bloss344

I used food rewards to train Bob and have it admit it's a great quick way to train a food motivated dog. However, Bob then trained me to give him treats if I wanted him to do something. If he didn't get a treat twice in a row he'd refuse to do anything unless I showed him the food, therefore it becoming a bribe, it became impossible to just phase out the food, if I wanted to keep teaching him new things. Also at obedience training he'd be much more focused on my pocket or hand than on me and also would break stays/waits if he felt it was time for a treat and he knew I had one.Now we are retraining Bob to realise that just because I have treats it doesn't mean that he gets one for each thing he does for me. Slowly he's getting the idea, but it's harder than originally training with treats. Sometimes he just sits there and looks at me as if to say 'show me the money' For the past three weeks we've gone to Obedience without any treats at all and have found he's more responsive to me than he was in the past, he even learned how to weave in and out cones yesterday with my voice and hand encouragement, which was a first. Rather than the treats being a motivation they became an obsession for Bob. I was talking to the chief instructor at Obedience Club yesterday and she said they are going to incorporate how to give treats correctly and how to phase them out into the classes which I think is great. Too late for us though. On the whole though I think food rewards are great, especially when they can be phased out over time, bribes well, they can become a problem.

I hear you Norskgra. My Bob has IBD and eats a very simple bland diet of rabbit, rice and sweet potato and supplements as required. I can't ever give him a commercial treat or different food. My old Tess has liver problems and eats a special liver diet consisiting of fish, rice, zucchini, sweet potato and green beans and supplements. I've always had dogs with 'cast iron guts' before this and seem to spend so much time in the kitchen preparing their food. It's worth it in the long run though when they stay healthy.

That's great Norskgra, I know you were concerned about how she'd go on it. Lots of dogs don't tolerate kangaroo well, according to my vet and a few other people. Seems to suit most cats tho..

I'm so glad you took her to the vet and have a definite diagnosis even though it's not the one you really wanted. You can prevent her doing more damage now you are aware of it.

Rabbit perhaps, it's quite lean. Does she have any red meat, for iron and zinc and other nutrient goodies?

If she does okay on fatty lamb, it might be worthwhile giving a small amount of duck a try and see how she goes. Wish my pet warehouse had stuff like turkey and duck. My boy has food intolerances and finding novel proteins that are not expensive is difficult.

Well, today we went to Obedience training with no treats. Not a one. I didn't even take me treat bag just put poop bags in my pocket. As it was such a dreadful morning weatherwise very few people turned up so we combined with another class but our usual two instructors took it as the other instructor had car trouble. I spoke to one of the instructors and explained that I was not going to use treats so if Bob didn't do anything that was why, but that was ok with me and we'd just come back next week and try, try again. We started off fine and within a few minutes it was obvious that I had a much better behaved compliant dog. The only problem we had was with 'down' which has been an ongoing problem with him being very uncomfortable with dropping around other dogs, so I just moved and got him to sit instead. Even the instructor commented that we were doing really well considering this was the first week I had tried without treats, the dreadful weather and the different dogs in the class. He also only got spooked once; by would you believe it a big autumn leaf! that was quite traumatic. Killer leaf.... I am going to reteach drop now and probably use a new word so that perhaps that will help. I know I have to work on the duration of drop rather than the actual going down so that's probably where I'll use the 'jackpot' system. Actually, Bob has been great today, it's almost like he's had an attitude transplant. Thank you everyone for all your advice, I've taken it all on board and will work through it to see what works best with this boy.

I'm with Dan on this one. Cod Liver Oil and Omega 3 Fish Oil are two different things. Most non commercial dog diets can do with the addition of Omega 3 unless the dog is eating a diet based on fish, not just a small amount of fish each week or month. A dog eating a fish based diet would require Omega 6. Cod liver oil is used to supply vit a and vit d to the diet, again not necessary if the dog is eating a commercial diet. Liver also supplies a high amount of vitamin a so toxicity could occur in some cases. Most people feed enough variety not to need to supply extra vitamin a in the diet and sunshine supplies the necessary vitamin d.

