superminty

Shoot, that means 5 weeks to get my outruns sorted...Cash is allowed back on sheep this week so fingers crossed he stays in one piece.

My vote for versatility is the egg over the peanut. It is really easy to stablise the egg to make it easier on the dog i.e. I wedge mine between a couch and a dog bed, or hold it with my knee against the couch etc. You can also let air out to make the surface flatter and then pump it up to increase the degree of difficulty. Then when you feel the dog needs more of a challenge, you just lessen the degree of support you use. I use mine for both rehab with one dog with a previous cruciate injury and for my kelpie for fitness/strength, particularly in the shoulders, as they need a lot of shoulder strength for the quick turns required for herding.

Good to have a break from time to time I think. The dogs come back stronger and more mature, and some of the technical stuff has sunk in for the humans :-) It's also so nice when the dogs start to get a handle on driving. I never thought I would get close, but Cash is now really confident driving sheep away from me. Just need to get a handle on his obnoxious behaviour around off balance stops now!

Thanks everyone for their replies. FYI, I am quite aware of the legalities of the use of e-collars in Vic. That's a non-issue in this case. I have contacted a few behaviourists and have some recommendations, just trying the DOL brains trust as well :-) I'd be training this dog to respond to the stim/vibrate as a cue to pay attention to the handler, so the handler can then decide if a further cue if required i.e. come, drop etc. Ideally we'll get to the stage where the dog will be able run off lead (personally I would prefer that only be in a fenced area or with a long line attached just in case - but I am quite risk averse). Apparently you can get vibration collars with variable levels. I really can't see how that would be much different to an e-collar, if you assume that you start at the level where the dog can only just perceive the vibration, and then condition it to mean good things. An increase in the level of vibration might be aversive to the dog, just like an increase in the stim level. I've never let anyone use an e-collar before using it on themselves. I can't feel the levels most dogs work on, and even when I can feel it, it feels...weird...not painful, just weird. I could probably condition myself to feel pretty good about it with the timely delivery of some chocolate :laugh: Thanks to those too that say the vibration feature has scared some dogs - want to avoid that if possible.

Really? Why? I suppose you haven't used low stim e-collars before then. Also can't see why the fact that the dog is deaf would have any bearing on the decision to use an e-collar.

Hi all, I've searched old topics but didn't find quite what I was looking for. I am helping a friend with training their deaf dog and have been asked to research vibrating collars. I found that people seem to recommend e-collars used on low stim over vibration only collars as they tend to less aversive. The collar will be an attention getter, the dog already has basic hand signals established. Has anyone had any expereience using either type of collar with a deaf dog? And if so, what brand did you use? I don't think I'll have a problem selling an e-collar to the owners, and they don't attend Dogs Vic affiliated clubs but I do want to get the right product, given the cost of these things. Thanks.

That's great Janba, must make things a heap easier for you. I can see that shedding may be a bit more challenging than on foot though! Lol, yes when I read it back, it sounded a bit wrong. Although my clients are low maintenance, just not the rest :laugh: I've been doing that drill too - I sit on a milk crate with a pan of grain and have Cash drive them away, then call him off and let them come back, rinse, repeat. He thinks it's great fun keeping the sheepies from their pellets. I think we can let you come back for a trial - that Pebbles is our cattle star after all!

Hi Tazar. Diggers is a good place to start a dog, Dave's a great trainer and they should have some fun. If they are more serious i.e. want to continue on and/or trial, I recommend Double K Herding in South Gippsland - a way to go but well worth it - should add a disclaimer as I instruct for them sometimes and train in a similar way. Website is here http://www.herdingtraining.com/ Dogs that have been to Double K and are up to working in the bigger paddock may shortly have the option of training in the north of Melbourne from Feb - I suggest keeping an eye on the Double K facebook page for details.

We had another run today & had a great time again, just thought I'd let you know Ness . Roll on Trudy clinic, counting down the sleeps . Yippee, looking forward to seeing you and your puppies. Cash is so much more settled in general now we have regular sheep access. I am getting out there minimum twice a week, sometimes more and gee it makes a difference! I have a couple of regular clients to help pay for them, although they are extremely low maintenance (and pretty fat - they are good doers - the sheep, not the clients!). Worked on flanks today - me and sheep in the middle, flanking the dog around and asking him to turn in at various points. That part was easy, getting him to take off balance flanks not so much! He is extremely sticky on one particular side - once he gets to that natural balance point, I have really struggled to get him to take an off balance flank. But I've done two sessions now on it and today he really nailed it

Yep, got 10 of Kate's in Mickleham on a vacant house block. It's pretty cool, I'm definitely getting much faster progress now! Surprise surprise. That's a pretty typical kelpie habit too, the switching sides behind you thing. You end up all wrapped up in the lead! How's Amber going anyway? Healthy again I hope.

Where have all my herding buddies gone Luckily, being an only child, I play well on my own

Thought I'd rescue this thread from page 3 :laugh: Posted this in the kelpie thread but non-kelpie people may not venture in there very often :D Here is a short video of Cash and I practising outruns today - he has always run very tight on his outruns but this is starting to really come along now.

Corvus - great posts. I sometimes struggle to get my head around some of your ideas :laugh: , but you've hit the nail on the head in this thread. :laugh: I think you'll find Nekhbet understands the principles pretty well.

Actually (in Vic at least) there is some bias against dogs bred for 3 sheep trials, as their ability to do farm work has in some cases been diminished by breeding for such a specialist trial type. If people are doing farm work wth their 3 sheep trial dog, then I salute them - that's what they should be breeding for. Not always the case however. How often do you need to move 3 extremely flighty, terrified lambs through obstacles in a wide open field? I'd like more skill sets in my dog.

