wyvernblade

I was fortunate enough to meet Julie and Andrew and Gus and River at K9's last Vic seminar, and it was so inspiring I nearly cried watching them! So enjoy guys, and hopefully it will inspire a few more to join up and train! Off Topic, LL What's with Stamp??? Is it a new dog to the pack? Can't imagine him being aggressive!! Do they all run toghether? And has he had issues with other males in the past? How old is the dog he's having troubles with? Sorry it upset you, I know how hard it was for me having a dog with aggression issues! Next time we meet, I'll put a pot of bourbon on for you!

So good nerves basicallly translates into low reactivity to new sounds, sights, smells etc? So if a saucepan is dropped next to dog,it jumps and turns around but doesn't run squealing out of room? So what would you then look for in a working dog, i.e my pup would have 'good' nerves by that definition, he doesn't over react to loud noises, anything that startles him he will instantly turn to investigate, but he has very low prey drive, so will obviously not make a good working dog for schutzhund! What WOULD he be good for? He seems to enjoy tracking and would prefer to be wandering along with his nose to the ground rather than chasing something? That's why I started this thread, what do trainers look for, in their individual sports?! My other Dobe has amazing prey drive AND nerves,I was training with him yesterday while my sister was on the ride on lawnmower, hubby and brother in law were pulling down trees with the ute and winch and using the chainsaw, and this dog could NOT care less! He was totally focussed even when the lawnmower was actually hitting us with bits of gravel etc, he didn't even blink, let alone look. So have high hopes for him in schutzhund as I know he will concentrate 100% on his toy no matter what is going on around him. He runs straight for a loud noise to investigate, and when coming across new things (Bath lying on side in my paddock for horses, hole in the side of a shed-he jumped up and stuck nose through hole while standing on back legs!) he runs straight up and sniffs it, no fear or hesitation. Wheras other pup took ages to encourage to walk past a pile of cardboard boxes etc etc. Hmmm, put it this way, would not throw anything into a fire whilst older dobe is out, as he would chase it no matter what, could throw pups' favourite ball into a fire he would not chase it! So then that's a whole new argument, 'nerves' versus intelligence, or survival instinct?! LOL Let's not get too complicated!

generally you look at the recovery time of how long it takes once the dog has been exposed to a stressfull environment to fully recover, depends on a few things from the environment your working the dog in and what your doing at the time, a dog can be working in prey drive and not be distracted by its environmental surroundings and work through stress, this is mainly a problem of breeders of dogs with intense prey drive, (malinois and dutch shepherds). so basically you cant work in prey drive and evaluate a dogs nerves, dont know how i went at throwing a few ideas around i probably created more confusion Ok, but WHAT does recovery mean?! It sounds like you have just operated on your dog?! And what WOULD you classify as stress to the dog? And how can you tell the dog IS stressed? See what I mean? It sounds simple, but when you actually start to think about it there are heaps of things that have to be dissected, and I think I have a GENERAL understanding, but couldn't pick apart exactly what the terms mean.! I.e my puppy has NO nerves and very little prey drive, i.e he gets very bored very quickly chasing things, and if he IS chasing something he will drop it the instant he hears a noise, or something else happens around him. BUT he is not fussed by loud noises, or bangs, crashes etc, but I still would not say he has good nerves. Does that make sense?!

We also have a 10 week old BC pup here so I know what they are like! It's funny because he belongs to my step daughter and is only here when she is here, but he also gets overpowered by my 17 week old Dobe puppy, so they are not allowed to play together. And having owned a Yorkie in the past I can tell you they do not appreciate being 'boinged' by big puppies! Nor should they have to be either in their own home! So the crate is a brilliant way around it

I think I kind of know what good nerves in a dog are, but was thinking about it the other day and thinking, I wonder how other's classify nerves and what they look for in a dog for their chosen field/sport? I'm not an expert, but is it essentially the dog being able to focus under distraction? I know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves? Drive I think is an easier thing to dissect? And how do you ascertain the difference between very strong drive and good nerve, i.e where is the line that you draw and you say "oh that's great drive , oh and THERE he's showing good nerve?" Has that made ANY sense, or have I just completely confused everyone?!

Thanks for the info guys! Have been doing some more research on it and asking a few Dobe breeders as well. I am assuming it is anxiety based in this particular dog's case, but he us very easy to sidtract out of it which is good. Interesting point about the drive building maybe making it worse? haven't noticed that yet, and would have thought that if he was fufilling his natural drive tendencies this would lessen anxiety? He is extremely destructive too, he's averaging a bed a day at the moment So have a feeling he may not have had alot of things around him to suck on in his previous place, as I would imagine most owners becoming quite frustrated with a dog that eats everything in it's path! He has not flank sucked when I have had him out and about tho, i.e training, so would think if it was purely anxiety, then the stress of being out and around other dogs etc would bring it on? I don't know, it's very interesting, unfortunate for him, but interesting!