For a dog the recommended amount of Vit A is 75 IU per kg bodyweight ie a 10kg dog would require 750 IU per day. The capsules do vary in how much Vit A and Vit D they contain. Both of these vitamins can be toxic if given in excess as they are stored in the liver. So if you are going to use it you need to see how much is in each capsule. Most commercial foods would be more than amply supplied with Vit A and Vit D so caution should be exercised if supplementing a commercial diet.

Thanks PAX, LilBailey and Tim_m99 for your replies. Looks like I have a bit of reading to do. Is Susan Garretts food rule outs in a book or website? I found Shirley Chong's website so will download and read her suggestions. I did Clicker train Bob when he was a pup, but I found it, well akward for me, click and give food and try to retrieve a ball or whatever all at once just was way above me. And I seemed to be constantly giving treats. I should probably give it another go. On a positive note I should mention that I can put Bob in a drop put a treat on his paw or a bikkie on the floor and he won't touch it until I give him the ok you can have it command. I can leave the room and even if my OH tells him to have it he won't touch it. Of course the longer I wait the bigger wet drool patch on the carpet. I can do the same with his food bowl and he knows that he needs to make good eye contact with me before I will say ok.

Petmezz, I'm not sure how to split up quotes so have done my answers in bold. have you talked to your instructor, if so what have they advised?? how have you tried to phase out the treets?? how are you giving the treets to the dog ie what hand are the treets in, are you constantly dipping into the treet pouch, size of the treets. what do you do when the dog dose his "tricks" to get the food?? have you used any punishment on your dog like "UAUA" or with holding treets, any other forms of mild punishment? I've tried not rewarding him after each time. Say I ask him to spin, I try several spins before giving him the treat. After about 3 spins he'll just sit down and do something else like offer me his paw trying to figure out what I want. At Obedience I tend to dip into the treat pouch often to keep him motivated. Treats are usually in my right hand. If he gives me behaviour I didn't ask for I don't reward this, and ask for the behaviour I want again. Sometimes I say 'no' and try to calm him down and start again. can you go into more depth on what happens hear. from the look of it your dog knows to get the food he has to disobay your comand, play around and when back into position he will get the food. is my assumption correct hear? Yes, he knows that I will lure him into doing what I want. One instructor I spoke to got me to ask for a drop. Bob just sat there looking at me. As soon as I got the treat out and asked for 'drop' he dropped. The instructor said that he felt Bob had an attitude of 'why should I do it now, I'll do it when she has a treat'. when are you giving the treets?? is it every time he dose the wright thing, occasionally when he dose the wright thing? will he only do the wright thing if he sees the food first? I don't give a treat everytime he does the right thing but as I said before sometimes he'll do something two or three times and then just give up and offer other behaviour. His focus is the food not what I want him to do. sorry about all the questions but they will help me and others on trying to help you. No problem. I appreciate any help I can get. It's hard to explain it in writing I feel like I'd have to write a book to explain it. Thank you so much

Bob is totally food obsessed. I use food as his motivation for training and at Obedience but now it's become a problem. His whole focus is on the piece of food I have in my hand. I've been working on 'just because I have food doesn't mean you are going to get it' and it's not working. If I try to teach Bob something new, his ability to learn is diminshed because he's so focused on the treat and he goes through his repoitre of tricks to gain the treat. I know this means he's thinking but he gets frustrated and I get frustrated. :D As far as food goes it doesn't matter if it's a bit of meat or a piece of frozen green bean or a pea. There is no high or low value treats as far as he is concerned. At Obedience I find that food again is his whole focus and he will break to get the food and go through his repoitre. I am seriously considering going to obedience this weekend without any food at all. Has anyone done this with a food obsessed dog and how difficult was it? We aren't doing serious Obedience at the moment but a Social class which is relaxed and easy going. He's a stressy dog so he's not relaxed and easy going in class and food is sort of keeping him going but I really need to do something. BTW: I have been trying to phase out treats for over a year and as soon as he realises I'm not giving treats he just refuses to move. Reading over this it sounds like I'm not in a leadership role, but on the whole I am; it's just the food obsession thing I need to overcome. I can't motivate him with a toy either, although I am trying to get him interested in a tug toy at the moment. He's not overly fussed, just cracks the shits because I won't let him take it and chew it to bits.

