country joe

Pups are out in field early but I am careful not to call them while they are interested in something. I will go pick them up. Teach pup recall. (read that as come play or food depending on pup) no distraction. Pup learns come is always fun When I notice a bit of independence coming in about 4.5 to 5 months I teach down side of not coming. (small distraction set up in yard usually a piece of rag on a string or something smelly, dog not given any time, call is given as correction is coming, a second before max.) Correction is a grab hold of the loose skin on the back of neck, no shaking just a gruff voice "did you hear me" I repeat this a couple of time over the next 2 or 3 days. Then I let pup beat correction. Not interested in any finish just being with me is good not listening is bad. This is how I introduce a formall recall. This seems to work for me. Country Joe.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/vi...pic.php?t=38873 want some more. Here is one about a dog that won't open its mouth for FF. Smartwork is a book. Smartwork for Retrievers by Even Graham for those who wonder what the hell it is. A google search will find it. country joe.

Having a decent pup is only the start of a long road. If the training isn't there you end up with a mess anyway. We all and I include myself here, should remember that arguing about FF is just a natural thing. Below is a link to an American Retriever Training site. The people in this thread are all FF users and they are arguing about teaching the hold command before FF. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/vi...pic.php?t=38908 Country Joe

Now if I told you that you would know who I was wouldn't you. Well ok. To my understanding there are two internationally accredited search and rescue dogs in Oz. I bred one. As for the retrieving dogs I have bred a National winner. but don't consider myself a dog breeder. I can at least and in the dim dark past have trained a dog or two in retrieving trials and field trials. What do they say been there got the T shirts. They are very old and ratty. Hell, I have even been in an OB competition, I think 3 to be exact. but don't consider myself a dog trainer. I am of course willing to discuss dog training. They didn't kick me out of the 3 OB trials so that has to stand for something. Now you kow who I am, I have a question for you. Where is my birthday card??????? country joe.

Thats ok. I was just trying to get a handle on the level of retriever trainer you have been dealing with. Your answer tells me a lot. Do you believe your method means the electric collar or running shoes are no longer needed or just less often.? country joe.

K9 I don't have any issues with what your advocating. As a matter of fact it makes a lot of sense. I am interested in how it is applied in the field. Have you worked with many retriever trainers? If you have, what level of success did they have before using your methods and what level of success have they had using your methods? Country Joe. who doesn't advocate FF.

Erny. In general terms not doing the job correctly can have fatal consequences for a gundog. In Victoria there are 4 different gundog trial games for people and their dogs to play to play. 3 of these involve shooting live ammunition. I don't need to paint a picture for you of a dog running in at the wrong time. As for retrieving trials in particular. If someone has never won an All-Age retrieving Trial they really have no idea what it takes. I don’t care what they have accomplished in other areas You are not training to a standard. You are training to beat everyone else who has already got to the standard and they are working hard to make sure you never win one. You need to be better than everyone else on that day. THat includes all retrieving trial champions competing on the day. I have had this discussion with people who have actually won All-Age retrieving trials and this was the agreed outcome. When you actually stand up there with a blue ribbon in your hand it is a whole new world and to do that a second time to gain a championship is a whole step further. If you haven’t achieved it you are only guessing at what it takes. If you haven’t accomplished it you are only guessing that it takes less effort then something else. Spending time with people who have not been successful (won an All-Age is my minimum indicator of retrieving success) is not a good indicator of what is required. I’ve heard this argument on community safety used before like it’s supposed to mean something. Like someone is taking the moral high ground. Give me a break. I’ve bred a search and rescue dog. Whilst I am very happy that the people that got the pup could take the genetic potential the pup had and moulded it into a fine working dog that also can benefit the community. I am no more proud of that as a breeder than I am of the retrieving dogs I have bred. Country Joe

This is something I have used in the past with a dog that would drop the dummy (Bird)on sitting. I looked closely at the return as there was a point where the dog broke down. By this I mean a point where you could see the dog break stride and drop its head. It was only a small cmovement but that is what I looked for. I concentrated on finding that distance where to me tha dog had started to position itself to sit or drop the dummy or whatever you want to call it. Just before that happened I would turn call heel and walk away. I would let the dog walk at heel holding the dummy. Then I took the dummy on the move. You have to try and do this without slowing down. More speed in the heel means the dog has to concentrate on you. Next I went to slowing down and then speeding up the heel a few times before I took it still on the move. The next stage was stopping and then healing off with the dog still holding the dummy. From there it was stop, move in front of the dog as when starting out teaching sit stay as in stand in front of the dog and then return to heal position and heel off. then repeat and take dummy. Then next stage was stand in front and move back one pace call dog to move up and then return to heel position and heel off. repeat and take dummy. I don't care and it's probably a good idea to do these exercises 3,4, or 5 times and only take the dummy once as you are trying to create a new habbit. One trick is to have the dog working up hill. I don't know why but they are less inclined to drop the dummy when moving up hill. And don't forget speed is also part of the answer as if the dog is consentrating on you it has less time to drop its head. Use whatever sort of praise you use. I don't have any great problems with good dog, food or whatever form of praise works for you and your dog. I used the hold command when I thought appropriate during the exercises. I would think you need to get a feel for that. It's not the only way to get the job done but it has worked for me in the past. It may take a month but who cares. I think it took me longer. Just remember its the end result your worried about not how quick you can get there. You can also teach the hold as a seperate exercise as some do before FF. Spencer has a good example of this in his book That I can't remember the name of at the moment. Spencer advocated teaching hold and then FF in the book I read of his. Starting out teaching the hold as a seperate exercise from the retrieve is a good idesa for pups. Get out there get it back and lets play. Then combine the two parts of the exercise later on. This can stop those slow returns that were mentioned earlier if pressure on the return has been an issue. Country Joe

