to then send to correct tunnel entrance with the original (left) hand. Is that right?

OMG - Another fallacy that seems to be continually promoted by those not using or understanding Derrett (Greg with one g) system. If the system is run correctly, dogs get the information in plenty of time not to cause stress on their joints. All turns are cued with both positional cues (my postion in relation to the upcoming obstacle is a signal for you to understand where you are going next) and deceleration (eg: I am slowing down - signal for you to collect because a turn is coming up. And the 'correct' timing of giving these positional cues is before dog takes off for previous jump. Why on earth would you need to be any earlier than that ? Seems more logical for me that my dog would understand ' when you turn, I turn' rather than 'when you turn I will continue going straight and then I will turn'. If the dog is getting the information late due to sloppy timing and handling (guilty as charged at times I am sure!) then it's hardly fair to blame a system for that. Maybe you have been watching the wrong people - it's a pity to judge a system by those who don't always execute it correctly. Once trained, it shouldn't confuse dogs at all as it is one of the only consistent systems where one cue always equals one behaviour only, every time. My dogs actually seem to like that. Unlike some other systems where one cue can mean several different things. And I'm not sure how a lead out pivot, for example, could put more stress on a dog's joints than recall to side. I'm sure Ronda has some terrific stuff to offer too and if it suits people and their dogs that's great. Agility would be pretty boring if we all handled courses like clones. But I'm not sure where all these misconceptions keep coming from? Hopefully not from those running other systems who feel the need to think that theirs is the 'best.' There doesn't have to be a 'best' if you are happy with how you decide to handle. But I have never seen or heard so many incorrect assumptions about the Derrett system as any other system and it amazes me. Rarely hear the Derrett handlers (not the ones I know anyway) rubbishing APHS system and making blanket comments about it when they haven't run it, based on listening to what others say and watching a couple of videos.

Good question - I would also like to know just out of curiousity, I certainly don't want to start a debate about handling systems as there has been enough 'Derrett trashing' on some forums already from what I've seen. I always think it's good if people go to as many seminars as possible so they can make an informed decision about what will suit them and their dogs. No 'right' or 'wrong' handling systems. From what I have seen I think it's a bit like whether your 'right or left' brain is dominant. One system seems to make more sense to some people and the other seems to make more sense to others. The think that I dislike the most is the way it seems to be viewed as an 'us and them' issue by many. I've clocked up 6 different OS presenters now and can honestly say that Greg and Laura (and Susan) were the best by an absloute mile in respect to what makes sense to me. (and that's not to say I didn't learn anything from the others - all were valuable in different ways.) Agree with Jess that I wouldn't change my handling system based on a tunnel issue either. And Jess, I would never say you were 'wrong' to handle discriminations with a shoulder pull. (You and Darcy regularly kick my butt in Masters Jumping and I am in awe of her speed! )If I am far enough ahead I sometimes use a shoulder pull on tunnel discriminations too, but if not ahead enough, I believe it can sometimes turn into a flick - but you know I am a 'purist' when it comes to trying to run this system. (substitute stubborn, pig headed addict if you like, I can live with it . ) Have also seen a lot of overuse of threadle arms where they weren't really necessary, not to mention threadle arms used to change lines where there is not a 'redirect' following the line change. I am also a big believer in 'if it works for your dog and you are happy with it, go for it.' Jules, just out of curiousity, if your dog has no trouble with the serpentine cue, try substituting the 3rd jump in a serpentine with a tunnel and see what happens. Would give them an 'easier' scenario of come to my threadle arm, then redirect back into tunnel entrance.

Using a threadle arm has 2 parts - give the signal, dog knows to come to that hand. 2nd part, is the turning back that you mention they are having trouble with. Best explanation for teaching this I have seen is on SG's One Jump DVD - Serpentine. In a nutshell, dog needs to understand it is one move with 2 parts. Right from the beginning I never teach my dog the 'come to threadle arm' part without then changing line and sending back again. I might break it down and reward many times for coming to threadle arm but always do the 2nd part afterwards. This is where the GD system creates confusion in those who don't use it as they see the threadle arm as an inconsistency. If you think of it as being the 1st part of a 2 part signal - where one part always follows the other no matter what, then it makes sense. Sounds as if your dogs haven't quite got the 2 parts yet which is pretty normal in a novice dog. Also, if you have rewarded a lot for pulling off the tunnel they may be just a little unsure about whether or not they are actually meant to take it - all common for novice dogs. I would be making sure I had a pretty good understanding of serpentine first, as once they understand that there are actually 2 parts in the sequence, it will help your tunnel discrimination.

