oakway

Will you stop yelling none of us deaf. We read the type not listen.

Maybe we should look towards Mendelsohn's Pea. I agree with Steve entirely.

If you want to stabilise the pen all you have to do is tie a few bricks around the sides or if you have the large concrete blocks about bring them in and tie the crate to them. :)

I'd agree that articulate breeders who line breed do so selectively, and for a reason. But historically, I think you'll find a lot of breeders (not the top eschelon) used the nearest acceptable dog . . . Even now, when it's relatively easy/cheap to travel or do AI, I suspect that there are quite a few people who can't resist the temptation to use one of the beautiful dogs that came out their lines over his half sister . . . or equivalent combinations. I'd be very surprised if close line breeding wasn't widespread on puppy farms. I'd love to see someone go through pedigree registrations and prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I think it's good to keep the bar high . . . and to make it shameful to line breed for convenience and cost reduction. That's a fair assumption. When the new breeding regulations came into force, that is the ones that the governing bodies said they would not register with out due consultation in some cases. It was given as a percentage as to the amount of in breeding done and it was very low. Can anyone remember what the percentage was ?. I have some memory that it was done with a Professor at one of the Sydney University's ???.

sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :)

Hi Cass, I would do it. Sorry people you may not understand but Cass will. I mated Gaby to Nero and as you know they are both by Wyatt. There is a link between their dams. If you are at Durack on the 4th come and see the pups they will amaze you with the quality.

I think it more important that you cared enough to enquire and take the dog to a vet.

The fact is that all dogs are individuals and should be treated that way. I have a breed that has low body fat and eats plenty of chicken frames and chicken mince. If I fed this to another breed it could be far to much fat. All it means that owners have to learn their dog requirements and stick to it. :)

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week. I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed. I would like to reply to you. About show dogs seeing the world for the first time as it may give many of you an insight to the way many of our Show Dogs lead their lives. Soon after the puppies are born we as breeders are looking for that RIGHT puppy to keep for ourselves and show. Many people may handle the pup as many other breeders may be invited to stack and give their opinion on the puppy. This will mean many people will be handling the pup. This selected pup will then be shown. This pup may possibly taken to show training where it will be handled by others and also get use to other dogs. Then off to the show where the dog will be crated or kept in a trolley or X pen. When it is called for its class it will be in an assembly are with other handlers and other dog's. It's number may be called by an assembly steward then passed onto the ring steward then passed onto being examined by the judge. If the pup is lucky and wins it may be sometimes passed onto another judge who may do the Group specials and if this pups wins at group level it will be passed onto the judge for Show specials. This pup has had all this exposure to all these people and don't forget this pup may be entered for a show the next day, so the process starts all over again. When the show season is in full swing we may get clusters of shows that last for days some over 10 days and don't forget many of these shows consist of Agricultural Show and we the dog people can often get stuck near side show ally. Just imagine all the show patrons and sights the dogs are exposed to. If you live on the Eastern seaboard may even travel you dogs to the major Royal shows, just think of the exposure the dogs get there plus the travelling weather it be in the car, the trailer or by air and don't forget the ship if you are travelling to Tasmania to do the shows there. Our show dog’s are usually very well socialised dogs. I am stating to wonder if we the reader's and posters are talking about two totally different aspects of re homing. The genuine breeder rehoming or a BYB dumping one they don't want. Their is a big difference as I would want mine to go to a very loving and caring home and may put restriction as to where that dog may go. Until "I" find the right home they stay with me. :) :clap: To me it seems that a lot of non-show people have very little idea of the lives of most show dogs. My dogs are show dogs for 2-3 days a week, the rest of the time they are pets. They do things that most dogs do with their humans. Plus all of the above which most family pets aren't exposed too. I would never try and argue that every breeder is the same, that would be impossible. I am only saying I know what the OP is talking about, registered breeders are not all the same and I personally met dogs that had show titles who had known health problems but used for breeding and weren't socialized. I've also since met breeders who would never think of doing this. They're all out there and being registered and having show titles is no guarantee that healthy, well socialized dogs will be provided. That's just the system as it currently stands. Lets face it we have a lot of people that are gaining a registered prefix from our controlling bodies and they may have purchased a pup and titled it no matter how long it took or where they had to take it to win. The dog may have some health and temperament problems even if they are man made ones and by the sheer virtue of the nature as to how these dogs may be handled and cared for. These, "maybe" the breeders that are causing the problems the OP is talking about. Some of these may be breeders that breed and sell for profit and they may never show again. They may breed from their bitch that should NEVER be bred from and keep the bitch pups and then in turn breed them. These are not what I call ethical registered breeders breeding for the betterment of the breed just a bunch of cowboy back yard breeders that happen to hold a prefix. Buyers beware and do your home work first not after you purchase. Also remember when you re home be aware that the dog may not have come from a great home in the first place. Readers you will have to forgive me, I only deal with and talk about the people that care.

