superminty

Yes and as the flight zone is fluid so where the edge is is some circumstances is where it is in other spots. Stepping backwards can relieve pressure and settle sheep if they are suddenly feeling more threatened such as at the mouth of an obstacle. We are not talking about walking backwards for metres and metres but say 2-10 dogs steps. I can see how the backwards walking could work but it is just not something I would teach. Down here it is something we are trying to get people NOT to teach! Hence why I find it interesting that is is desirable to other people. Instead I teach my dog to find that flight zone and adjust to it. If he is too close and the stock are being threatened/stressed, I would flank him out - a clear and instant release of pressure to settle the stock. I put the responsibility of finding the flight zone on my dog. If he gets it wrong, he gets flanked out to try again. Whe he is flanked out, I expect him to completely release those stock - lateral or backwards body movement, eyes averted. If he doesn't, he isnt allowed to leave. Once he hits the new edge, he can turn in and apply pressure again where I require it (indicated using a balance cue). As I said earlier, just a difference in methods. I expect him to work out where the flight zone is coz I have no idea most of the time It's much more obvious when driving. When fetching, you become the lead sheep and the flight zone is drastically reduced.

Walk backwards while keeping his eye on the sheep. There are times when you want to ease the pressure a bit but not change the angle of force such as sometimes in the mouth of an obstacle or sometimes when driving. When he is fetching I do arc back to get distance. I actually expect him to never take his eyes off the sheep as if he does and they break he won't be quick enough to cover them properly and he responds to a break much quicker than I can command him to. This is on non dogged sheep. Interesting. Different methods I guess. I get how you would want to ease pressure sometimes but I see a lot of dogs that walk backwards and the pressure does not actually diminish. I do use a balance cue so I can ask for a flank and re-position the dog exactly where I need him, so the angle stays the same, but the pressure has decreased. When flanking I expect the dog to only be checking in where the stock are. Most of the time he should have his gaze averted. Direct eye contact only occurs when I want pressure applied. With light stock, he would spend more time with his gaze averted than he would looking at the stock. I have never worked completely un-dogged sheep however.

Camp was great - had a ball and worked some lovely dogs. Best part though was having Cash in the run inside the house yard with 10 other dog roaming around! All of whom went and said hello, and no nasties at all. He even was polite to the two puppies! A 12 week old Aussie Shepherd pup took a real shine to him - just sat down outside the run while Cash looked at me and barked as if to say "Get this puppy away from me!" In the meantime, the pup's sire was standing guard in the backgournd, ready to come to the rescue if need be. I reckon he figured the run was just a giant crate and he was perfectly safe, so he may as well be nice for a change. Was very pleased with my boy's behaviour, he didn't look askance at any dog once. Question on this - do you mean walking backwards without taking his eye off the sheep? Would that be to get more distance? I would always ask my dog to release the pressure and flank back if I needed more distance.

Thanks Erny, will keep that possibility in mind.

Thank you thank you!

You might be surprised JulesP. The way a dog works sheep is often no indication of how they work ducks. Cash is very full on with the sheep (and cattle now it seems) but very very soft on ducks. Also much more intense. I also love how he adapts between stock types. If a sheep gives him a hard time, he is quick to step up and sort it out. With ducks however, it's as if he knows he can't go for a grip/bite - he was hissed at and pecked by one the other week and he was very patient - just held his ground and used eye to move the offending duck on. I was really proud of him

Hi all, Quick question for e-collar users, as per topic title. Can you use an e-collar under water i.e. for a dog that is swimming? I have a Dogtra 1900, so it is waterproof I know, but I was just concerned that there may be issues with the application of a stim while the collar is submerged.

Here is a quick clip of Cash working cattle the other day. He is still very puppy-like on them - lacking a little confidence I do believe But he is improving. He struggles with the bigger mob, he works 4 or 5 quite nicely, coz they stick together. When they string out, he gets a bit confused. Gotta love a heading dog, I never manage to actually take the cattle anywhere coz he just heads them off! Something else to work on. He is quite happy to let sheep "escape" now, and ducks to some extent, but when those cows take off, he can't resist.

Love it. My girl is like that - won't sleep on the bed or touching me. The kelpie on the other hand would be in the sleeping bag, using my pillow. I would be lucky to get a spot! Hence he sleeps in the car.

I'll be camping. Off to buy a tent this morning! Last time I went away with a dog I borrowed my parents tent and the dog ate a hole in the side of it This time the dog will be sleeping in the car!

I'll be there. Got some exercises for you guys to try too

Did another session this arvo and managed to get a tiny bit of the figure 8 action on video. Bless him for trying.