You could possibly use a Front Cross sometimes for a tunnel discrimination as it is often a definite turn (change of side) for your dog - but it would not be as efficient as using a threadle arm in most cases. If you are able to, it is a good idea to run the sequence both ways and take note of your dog's line each time. Also, if you master the sequence using a front cross, the threadle arm substitution may be easier for you. (Although a front cross may also be creating a flick, depending on where you actually are in relation to the tunnel entrance you want) When you are first learning to use this (both you and your dog) I agree that it feels a little clumsy - the timing can also be difficult, holding the threadle arm until you are sure your dog is past the plane of the incorrect tunnel entrance before turning back and signalling with the original arm but the beauty of this move is that once your dog truly understands what your threadle arm is signalling as you approach a tunnel - and they do come to understand as in this system one body cue means one thing only - then it is very quick to perform, therefore creating a faster line to the tunnel than the 'S' shaped line a front cross will give you. The other things that make using a front cross more difficult here is that most people seem to forget the diagonal line when heading to a tunnel and will perform the front cross on a straight line - also for a good front cross in the Derrett system, you would need to be right up near the tunnel entrance to give positional cue to the dog, so that would mean you would have to be able to get a fair bit ahead. (I find this easier on a course with a lot of turns rather than on a straight run to the tunnel. It can be hard enough to be that little bit ahead enough to use a threadle arm at times. I have also trained tunnel discrimination with a rear cross for those times I can't get there!) Remember with an inexperienced dog you will need to literally plant your feet and hold the threadle arm for what seems like ages - don't forget to reward for actually coming to your arm at first. The hardest thing is the 'standing still' that a green dog needs- hard not the actually start moving backwards at first. There is still a big difference between my novice and masters kelpies in how quick I can perform this - baby dog needs a lot more support, older dog understands he is to take particular tunnel entrance as soon as my shoulders start to move with arm coming across - yet timing is still crucial as I have on occasion turned back extremely quickly and pulled him back to the incorrect tunnel entrance. Crappy handler ! I'm still having a bit of trouble visualising where you are in relation to the tunnel entrance from your example (no wonder I forget courses!) so apologies if I've misinterpreted. If you start with your dog on your left you would be origianlly directing with left hand, right hand would come across for threadle arm signal, then original (left) hand would send to the tunnel. Another thing I would be thinking about in a course situation is what side I wanted to be on after the dog comes out of the tunnel. Don't forget using a front cross will give you a side change before tunnel, but threadle arm won't. There may be the occasional time when using a front cross does become more efficient based on where you are going next but I think this would be rare. Hope this makes sense, almost confused myself reading it back but I know what I mean. And it is a really clear system for the dogs once the handlers have figured it out...... probably still figuring in my case.

There's an agility judge in the US currently training a basenji. You can read about it in her blog. http://www.jumpfast.net/

Someone handy with a sewing machine should be able to make you something if you find a design you like. I make tugging pouches and sell them at my agility club (similar to the link someone sent you but the fleece ends are a little different) but am in Vic. Gotta be an 'agility addict' in your own state who makes their own if you ask around. Can post a photo if you want. The ones made from sturdier materials last, but many dogs don't like to go straight to the 'hard stuff' and you need to start with more 'user friendly' materials first. These don't last all that long once your dog discovers the joy of the food inside - LOL, so if you are continually buying from OS they can become an expensive option. Can always start with the good old chicken neck in a sock..... cheap alternative and most dogs love it. A cheesestick is another good alternative for dogs that won't interact with a toy - I have some dogs in class that won't even look at a toy but will chase a cheesestick and hold it in their mouths and 'tug' quite happily. (and a great reward when they tug firmly!)