A boisterous puppy can be a bit overpowering to a toy dog. Is Lilly crated at home at all? If she is, then maybe bring a chew treat with you and her crate and pop that somewhere so that the other dog can still see her and say hello, without fear of being 'boinged' on! If she's used to being crated at home then she's not going to think she's being punished by being crated at someone elses house.

LOL!! ;) So should I be scared??? Hmm I'm quite pleased, my very own 'stalker!' I shall be telling all my friends to make them jealous! Back on topic again Teased the boy twice today and am making sure I vary how many 'captures' he gets as I was stupidly doing 4 each time and then couldn't figure out why he wasn't dropping it after the 4th one! ;) So only let him get one this morning and then 3 this afternoon, and he is slowly (And I emphasise SLOWLY) dropping the tug quicker. From what I can gather by watching him, he is one of those dogs that would chase a ball all day and I think his previous owners tired of that, so he tried to turn it into a game of 'chasey' instead, as he doesn't drop anything that he grabs, even if it's the end of his lead which is already attached to his collar! Crazy dog!

I haven't heard of either of those people, but do know of someone who is using Clomicalm on an anxious GSD at the moment. It isn't a behavioural issue with her though, she either has hypothyroidism, or a hormonal problem. The owner is waiting on results back from a full blood test. She has said the clomicalm has helped almost straight away. (Dog well socilaised, fully shown and trained, handled by children, adults etc etc, passed gun tests, suddenly becomes nervy, scared of loud noises and strangers, pertrified of children etc etc) All happened after her first season, coat started dropping and she was discharging a clear fluid constantly. Maybe if you gave us a few more details of when and where your dog is anxious? If it is a problem it has always had? How old is the dog? How does the anxiety present itslef? I am not an expert but have been doing quite a bit of research with this GSD breeder because of this particular dog!

Well I am at this stage with the new doberman. He doesn't like dropping his 'prey' item after he has captured it. I have been bugging Steve (He's changed his phone number and moved address since he met me ) and what I am doing with my boy is helicoptering on the prong (minimal pressure, I am not flying him around in a circle or anything) and I am repeating the 'Out' command until the item is dropped. Then retying him back up and starting game again. It has been VERY frustrating as this dog takes forever to drop it, (I.e yesterday he captured item 3 times and the training session took an hour and a half!) However Steve has made it very clear that to do it any other way ESPECIALLY by using forms of force (I was told at training to choke the dog until he dropped it) you create a mouthy dog when biting, as the Out command to the dog means "Spit it out or else you are going to cop it" not "Drop it because that begins the game again and that's much more fun!" With me aiming for schutzhund, I do NOT want a mouthy dog, and I'm looking on the bright side, and pleased that at least I won't have to teach him to hold anything!

Yes I agree, your friend sounds like she's needs the help just as much, once she is sorted she will be thinking in a much clearer way, reasoning responsibly, and will then be able to cope with doing something about the dog. It sounds like she is suffering from depression, has isolated herself, and see's her dog as her only friend, so she can't bring herself to see the actions of her 'friend' as being harmful.And every time someone suggests doing something about the dog, she is taking it as a personal attack on her choice of 'friends'! I would maybe show some concern for her as a friend, very hard I know, I have had a very good friend commit suicide and nothing I said or did got through, so it can be impossible, but would start with her first and then hopefully the dog will benefit! Good luck and let us know how you go!

We used to have a Shepherd, a Bullmastiff, a Yorkshire Terrier and a Pom/Maltese cross all at the same time. It was a toss up between the two littlies who learnt the fastest! The Yorkie was incredibly bright and the pom cross I taught tricks to using drive no problems at all. As Haven said, the only limitations are those of the handler, and the small mindedness of those around you!

My favourite trick that I've taught my Dobe pup is to 'dig' on command. I say "Get the bunnies!!" and then he starts digging!

Hmmm , well I have been watching this boy very closely and can't see any triggers for the flank sucking, i.e I could be playing with him (not drive building, just chatting and patting! ) and he'll suddenly fling himslef to ground and start to suck. Or was in lounge last night and he jumped up on chair and started to suck. Nothing seems to be a trigger so bit hard to figure out where it is coming from. If I don't take him off tie up after drive building quick enough he'll drop and start to suck, there just doesn't seem to be a common factor that I can figure yet. On the plus side, the drive is AWESOME!!! I'll be very surprised if he doesn't come from working lines as he is almost scary! I still haven't seen him actually RELAX!!! He will stop and suck on the couch but if anyone moves, he's off again and he hasn't yet gone to sleep in my presence. Apart from that habit, he is a truly lovely dog, loves our kids, is very friendly, hasn't annoyed the cat and even comes when you call him! Am very very happy with our rescue!