I have 110 ducks to break in for trialling tomorrow Cash will be working ducks in his sleep after that Had some fun with the sheepies yesterday. I split a couple off because they were too heavy (makes setting them really hard when all they want to do is follow you around!) and put them in the pen. Then we had to move the rest of the sheep off the pen where their buddies were. They did not want to go! So Cash got a good lesson in applying and holding pressure. I had him walk in to the heads and lay down and just hold the pressure. He tends to want to dive in and then blow out straight away, but I want him to hold pressure, not escape it. The sheep were not happy - lowering their heads and stamping at him. He did really well, used plenty of eye and eventually got those sheep out of the corner. Also did a little driving - about 5 metres, really nicely done. His sides are coming along, he will still yield whether I am inside or outside the flight zone, which I am thrilled about. If only he would lay down when asked

I only wish this worked in reverse. I managed to teach a really lovely UD box to Cash (who will never trial) in a few short sessions. With Minty it has taken over a year and she has only recently really got it!

Aha, I knew I'd read something similar recently! I was really stunned at the complexity of the behaviour - it was not a simple movement! Just like Gilbert's dumbell retrieve. People spend lots of time teaching these things!

So, to amuse myself over the break (week off ), I have been working through the 2 x 2 weave method with Cash. Had a few little set backs, so after a slightly frustrating session where we achieved nothing and Cash lacked enthusiasm, I decided to give him a break and let my old agility dog, Minty, out for a play on the weaves. I put Minty through a set of 4 weaves a few times. Of course now she is retired she can nail a weave entry from anywhere Cash was still around (usually they are separated during training), just watching, following me around and generally getting in the way Put Minty away, and decided to break it up with Cash by doing a free shaping session using the weave poles, so pretty much right back to basics to see whether I could get some enthusiasm back. Well. The third behaviour he tried (after looking at the poles and touching them with his nose) was weaving (of a sort). I was shocked! Only had two poles out, and all I wanted him to do was go though them in a certain direction. Instead I got a really lovely figure 8 around the poles, wrapping round nice and tight. He has never offered a similar behaviour before in a shaping session, and I have not taught him to weave though my legs or anything similar. It is entirely possible that he watched Minty weaving and though he'd give something similar a go. Wish I'd videoed it! Just wondering whether anyone else's dogs imitate each other? If you let your dogs watch each other when you are training, do you reckon they pick up things the other dog is taught through imitation?

Minty is the same, was fine for years, then two years ago someone let off fireworks in our street - I was out and came home to a dog covered in blood from pulling palings off the side gate to get out. Luckily she didn't get past the front gate, which is metal. For the last two years, she has been completely freaked any time there are fireworks. She has improved in the last few months and at least has stopped ripping apart fences! My kelpie just barks a bit then goes to sleep. Pretty much his attitude to life really.

I almost never take my dogs out together (I have two). My kelpie (problem child) is dog-dog reactive and I prefer to simply concentrate on him than have to deal with two - even though the problem child is rather well behaved these days and my older girl Minty is an angel and beautifully behaved on and off the lead. I also much prefer to take Minty out on her own becasue she is so often over shadowed by me having to deal with the problem child. Taking her out on her own means she gets to go places he cannot (due to off lead dogs) and really enjoy herself. I stress far too much taking them out together - too busy scanning for off lead dogs in order to keep my problem child safe. I take them out together when I have a friend/mum to help though

The only herding DVDs I own/have seen are Lynn Leach's http://www.downriver.org/ You're probably better off getting a couple of books.

"I have no interest in learning how to teach my dog anything" Classic

Another great day training yesterday. Had a little go on the calves - only 4 this time and we were in the A course yard. Cash's confidence is right up now that he has figured out how to get them to move. He is quite good at getting them out of corners and off fences. Not so good at getting them to go in a straight line in the open though. I feel they work quite similar to ducks, despite the size difference! Lots more driving and not much fetching required. Not sure I want cows fetched to me anyhow! We then had a few sessions teaching "back" in the round yard with great success. I remembered to teach it with me standing inside and outside of the flight zone, so he understands that a flank is along the edge of the flight zone regardless of where I am standing. Had super heavy sheep though and they kept following me back to the dog when I set him! I had to stand behind him when sending him so they wouldnt just come straight to me Back again on Friday so will hopefully get some video of the calves.

Another agility one

I was working Cash on ducks one day, attempting to get them into a free standing pen. After 5 minutes of no success (mainly due to a certain kelpie's selective deafness when it comes to the command "down"), I gave up trying to achieve this with the dog - put him on a down stay and put the ducks into the pen myself! All within about 15 seconds Sometimes having the dog "helping" makes it harder...

Well from a previous post of yours JulesP, apparently you do a lovely job of flanking Brock must recognise this inate ability of yours

Oh dear. My old horse was great for that - Cash used to have a go at getting her to move when he was a pup but she just looked at him with disdain and he gave up