I agree with Glorybea. Ask for a refund and tell them why you are doing so. They are in the business of helping people with difficult dogs. Lets be honest most of us originally go to Obedience because we have some difficulties with our dog, [then we get hooked :rolleyes: ]. If they were perfect and we were perfect most people probably wouldn't bother. What are we supposed to do if they don't conform, just not bother? If I had heard those comments from my trainer, it wouldn't have been Bob that was considered aggressive. I started Bob at a different club than the one we are at now. After several months of training I was told that he would not progress and he would never be trusted 'off lead'. Guess what? within a month or so of changing clubs we were doing some off lead. Now he's doing a lot of off lead work at obedience.

Oh Ruffles, I can totally understand your frustration. I don't have any suggestions for you as Bob was a total pain in the butt on Sunday as well and we spent most of the lesson on the sideline as well so I totally empathise. Bob wasn't aggressive but some of the other dog's were and that put him off. Hopefully some other members will have some good ideas for you. If the trainer was so negative have you considered a different obedience club where they are more positive. Most of us go for the socialisation side anyway.

The way I look at it is that 'wild' dogs followed man and scavenged food. They became adept at eating whatever man left over or was prepared to throw at them. Hence the beginning of the domesticated dog. Before the advent of commercial dog food dog's were often fed only the left overs from the family meal and perhaps a bone or two. Ask your grandma what the family dog's were fed. They survived and often lived long and illness free lives. They are extremely adaptable in regards to food. Dog's can't boil water or bake, but neither do we expect them to hunt and kill their own food like the original wild dog did, unless you are going to throw a sheep or rabbit into your backyard and let them go for it. I don't feed a commercial diet but would rather see a dog fed a good quality commercial food than fed a poorly balanced 'natural diet' by someone who is not prepared to do the research and put the effort in.

I order Bob's meat without preservative. It was actually one of the pet shop staff that suggested it as he was showing signs of allergy at about 4 months old, and I was at my wits end at trying to find a food for him. Now when I order it I always mention that he's extremely allergic just in case they don't bother to order me the 'free' stuff. One staff member told me it really wasn't a problem as it was the same stuff that's on our food that we don't know about... that' makes it okay I guess Yeah Right. Hopefully, now that TNT has had this segment, people will become more aware of what is in their pet food and either stop buying it or at least ask questions. I guess we'll never really know what's in pet food, but it's a start.

Poor baby. I hope Zahra is on the mend. Usually the Vet's treatment works pretty quickly, and pups are amazingly resilient.

Are they very active dogs? Kangaroo meat is very low in fat, and therefore low in calories as are fruit and veggies. Tinned food has a high percentage of water so again you need to feed a massive amount to put on weight, actually tinned food is great for them to loose weight. Sometimes feeding more frequent meals helps. A meat with a higher percentage of fat like beef or lamb should help, some pet shops sell a puppy mince that is beef with extra fat in it. You could also add some oil to their food for extra calories. If you want to feed a commercial food, a good quality one shouldn't increase the amount of poop, but they are all different. Any changes you make to their diet should be slow, especially if you are adding extra fat which might upset their tummies a bit initially. You might like to try some well cooked rice or even pasta for a while to see if that puts on a bit of weight. It's great that the vet said all is fine with them. I'm sure you'll get lots of helpful advice here.