It's personal preference, I find the clicker is more precise, but then I use both as markers, just slightly differently from each other (more like sheena was describing). I have a habit of getting flies caught in my throat, so a verbal marker is not always precise for me :laugh: Dont lure, move further away - IMO, the look back behavour is stronger if the dog works it out on his own. Getting the dog to understand the game is the hardest bit of this, you'll be able to move closer pretty quickly once he understands what you want. My thoughts on jackpotting - a few treats, delivered one after the other, to keep his attention on you for a little longer might help, but to me it says you are too close to start with. Oh, and use really good treats! I'd only do this the first few times I try the game though, or if there is no way to get him under threshold (happens, I know). But really, if you are under threshold, it is ok if he goes back to looking, provided it doesn't become a stare/eye behaviour.

Leslie McDevitt's "Look at That" game is an option. Having a strong eyed and quite predatory kelpie myself, I have found it very useful as it helps interrupt the predatory sequence (for herding breeds, it is truncated to eye, stalk, chase and back to eye again) and gives the dog another option to try other than move further though the sequence. You do need to cue it far enough away from the trigger that the stalking behaviour hasn't started yet, if possible i.e. at alert stage, which comes before eye - i.e. the dog has just noticed the trigger. Once the dog understands the game, things often go a bit easier.

Sorry, no recommendations for puppy school that side of town, but generally pups just need their first vaccination before starting puppy school - although it is always worth checking if the floor the classes will be held on will be cleaned/disinfected prior to classes, just in case. My advice is to also look for a puppy school where the instructor primarily uses positive reinforcement techniques, and to avoid ones that have pups predominantly off lead - IMO small periods of off lead play between 2 pups, supervised by the instructor would be ok, but not a free-for-all at any stage.

Thanks, I have passed on these details already but it's good to have a personal recommendation.

He's pretty set on a Lab. I'll pass on the LabraDOG details, thanks.

There was like a million sites for lab rescues - ok, a slight exaggeration, but there were a lot. As I am not restricted to looking in SA only, that's probably why more results came up. Also no resident dog to need to get along with, which also makes the search easier. Plus I like personal recommendations, so I know the organisation is going to be ok to deal with. Thanks everyone, I am passing these recommendations on to my friend, we are both grateful for all your help. DOL brains trust always wins out.

Thanks everyone for their recommendations. I did a bit of googling and was completely overwhelmed by the choice! So thought I'd go with organisations people have had good experiences with. Any more personal recommendations welcome. Also giggling at tdierikx offering their own dog - I have made similar comments many times when people are looking for a kelpie :laugh:

Hi all, Posting this here as more people will see it. I have a friend in Adelaide who is looking to adopt an older Labrador Retriever. They're after an older dog - between 2 and 4 years perhaps - not a puppy, but not something too old either. It's an active home, with someone home most of the time. Does anyone have any suggestions of where to start looking? I was thinking breed rescue or contacting the state breed club, but thought I'd ask for recommendations here first. Melbourne dogs would be a possibilty too as my friend's sister lives here and is happy to take the dog across, and of course then I'd be able to help her choose the right dog. Thanks in advance.

For me, "out" means "release your stock". This might mean move further out from them i.e. he's in or about to hit the flight zone, or take your eyes off them - if he is being pushy and staring at them as he flanks. I use it in a few ways: * as a generic "go": his main job when casting is to find and stay out of the flight zone til he hits balance, but he gets to choose the direction if I use "out" * to re-direct out of the flight zone, in which case he needs to release his stock (eyes out) to re-position * as a correction: if I say "out" while the dog is working, he is too tight and needs to release his stock. I use pressure to make it uncomfortable for him when I use it in this way, because I want him to seek to avoid that pressure next time, and do it right without a re-direction. It seems like it means lots of different things when I write it out like that, but it really simply means "find and stay out of the flight zone". Cast commands (I call them flanks) should have an inbuilt "out" i.e. what a flank command means is "release your stock and move in a particular direction". Or, if it makes more sense "move in a particular direction around the flight zone". Of course this doesn't occur automatically, so I see no problem using the "out" to help the dog understand what a flank command really means, during the process of training flanks. It's a reminder that the dog has two jobs - 1. go in a particular direction, and 2. find and stay out of the flight zone. The way I would use "out" with a flank/cast command is (assuming the dog understands what you want him to do when you say "out") give my flank command, let him start out that way, and if he is running narrow, help him get the shape right by saying "out". It's a tool to use when things aren't going perfect, but you want to fade it asap, so the dog learns to find the flight zone on their own, without you telling them when they're narrow.

OK, well, apparently "try and see" is a pretty good strategy when it comes to moving up classes for me. Today Cash and I had our first Advanced A sheep run and we got a pass! Score of 71 - it was not a pretty run but he got around and now I know what to work on i.e. flanking off a drive away and how on earth you do the cross drive... Given that our total training on on Advanced course is nil (I train skills, not courses, and hadn't even thought about how to do the cross drive as I know he's not quite ready), I was pretty pleased with the effort. Second run was pretty nice until - you guessed it - the cross drive - when he took the wrong flank three times in a row I decided to call it. Kelpie brain properly exploded by then :laugh:

Congrats Janba! I will have to make a trip interstate some year and meet all you guys. We have our first Advanced A sheep run next weekend - I have done no preparation at all so it wil be very much a "try and see" kind of run, but I am looking forward to it.