superminty

Quick brag from me - Minty got her endurance title at the Dally Club trial today and did it easy as pie Her heart rate started at 124 and dropped to 96 after the first leg, which is where it stayed. Temp also dropped slightly. All she wanted to do when we fiinished is play rope not tired at all. I did ok too It was a perfect day - clear and cool and only clouded over towards the end. Big to the Dalmatian Club for the organisation, it ran like a dream and was great fun.

Thanks for your replies, helps a lot. I think I'll use 'Watch" and then just my hand signal/cue - if she's already focusing on me then no need to use the verbal, but gives me a back up if things go down hill. Although I do like the idea of "Walkies!" Negative association through poor training technique was what got us into this mess to start with Never again.

Hey all Cannot find anything in the rules that clarifies this to my satisfaction. Can I use a word other than "heel" for heeling? Reason I ask is I am re-training heeling (again) and was considering chucking a whole new word in there (as I should if I was serious about it). Would I be penalised for using, say, "Watch"? It's the closest word to what I want from her as if she's watching, she's heeling. And the best for me memory wise. Can't use "close" or "here", which were other words I considered, as they already mean something else. The only other option is just using my cue - which would be ideal - but she does have a habit of shutting down in the ring due to my terrible nerves and I'd like a back up plan

Agree with this. Although I should point out that this is the first dog I've trained using an e-collar. The application of the stim signals to the dog that "something" will be reinforced - it has to be, coz the stim has to come off at some stage. The release of pressure is the reinforcer, and it's a powerful one - and when you need the reliabilty that I do, having a dog with "issues", a low desire to please and with high prey drive that has proved near impossible to channel, that's pretty darn important. Been thinking about this a bit - now I remember why I stay away from DOL, so distracting K9 said something similar earlier (somewhere): Applying the stim before the command gives the opportunity to mark the precise behaviour (by releasing the stim). This adds clarity to the dog's learning. The dog now knows *exactly* what turned the stim off (if your timing is spot on). I have two perceived issues with using the stim after the command while teaching an exercise: 1. Applying stim after a command has been given (and not complied with, otherwise the stim would not occur) gives the dog an opportunity to fail. In fact, the dog has to fail to get the stim. I prefer to let my dogs learn at a level where they win the majority of the time in teaching phase and to some extent training phase. Once we get to the upper level of training/moving into proofing, I'm happy for the dog to fail, however at this level I imagine/expect failure would not happen very often. Perhaps a "perfect world" scenario, but hey, that's my aim. 2. A lot can happen in 1-3 seconds. I have erred in shaping with a clicker by being out with my timing by 1/2 a second - although I have trained a very nice head-down-with-your-nose-touching-a-precise-part-of-the-couch...oops What happens in the time between the command, the non-compliance, the application of the stim and the eventual compliance can vary greatly - and I believe this could affect clarity and precision of communication, potentially confuse the dog and increase the time it takes to get the behaviour you want. Really enjoying this discussion by the way, thanks for kick-starting my brain, it's been on holidays lately

Aha, that "marking" of the behaviour was what I was trying to get at but couldn't articulate I am a clicker fan and use it extensively. I think the timing I've developed through using a clicker has really helped with the e-collar stuff - it's about knowing what you want and reinforcing the precise moment that occurs. Makes sense to the dog too from my perspective. He really "gets" the work we do with the e-collar, just like he "gets" clicker work. The second part of the quote above is what I do (kind of) - I also reward with food/tug (drive currently being developed) when teaching exercises as I found it speeded up the learning process. While training I still use food rewards from time to time but tend to use the release from pressure (stim off) as the main reward. When I want to sharpen something up, out comes the food again, when I've got the response I want, I go back to relying on the pressure release.

This is my method for a dog that didn't already tug: Note - I didn't use soft food because I don't want my dog to self-reward i.e. soft food will ooze out through the mesh. Chicken wings/turkey wings etc hold their shape and give the dog a taste but won't ooze out. 1. Wing in tug, tease dog with it, when they make mouth contact, mark/praise and reward with the wing from the tug - do this a couple times then start asking for harder/more prolonged tugging before rewarding with the wing. 2. Then once the dog is reliably tugging to your satisfaction, reward intermittently i.e. every 2nd tug, then every 3rd, so on and so forth. 3. Then start to fade the food - I use chicken necks chopped into pieces in a bag in my pocket. I present the tug, dog tugs, I mark and reward with the food from my pocket. The aim is to build drive for the tug itself without having to have food in it. Hope this help.

Entered Lucky it's a long weekend so I have two days to recover :rolleyes: Dog will be fine I'm sure.