Great to hear J!! I bought a prong collar on weekend and the effect was immediate! There was no upset from the dog, just respect, and I haven't used it like a check chain, he just reaches the end of his lead and then stops pulling (I don't mind a dog not heeling 100% of the time, hell! I want them to enjoy a walk too!) it has actually made walking him heaps better not to mention I am much more comfortable having him in public knowing I can control him a bit better! If he lunges at another dog, he corrects himself, so I don't have to do anything! Honestly had to go to chiropracter today because of jolts in my back from him over the weekend (i have had several falls off horses and motorbikes and my back doesn't stand up to well to any sudden jolts now!) so I am VERY happy with new collar!!!

EVERYTHING!!! I just love my dogs!!!

Haven't got his papers yet, should arrive tomorrow, will let you know then. But already I am blown away by this dog! Will have to bring him to K9 Force's next Vic meet to see what he thinks of him! He's unreal!

Ok have noticed something else about this boy, his teeth chatter as he pulling me around! Anyone remember LabLovers boy Yank doing the same thing at K-9 Force's last Victorian seminar? Do we know if she figured out what that was, and what cured it? I think this boy just has loads of drive!! I have tied him up once today and played with the tug (The trainer today gave it to me as we literally couldn't get it off him! LOL ;) ) and he was flipping himself on the lead trying to grab it!! It didn't make the slightest difference to him at all, he'd just leap up and be straight back at it again!

Yes great points Erny, I wasn't planning on trying to stop him anyway, he's not going to be shown, so it doesn't really matter, but yes I can understand if it IS anxiety related then trying to stop it would be a bad idea. I have also noticed today that he has a few teeth missing? Have no idea what would cause that, but would imagine a dog would have to have a pretty severe blow of some kind to knock teeth out? Thanks for those tips, I will keep an eye on him and see if there's any indicators before he starts doing it. Pax, I'm not on that list! Could you please PM me the details, I'd love to join! On another note entirely, took him to my dog club today to get the trainer to assess him, and WOW!! To say this dog has drive would be an understatement! We did a gun test with him- no problems, don't think he even noticed it! :rolleyes: , he met a whole heap of strangers, and wanted to jump on them and lick them all!, we got him interested in the tug toy with me holding him on the lead and I was literally being dragged across the grass as he tried to get to tug. When he did grab it he was not letting go under any circumstances, we actually lifted him off his feet for a split second, and there was no way he was letting go!! When playing with it, we tried to distract him (And think about it, I only got him yesterday so he has no idea who I am, he was chasing a tug being held my a man he'd never met in his life, and there were people, kids and dogs everywhere!) and he was 200 % foccused! I am SO looking forward to building up drive with him, he is going to be AWESOME!! ;)

Ok, so I assume it's like wind sucking in horses (Where a horse will suck on a pole of the edge of a stable door etc and suck in wind) it's a habit that they enjoy and it's self rewarding so unlikely to be trained out of. That's ok, just hadn't encoutered it before! Thanks

Ok I have just aquired a very friendly EXTREMELY energetic, very bouncy 12 month old male Doberman. As far as I can tell he has come from a family environment living in suburbia, possibly not excercised as much as he should have been (Conjecture, I took him on as owners moving and couldn't take him with them. so I really don't know) He pulls like a steam train on the lead, even with a check chain on, and I am 5'11" and weigh over 70 kgs so I'm not a small person and he just about drags me off my feet! He has pale patches of fur on both sides of him near his hindquarters and I have noticed him sucking on his sides which is probably what has made the hair go lighter? I contacted his previous owner and she told me he has done that since he was a puppy and the vet said he'd grow out of it. I am thinking that it may be a reaction to not having drive fufilled? Is this possible? I am taking him to my vets on Monday to rule out any skin condition etc, but when he is kept occupied he doesn't stop to suck! What do behaviouralists think? Could it be a neurological problem as well? He's a very nice dog, he's not dog aggressive, very friendly, and like I said very very active! So was wondering if drives are not fufilled if this kind of behavioural thing would be common?

Let us know how you go, as I have just picked up a new dog that PULLS (yes in capitals!!!) on the lead!! Now I am 5'11" and weigh just over 70 kgs, and this Dobermann (40kgs) was still just about towing me along as I walked him, i'e I am running, or I fall!!! So thinking about a prong collar already as I already KNOW that a check chain will make no difference! Have used Halti's in the past and think that they work for specific problems but are not a cure and worry too much about the whip lash effect with them. But does not make walking pleasant and it SHOULD be!!!

Ebay! I bought both of mine from ebay and they are brilliant and delivered straight to your door! Also alot cheaper than buying from pet shops!

Ohhh I SOOOO better be on the list of people attending this seminar!!!! :rolleyes:

I have always thought that to treat a dog like a 'dog' one must understand where they came from and their original pack structure. And in a pack of wild dogs, the Alpha will still use 'punishment' to correct a subordinate, which is why check chains or prong collars to my mind are a much better correction than a smack or a slap as it is more like a 'bite' to the neck, yes? Again, it's the whole not thinking of the dogs as humans, OR associating methods we use to train them with how we would treat other humans. (Altho I've met a few people that a swift sharp prong collar correction wouldn't go astray on! ) I think it is finding the balance between the two that will create a happy partnership where you both benefit!