My guess is that you may have fed to much protien to quickly. As Roo meat is low in fat it would not have been to rich. If you are changing a dogs diet always do it slowly by just adding a very small amount to start with. :)

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week. I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed. I would like to reply to you. About show dogs seeing the world for the first time as it may give many of you an insight to the way many of our Show Dogs lead their lives. Soon after the puppies are born we as breeders are looking for that RIGHT puppy to keep for ourselves and show. Many people may handle the pup as many other breeders may be invited to stack and give their opinion on the puppy. This will mean many people will be handling the pup. This selected pup will then be shown. This pup may possibly taken to show training where it will be handled by others and also get use to other dogs. Then off to the show where the dog will be crated or kept in a trolley or X pen. When it is called for its class it will be in an assembly are with other handlers and other dog's. It's number may be called by an assembly steward then passed onto the ring steward then passed onto being examined by the judge. If the pup is lucky and wins it may be sometimes passed onto another judge who may do the Group specials and if this pups wins at group level it will be passed onto the judge for Show specials. This pup has had all this exposure to all these people and don't forget this pup may be entered for a show the next day, so the process starts all over again. When the show season is in full swing we may get clusters of shows that last for days some over 10 days and don't forget many of these shows consist of Agricultural Show and we the dog people can often get stuck near side show ally. Just imagine all the show patrons and sights the dogs are exposed to. If you live on the Eastern seaboard may even travel you dogs to the major Royal shows, just think of the exposure the dogs get there plus the travelling weather it be in the car, the trailer or by air and don't forget the ship if you are travelling to Tasmania to do the shows there. Our show dog’s are usually very well socialised dogs. I am stating to wonder if we the reader's and posters are talking about two totally different aspects of re homing. The genuine breeder rehoming or a BYB dumping one they don't want. Their is a big difference as I would want mine to go to a very loving and caring home and may put restriction as to where that dog may go. Until "I" find the right home they stay with me. :)

I also agree with the above, with added observation over the years and that's all it is an observation, that dog's continually fed a high protien diet of mainly Roo and/or some Beef have ended up with kidney problems. Now don't shoot me down I would be the first to admit that these dogs may have had problems no matter what they have been fed. It just always seemed a bit strange to me. :)

Alls well that ends well. The best ever news to start the day.

Your puppy can go out now and the vet is indeed a well informed vet. Vaccine starts working immediatly it is injected. If your puppy was originally vaccinated close to 8 weeks all the better. Your puppy may have had the last vaccination it will ever need. It is now known that vaccinating yearly is detremental to the dogs health. If you are concerned at all about your puppy ask your vet to draw some blood and have it titre test for antibodies. This is what tells you that the vaccine has worked. Aso a low reading titre does not necessarily mean the dog need vaccinating it just may mean that the dog has not been exposed to the desease. If the dog is exposed the anti bodies will multiply and kill the desease. On the other hand if get a high reading it will tell you that the dog has come in contact with a desease and the anti bodies have done there job in multiplying and killing the desease off. Hope this helps in some way.

After all my years in the dog world I know that, but it is the easiest way to explain it new comers, till they get a better grasp on things.