I have one of those starter tugs, has been a god-send for my un-toy-but-highly-food-motivated dog - I used turkey wings to start with, then moved to chicken necks chopped into pieces and am now phasing out having the food in the tug. Love them

Lol, I know how you feel re: long replies and gremlins - I've lerant to always write up my replies in Word and cut and paste them in - unreliable internet's a pain. Just wondering, how do you speed up compliance? Do you just hit the stim sooner and sooner after giving the command? I've found using the stim first gets super fast compliance in very few repetitions - 1 or 2 in my case (once the dog worked out how to control the stim). I'm stimming (is that a word?) 1/2 - 1 second before the command. I just wonder how long it takes using a P+ stim to get blindingly fast responses i.e. assuming at first you give the dog a chance to comply, how long before you apply a stim?

Just wanted to highlight this bit - for me, the bolded bit is the clearest difference. Seeing as training (again, for me) is about the dog achieving success, the less opportunities to practise failure the better. Later on, once the reliability is trained, the stim becomes a P+ i.e. a correction. Wouldn't using the collar as P+ only be just like using any other correction, except that you can use it in more situations (i.e. long distances)? Whereas using it as R- teaches the dog to figure it out on their own? I'm interested in feedback from those that think otherwise or have a different perspective. Or from anyone who can explain it better than I can I am a shaping nut (love it), and I liken it to a dog that is accustomed to shaping - they figure stuff out on their own, through the provision of feedback (i.e. marker) and the learning is retained (I believe) to a higher degree than a dog trained through "traditional" P+ methods (for want of a better explanation). Please note that my dog is used to shaping and has "learnt how to learn" so to speak, which made progression to the e-collar easier, I reckon. My e-collar trained (well, training) dog is never afraid to make a mistake with the collar on - he has the power to turn the stim off - and the responses I get from him are almost identical to the way he responds to shaping. This is something I've just noticed recently. I used the collar to teach a "new" behaviour - the recall (trust me, it was a new behaviour ) and the process felt just like shaping, with the exception that I showed him what I wanted a few times first (R+) – then moved onto: stim, help dog to get it right a couple of times, release, reward, then once he's got a rough idea, stim, wait, let him try stuff, release when he gets it right, bang - the dog has it. The difference the stim makes is he works harder to figure out what I want (in order to release it - no such pressures from shaping, unless you count frustration ) and his responses are solid, more so than other P+ methods I have used with him (short explanation - taught "sit" with R+ and moved to P+ to proof, did not get the reliability I need - he is DA). I do use a stim as P+ when proofing commands but the level of response is at a much higher level when I start proofing than with previous methods. I would consider using an e-collar as purely P+ if I was going to proof a known command – and I agree it would improve reliability. However, the process using it as R- first seems to me to be much shorter – and therefore preferable (as all learning is stressful and my aim is to make things as easy as possible, for me and the dog). Interested in people's opinions on this.

[quote name='Pippi' date='20th Apr 2009 - 05:56 PM' post='3612904' This weekend at Geelong Pippi and I managed 2 more Excellent Jumping passes, at last achieving our Jumping Dog Excellent Title. Now to start work on the Agility Titles.....cursed contacts...... Wow, just saw this, congrats Now you can play with us in Masters Don't worry, I'll be in Ex Agility for ever... And congrats to Jess too on Darcy's title haul, what a team!

In my experience, attending group classes with a DA dog has been invaluable. There is no way we would be where we are now without it. BUT: *I am well-known at the club (trained a dog to the top class) so they know I know my stuff. *I am NOT shy in letting A: the instructer, and B: the class know that my dog is NOT friendly and to kindly keep their distance unless I ok it. I will also word each new member to my level up on what the issue is. I find people take it well, but then we are in a level where the dogs are largely under control. *I get there early and wait off to the side while the hooligans arrive (I know them all!) and work on focus. I only go down to the class once they're ready to start. I place my dog either on the end of the line or between dogs he is comfortable around (note: not friendly with, but I know the handler has control and I know the dog is safe). *I am largely left alone to do my own thing should I choose i.e. I will opt out of some exercises depending on how my dog is going. He has good days and bad days. *I am happy to explain my methods to anyone who asks, and have had a few people approach me after class to discuss their own "problem dog". It's not that the instructors aren't knowledgable, it's just that I have my own program and it bl**dy works! Oh, and I am happy to YELL at people who disregard my instructions. It's amazing how quickly people pull up when you shout "STOP" at them! I have no problem with being the "rude lady with the kelpie". It keeps my dog safe! The biggest problem I have is that dog does not look "not friendly". He is calm and attentive to me. He will wag his tail at certain dogs (note: desire to interact - tells you nothing about the type of interaction he is planning!). He is supremely well behaved in fact at club. So people will try to approach. I very politely say "sorry, my dog isn't friendly", move away and let them think what they want. My club does not have a specific policy on aggressive dogs and, IMO, doesn't handle them very well. For me, it's a de-sensitisation and proofing opportunity only, however after 2 years of work I can now join in the regular exercises if I choose to.