There is a vast difference betweeen teaching non retrieving breeds to retrieve using a conditioned retrieve or FF and teaching a retriever FF. There is also a huge amount of variation in FF itself. Some teach hold and then intriduce the FF aspects of the conditioned retrieve, some just force from the start (I heard this discribed as hell week) Some use it just to firm up the hold. Some teach for go as sent and go when sent. Some use it as the first step in force to pile, force to water, some use it as a step in teaching the dog to turn off pressure as they believe it helps when using electric collars for correction in the field. There are dogs thrown on the pile while they look for a winner but that happens with everything where the outcome is a winner and a loser. I have trained retrievers both ways and to tell the truth the mistakes I made didn't have anything to do with FF or no FF they related to basic dog knowledge and lack of application of fundimental training principles. I have seen plenty of retrievers coming back slow after getting the bird. This in my opinion has not been a FF issue, its been a general pressure issue by applying negative aspects to the return and in my experience its also about demanding to much OB early on with holding and delivery on the return. As for retrieving trials my opinion is if you can't train a dog to a high standard without FF. (Competitive standard not just dreaming about it and I mean something higher than novice) then you shouldn't do it as you will probably make a bigger mess of the dog than you would have without it. While I on my high horse I don't think you should use an electric collar if you can't train to a high standard without one for the same reason as above. Its usually a bigger mess to clean up. Now my personal preference is for not doing FF. That's not to say I won't play with FF again as I may use it to try and fix issues I have already created or the dog was predisposed to and I didn't pick up on early enough but its not my preference. I am still not convinced that if you FF every dog you breed from that you don't end up with dogs you have to FF. I like the idea of positive training. The idea of breeding retrievers that somebody can buy, get a book and finish with a reasonable hunting companion or train for Obiedience or with more knowledge to do search and rescue. My goal has been to breed dogs like that and I'm happy with what I've bred without FF I am also happy with what my dog have achieved without FF Country Joe

Let the council deal with it. That's what they are there for. When your friendly neighbour complains to you tell them to exercise the dog and then they can deal with the barking. The answer to the barking is easy but it is part of a total change for the poor dog. Counrty Joe.

1 Attaching the chook to the dog is a vey old method. I have never tried it, never seen it, wouldn't try it. You at least had a go at trying to do something. Don't go beating yourself up over it. All the people who jump up and down decrying your efforts have things they regret in their dog training past (myself included). They just haven't put it on a forum. Perhaps that should be a post "Worst mistake I have ever made training a dog" 2 You shouldn't need to spend hundreds of dollars on professional help for this type of problem. If you have plenty of money or want to train dogs at the pointy end of the dog world or perhaps you have a dog with temperament issues go ahead but if you just want to save your $10 chicken a solid barrier of corrigated iron works well. Partly bury it if the dog is a digger. (In your case he has already killed a chicken so this is a good idea anyway) 3 Join a local Obedience club if there is one around. Buy a dog training book. Teach the dog basic obedience including a recall and a sit to flush. The recall and other basic obedience you will learn at the club or from the book. If you need help with the sit to flush you can purchase a Spaniel training book or I can help you via email or phone. It will all help to make your dog controllable when you are around. You will end up with a dog that is manageable when you are there but keep him separate from the chooks when you're not. This is a combination of management and training. Country Joe

I have seen silly trialers trying to handling their dogs well after the dog has lost focus and became very confused. Hell I have been guilty of that myself. It is so true that having a dog under control is a sight to behold. That combined with a great finding dog is heaven. I have seen some great hunting dogs in action and it still amazes me what they can do. But this post is about prey drive and that is what I am interested in expanding my knowledge in. Country Joe

What was he doing when he became confused and lost focus? Did this ever happen at a distance? If it did, were you able to switch the dog back into prey drive at a distance or did you have to go out to him or call him back in? If hunting is all about getting the game and to hell with what the dog is doing then its no good for the dog. But that is a personal thing given the amount of time people have to go hunting and their level of dog training savy. But I saw this at a couple of dog games too. People getting so worried about a stupid bit of ribbon or a few letters on their dogs name they don't do what is in the best interest of the dog. I don't class my hunting as anti-training I think its an extention of it. Country Joe

My interest is hunting with my dogs. I have played around the edges of a few dog games and like most people who live in the country I think I have bred a couple of handy dogs (not that I would call myself a breeder) but I would have to say hunting is what interests me. Country Joe

Dried cat food. It's small, easy to use and mine just seem to love it. Country Joe

I have read all this post and find the subject very interesting. Would love to come to a seminar and learn more about it. I have never trained a dog this way but having said that some general comments would be It's easier to proof dogs against distractions like rabbits if the dog has never hunted them. The English retriever trainers often use a rabbit pen I would like to see a few dogs trained this way hunted over live game. Just to see if they still hold the toy in such high regard when there is blooded fresh game at hand. The only hunting bred dogs I have seen up till now that don't go up another gear with live game lack the genetic background to be good hunting dogs. (not attacking your dogs breeding here Sardog) Country Joe.