This site still has a PDF version of the old agility form, which I believe was also used for tracking and obedience. Use the buttons on the left hand side, and click on agility. Then click on large purple heading '2006 trial' You will then find a whole lot of information about their 2008 trial. Scroll down (way down!) and you will see some more links in a red box on middle of page. One is for entry forms. Click on this and a sample form comes up, but if you scroll down further, you will find another link for a form- click on the black dog. Sorry it's a bit complicated, but it won't let me link straight to the page for some reason. Hope this helps.

Good on you for wanting to do the right thing and give your kelpie plenty of exercise. I would think he is definitely from working lines - if you go to the Sydney Royal and look at the kelpies being shown you will find they look very different from your boy- who is adorable BTW. Have just realised he is only a puppy (another blonde moment, it is a puppy thread after all- duh!) Not sure how old he is but be careful not to do too much exercise too soon. People will tell you that a kelpie needs to run a certain amount each day - but are basing that on an adult needs. So build up slowly, especially with endurance type things. Several short exercise sessions each day are good for puppies - most will run around and self exercise at other times too. Make sure you give him plenty of mental stimulation too - just as important, if not more important for kelpies - they are thinking dogs who really need a job to do. Mine are involved in agility training, but both did obedience type training as puppies. They respond very well to positive methods - if you treat kelpies harshly they quickly lose respect - and love trick training too. Bonus to basic obedience and trick training is that you can work several very short sessions each day, inside as well. (Commercial breaks during television programs are idea for this) Also make sure he is occupied during the day - lots of meaty bones (marrow bones are favourites for mine), stuffed kongs, treat balls, chewies, etc. I don't leave other type toys lying around without supervision but there are a range of things you can get that are pretty safe for unsupervised use - and what a bonus to have your parents around. For a first time kelpie owner I would recommend getting this book : 'Kelpie Basics and Beyond' published by the Noonbarra Kelpie stud. You can buy it online here. A fantastic book for any puppy owner, not just kelpies. It covers basic behaviour and training and is easy to understand. I have a blog for my kelpies here which will probably not be very interesting for you as it is mainly agility related. But there are links on the right to other kelpie related stuff that might interest you so feel free to have a look. I hope you get as much happiness from your boy as I do from my two!

Yep. Only the down contact must be touched.

Is your kelpie from working lines or show lines? (from a breeder/show lines or a stud/working lines?) You described him as Australian kelpie (name used for show lines) and mentioned looking at kelpies being shown in conformation, but from your photos looks more like a working line kelpie to me (million apologies if I'm wrong as a photo isn't always good indication- I cannot tell the size or build from this) If a working line kelpie, I don't think the kelpie club will be all that helpful to you - the working and show strains have almost evolved to a point where they are practically different breeds in many ways. If you still have concerns, I would be contacting breeder/stud breeder first before the vet to find out if they think this is a normal behaviour. I have 2 red and tan working line kelpies and both exhibit exactly the same behaviour with the panting you described - but only need very short periods of 'recover' between exercising and would go all day...... if I let them. So I would consider it totally normal.