We have at the moment in this country 2 types of registration Main Registration......... this means you can show and breed with your dog. Limited Registration..... this means NO showing or breeding. Now some people say papers or no papers. This could mean they will give main registration, and no papers may mean just that, no papers will be available for a pet puppy. But.....in some cases they may mean limited. It is up to the purchaser to find out what the breeder actually means. Yes, the price may vary greatly due to the quality of the puppy/dog being purchased. Different states have different rules as to weather you MUST sell with papers or you MAY sell without. It would be best to find out what your state governing body allows. We do have a neuter registry but I think that is self explanatory All financial members of their state body have issued to them a membership card.

Hi, I haven't exported for some years now, but I was told recently that you can't get a animals out of the country these days with out using an agent. Don't know if this correct or not but it may be well worth a phone call or e mail to an agent. We have one on this forum that I have used and was more than happy with. "Wayrod"

I totally agree with you, oakway. All our dogs in recent times have been retired showdogs from ethical registered breeders. Whose only aim was to place their retired dogs in good pet homes they've screened thoroughly.....and which are likely to 'stick'. I've also noticed that, until just the right home comes along, they will not part with a dog. You are right that dogs sourced like this can give new owners many hours of pleasure. The critical thing, is how they've been raised by their breeders. DOLers, in previous posts, have described how puppies need to be socialised.....and also how all the parent dogs need that continually, too. It's not only a matter of welfare as the dogs need to experience being companion dogs, the same as any pet dog. But also it's critical for how the adult dogs, especially the mothers, interact with & teach their puppies. Our retired showdogs, now desexed pets, have come from backgrounds like that.... & are indeed the wonderful dogs you describe. I'd love to take credit for their socially confident, affectionate, & sensible behaviours. But I'm always confessing that they came like that, from the ethical registered breeders who raised them. Thank you Mita it is nice to know that we have people like you out there that appreciate all the efforts that go into making a top show dog and brood bitch. But untill I can find homes like yours mine are staying right here with me.

Just hope he meets you at the gate as you get home.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test. A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost. How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem. Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health. My god how many times does a person have to tell you that we are not mind readers or dog health readers. On the day the dog would have to be healthy to win. What happens after that is in the lap of the gods. And I did answer the question. I did mention how would a vet know unless the dog was sick???. How would a vet know the breed standards to evaluate the dogs. How would a vet know a dog was sick unless you took the animal in to see them. We have vets that are capable of judging Best In Show and do you believe that they are going bring out their thermometer and stethoscope to check the dog first. I'll bet their are plenty of Best in show winners that got old and sick just like us but when awarded they may have been in the prime of life.

My screen disappeared while trying to reply to the above. Which I whole heartedly concur with.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me. The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that. I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so. Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" ) Of course it is, dogs can be rotated between house and kennels, go to shows, go to training, even Breeders have family & friends who visit, interact with dogs etc Busy large kennels often have activity all day, as opposed to a single dog in a backyard with working owners, you may be surprised how much time is actually spent doing activities with and around the dogs. Simple daily routines like cleaning runs etc which have to be done equal interaction.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test. A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost. How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog. Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do. Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave. Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers. Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated. Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them. To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!. Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue. Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault. Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure. Well honestly that would say a lot more about the breeder than about people like the OP wouldn't it? I suspect many of the large scale breeding establishments may do this anyway. I think this thread has raised a valid point in questioning how well ex show and breeding dogs who have been largely raised in kennels will fit into a home environment. As someone who was looking at acquiring an older dog it was not something I had really considered and I appreciate this point being discussed. Also agree it is a good point. I would not have thought it would be such as issue with ex-show dogs as there have to be socialised to be in the show environment with so many other dogs and people. I would suggest it would me more an an issue with ex-breeding dogs that have not ever been in shows or any dog sport competitions. Ahhhhhh, but in many cases our breeding stock is the dog we show. Well it is in my case. I have ever bred from a bitch that did not have her Aust Ch. Title. Many of my brood bitch have been grand Champions. I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog. Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do. Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave. Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers. Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated. Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them. To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!. Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue. Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault. Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.