Hi Anne, Congratulations on the new puppy. They can be a worry can't they? Perhaps the wormer upset her tummy and this is making her not want to eat, along with a new home and all. I would watch the watery poop though and keep in touch with the vet if you are worried at all, sounds like this girl doesn't have a lot of reserve. Milk can be a bit of a problem, even skim milk as many dogs and cats are intolerant of the lactose, causing loose stools. There is a puppy milk, but I would encourge her to eat food rather than fill up on milk. Rather than keep trying different foods to see if she will eat it would probably be best if you stuck with what her breeder had been feeding her and then slowly changed over to your preferred diet later on when she is settled and doing well. I know it's difficult when one so young won't eat or will only eat one meal out of 3 or 4, and it's really hard when people tell you the pup will eat when it's hungry. I went through this with Bob right from day 1. I tried different foods starting from the not so expensive to the very expensive, I tried cooking for him, hand feeding him, puppy milk and nothing was going to entice him to eat what I thought he should. Finally we found that he had food intolerances and he is kept on a very simple diet with only a few ingredients; hasn't missed a meal for over two years. Sometimes too, we expect them to eat a lot more than they need. Dogs also learn pretty quickly how to manipulate us into obsessing about their food, and making us offer lots of different things to try to get them to eat. Not good. Of course I want to add again, see your vet if you're at all concerned. Good luck with your new baby.

Hi Rozzie, I've just reread the whole thread but was wondering does the dog have obvious skin problems or is it itchy and smelly? Just jotting down a few thoughts............. Is the pup being fed kangaroo as an elimination diet? I fed Bob on kangaroo for about 10 months because of his IBD because it's so low fat, and I found that he absolutely stunk and his skin and coat wasn't all that great, although his IBD was under control. He is also an allergy dog but since changing him from the kangaroo to rabbit the smell has pretty well gone, and his coat is slowly becoming a little better. The other thing I noticed with Bob was Malaseb actually made him itch more perhaps because it's more drying but Aloveen was more soothing. Depending on what this dog is eating a zinc deficiency can cause skin problems, but adding zinc without knowing the actual requirements could be a problem because excess zinc can cause an iron and/or copper deficiency. A lot of people keep adding oils but what the dog actually needs is zinc. Another possibility would be one of the prescription skin and coat diets to ensure the dog is getting all the nutrients it needs, and importantly the specific nutrients for skin and coat. Don't know if any of this is helpful, but I'm sure this doggie very much appreciates the effort you are putting in to find a solution. Barb

Hi Sandra, Wow that's cheap!! My OH is an electritian and I shoved your pics under his nose last night. He was 'gunna' make me some jumps last year and it never happened. We worked out that using electrical conduit and the joiners it would cost us about $70 a jump. Where did you get your conduit and joiners? He's not going to get out of it this time. Edited to add: It's okay, I just figured out that it's PVC tubing and fittings. Much cheaper than electrical conduit and fittings. Now he's definitly not getting out of helping me make some this weekend. Jumps and weave poles here we come!!!!

I use homemade baked meat treats as a rule, but Bob is just as enthusiastic about bits of frozen green beans or frozen peas. He is totally food obsessed. I thought that the meat would be high value and the beans low value but nope they are all equal.

I have used Malawash on dogs and guinea pigs, but many years ago. I thought it worked really well, it was in the pre Frontline and Advantage days though. Doesn't smell too bad once it's dry. I think you can mix it up and spray kennels, runs and the ground too with it. Good luck with your frustrating problem.

I am so sorry for your loss. It's so much worse and devastating when it is so sudden and unexpected.

JMHO but I feel that Thrive D might help by allowing your dog to absorb all the nutrients in his food. I use digestive enzymes on my old dog's food and it makes a difference to her in regards to keeping weight on her and just generally how she absorbs her food. If all his nutrient needs are met then perhaps the poo eating might stop.