Kavik - it is really hard thing to visualise if you haven't done it. When you first start out, you need to get any preconceived thoughts of 'weaving' out of your head or you will have trouble visualising how it works. (I couldn't get if from the book and DVD- although I though I had it - but it made sense when I put it on the ground so to speak) Especially when you are working the more difficult entries with just 2 poles, (working the arc) and your dog is going in off your left - if you can't imagine the 'final product' with the poles eventually going down the reinforcement line, it looks as if you are sending your dog in with an incorrect entry (right shoulder) - Susan Garrett got lots of questions on her blog about this too. Remember this is based on SG handling, which is the Derrett system, so the dog also gets a cue as to which 'end' of the poles to enter from the side you are set up on. You don't stand in the same spot all the time, or this won't work. Varying your position also challenges the dog's understanding. For the more difficult entries (dog is facing 'wrong end' of poles from which I want to enter and actually has to run past poles and turn around to make correct entry) if you set your dog up on the right of you and then the dog entered the 'close' end of the row of poles, which is not what I want - then the dog would actually have to move in front of me and cross my feet to get in - this is a big 'no no' in the GD system so for a dog that understands the consistency of being handled in this way (which would certainly be Susan's by the time she got to introducing weaves) it is a strong cue. And depending on which side of the poles you are working the arc from, in the Derrett system there is only one possible side that you could have your dog on when you are sending them in. (Other side would be a 'motherflicker') So they are always on your left when turning into the more difficult entries on the left and the reverse for the right. This is the only thing that I don't think she goes into detail about on the DVD - but it was my 'penny drop' moment with the whole process once I figured out how it related to my position in the handling system. I retrained my younger kelpie's entries over Summer and because he has only ever been trained in the GD system, he seemed to catch on to understanding which end of the poles he was supposed to enter from very quickly. However my older kelpie is a retrain into the system and often reverts back to first handling taught. He really struggled with the concept of which end to enter from for a long time - offering me way more incorrect responses (wrong end of poles) for the difficult entries than the other kelpie did - and continues to do so. If you go on to Susan's blog and go back to some of her older entries she actually has some footage of some of her readers training the first few steps and she points out what they are doing well or not so well (with their permission of course). Watching these might help you understand the 'which end of the poles' concept - it did for me.

There was an obedience training session happening at Whittlesea on Saturday mornings last year. I don't have any information as to exact times, training methods used, etc. but used to see them whenever I walked my dogs in the area. There appeared to be 2 or 3 different standard classes going on. Don't know if it still happens but might be worth checking it out to find out more as it's not that far from you and would suit your time requirements. They were behind the tennis courts at the end of Laurel St (between the tennis courts and the 'river') and were usually there around 10:30 ish. From a distance it appeared to be well organised at least. If you are looking for a club that uses positive training methods then Northcote may not be for you- unless it's had a radical overhaul. I was a member several years back when I lived close by but only went to a small number of training sessions and wouldn't recommend the experience.

Woo Hoo - Go Ms Darcy ! How did you go with agility? Are we both still members of the 'Only need one more pass and how friggin' long is it going to take?' Club

I would love to do this but unfortunately that thing called 'work' gets in the way yet again. Would the option of the 2 day attendance be on Sat/Sun?

Could be all of the above I think :rolleyes: Interesting thought. I'm only speaking from an agility background but it seems to me that many of us are very fixed in the idea of 'treat at the end of running the course' which for me was often a jackpot. Now at training I'm trying to actually stop and reward anything that I really like on course, (rather than just the predictable end of contacts and table) so dogs are probably getting the same amount of food, but maybe 5 or 6 pieces during the run rather than 5 or 6 pieces at the end of a run. The funniest comment I have had about that so far was someone who asked why I stopped and did that so many times as if I hadn't then I would have 'had a clear run'. (Not really my goal at training!)

Someone asked a similar question at the Greg Derrett seminar and he was saying that it is a bit of a 'buzz topic' in the US ATM as there are quite a few well known clicker trainers out there (although he didn't give specifics) who now believe that jackpots are not as effective as first thought and don't use them any more. Apparently there have been a couple of studies done that support this but again, he didn't give details. He didn't have a personal opinion on whether or not they are effective, but has never 'jackpotted' his dogs - even before this-as he believes that if the reinforcement schedule when learning is high enough then they are unnecessary. This concept would work well in agility training as there are many training opportunities for rapid fire treat delivery ('machine gunning') such as nose touches on target plate, etc. which would almost simulate the 'jackpot single treat delivery' method anyway, even though technically they are 'one behaviour one treat'. One thing that was amazing was the amount of food and play that his dogs actually got when working. I thought I rewarded mine very highly but after seeing what he does, I now think I have been a scrooge and am trying to improve in this area.

Yep, apparently Plasticoat is the cheapest place to get a tunnel from even if you're interstate. Around $210 last I heard. (Sorry to hijack the 2X2 weaves thread)

Did you get yours around a couple of months back? Sent interstate? Would explain a strange phone call I got asking me to run outside and weigh mine. Thought he'd finally lost the plot - but now it makes sense.