Just wanted to put in another vote for Click to Calm, also Brenda Aloff's Aggression in Dogs :D Read through all the exercises and choose which will work for you. Those two books helped me so much - I now have a dog that I am comfortable walking in public - I am also now glad to see dogs approach as it means I have an opportunity to proof my dog's reponses. It's almost disappointing when you go for a walk and don't see a single dog ;) I no longer tense up when I see another dog - the counter conditioning work I have done has also counter conditioned me! The sight of another dog is the trigger to look at my dog, read his signals and react appropriately. There's no time to get tense Good luck with it

Well done Bring on top dog :wink:

Oh I've been waiting for one of these threads My kelpie Cash got his Herding Started A course title on sheep last weekend, he worked a treat with only a few feral moments - he really is a different dog to this time last year. Bombed out on ducks though - he completely forgot how to move the little quackers, I had to laugh, he was so confused. Congrats to others on their achievements, bet ths year goes just as fast as last year :cool:

I'm entered on Saturday - 2 sheep A courses and 1 ducks A course. What was I thinking! Praying all the hard work we did over summer (i.e. very little, although he did actually get on sheep a couple times) will pay off

Ahh, thank you! The link I was using worked last year but I much prefer the one you've given me All better now.

Just wondering whether anyone else was having this problem? When I click on the usual link for the Victorian agility site (where all the schedules are), I get this: Index of /vcaagility Name Last modified Size Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parent Directory 07-Dec-2008 02:43 - I'm using this link http://www.geocities.com/vcaagility/

I'm curious. What's wrong with letting dogs play in the dog park, except for the risk factor regarding unknown dogs? Is there anything negative about too much socialising? shoemonster: I was devastated when I realised my DA dog Cash would never be able to "play with friends" - I enjoyed watching my first dog Minty play in the dog park and thought that Cash would be missing out on something (humanising much?) - then I figured out (through trial and error) that not all dogs want to play with other dogs, some dogs don't want anything to do with other dogs and really, my "pack' (and I use the term loosely) is all my dog really needs to be fulfilled. I socialised Cash extensively, however he just doesn't like other dogs and is much happier now that I don't put him in situations that he is uncomfortable with. So no dog parks for us. I will still work Minty in parks, but she is completely focused on me. So it's not that there's anything wrong with letting dogs play, provided you weigh up the risks, it's just that dogs dont need to play. In addition, with performance dogs (back to the point of the thread), the handler should be the best thing in the dog's life - some dogs, given the opportunity to play regularly and without restriction may find playing with other dogs more appealing than their owners. Having said that, I think most performance dog owners would have a suitable drive/reward method that outweighs the pleasure of playing with other dogs - so play time is "down time" for the dog. Just my thoughts.

Erny: that's the plan - right now, he lights up at the sight of the toy - before he's had a chance to see whether there's food in it - so me thinks my plan is working

I just got myself one of those tug-it starters for my seriously unmotivated (by toys) kelpie - started off with treats inside but found he just licked or mouthed it, didn't offer a tug, so... I put a turkey wing inside it, dragged it round the ground a bit, let the dog chase it, have a sniff and a lick - no reward. Used a marker and normal treat to reward mouthing, which progressed pretty quickly to a tentative tug - which got him the turkey wing. Next time out, he offered a good tug with a weight shift back (which is what I want) - and got the wing. The turkey wing gave him something to grab hold off, it was something he really wanted and something that he could just taste through the mesh but couldn't actually get any bits of food from (as you would if you used treats that crumbled). Should see his eyes light up when I pull that toy out now The problem with crumbly treats is that the dog can self reward by chewing the toy, rather than tugging - as little pieces of food may come out when they chew. I still want to be able to control when the dog gets the reward - he knows where it is, I show him how to get it - he offers the correct behaviour, I give him the reward by getting the food out of the toy. Everyone wins.

Just heard they've moved the start time forward to 7am, plan to be finished by 1:30 - that should get around the worst of the heat at least Then we get the rest of the day to go to the beach

I'll wear my bathers...

I'll be there. Have a working spot for the box work and single advanced day. However, I've just realised that Minty is really quite unfit after Xmas Still a nut, but tiring easily. Bugger about the weather too.

Congrats LP, glad to see others had some success in agility, Minty today decided that my "table" command meant run to the table and sit - on the ground However, we did finally get our Masters Jumping title - nice to get it before the end of the year. Bring on 2009