Christina

What people tend to forget is that they can get undesirable traits, like hereditary illnesses or faults that may be different in each breed that there are not always tests for. Put them together & pups now have a double chance of having something that may not be common or occur in the original breed. Also not knowing the ancestors, pedigree & background of the dogs behind them how would they know about risk of things like epilepsy or luxating patellas, for example ? They wouldn't. Then factor in that there is no actual or factual prediction of what these dogs will look like. Pups get random parts of parents & not all equally so some may look very cute while others in the same litter can look extremely weird. In the cat world one can apply for an experimental breeding licence to cross pedigree cats to produce a new breed. Tonkinese are a cross between Siamese & Burmese & a beautiful cat but if granted it is strictly supervised. All kittens except those retained for breeding must be desexed. Those kept for breeding must be checked over by a judge & vet. They are not allowed to be called the breed desired until they have bred true for 4 generations, I think it is. This means first that someone must get other breeders to agree to supply the original cats, which most will not do. It also means many cats are bred once only then desexed & re homed to get the desired result. The gene pool is small, which can be problematic. Not many breeders want to create new breeds, they are happy enough generally with what is around but a few new ones are appearing in the last few years. Traits are not 100% guaranteed in any breed, they can be variable to a degree in the same breed & good breeders will know their lines traits. I don't understand why people want so much more choice & fads when we have so many breeds to choose from already.

Overall people have become increasingly intolerant of any kind of noise. Even children playing annoys some neighbours. While I agree a constantly barking, yapping or whining dog that never stops can become irritating especially at night I still think people expect too much generally. Dogs bark & they are supposed to bark not live in a silent world where they only bark if someone comes to your door. Living rural & having a pack mine can be noisy at times & all know the word quiet but don't always obey depending on the level of stimulation. They have certain barks for certain things. My old boy hates spiders & will yap in this weird pitch that I recognise if there is a huntsman around. At present I have a girl on heat & my almost 14 year old boy wants to get to her & keeps doing this really high pitched cross between a yip & a bark. Its awful & he has done it most of the night on & off. I want to kill him :laugh: & keep yelling oh shut up but that's only to make me feel better as he is going deaf & can't hear me from the bedroom. Apart from this particular carry on which is only temporary I don't mind if they make some noise, pretty much used to it. I did find when I lived in the city my dogs were quieter, maybe I did teach them to be quiet more, can't remember.

How awful. I cannot understand why the sitter didn't have a back up plan in case of illness or emergency. Once someone asked me to go in to see to their cats daily while they were away. I organised 2 friends as back up in case anything cropped up unexpectedly & I couldn't get there. Didn't end up doing it anyway but thought anyone doing this would have plan B. Hope they find the poor pets soon.

Not totally but partly relevant to this thread, which I agree is going around in circles now. I get so fed up of hearing how desexing should be made free, cheaper or more easily accessible. There are cheap desexing programmes around & many vets offer pensioner discounts & vets are not a charity, they are businesses with staff & overheads to pay & want to earn a living by doing their work. Shopping around at vets, which can be done by phone, for prices is easy enough & prices are very variable. I have heard from $60 to $100 for a male kitten. Same operation so why I have no idea. When a person plans to get a pet, or even adopts one without planning, like a starving stray, no matter how low their income if they cannot put $10 or even $5 a week away for a short time to pay this once in a lifetime cost then they should not be getting or keeping a pet of any kind. Keeping the pet indoors & not letting it roam until desexed is not rocket science either. That small amount each week may mean not buying a lottery ticket, cigarettes, a snack or drink when out or altering the menu to spend $5 less, short term.

I think that the statement may be misinterpreted Does it say registered pedigree breeders or just breeders ? If it just says breeders they are meaning everyone who breeds dogs including pet cross bred dogs, puppy farm dogs, unregistered pure breed owners & registered pedigree breeders, who are the minority of the whole lot. So if that is what they mean I don't blame them. Most of the dogs that end up in the pounds or are abandoned are not pedigrees with papers or even a definite breed. Though an rare few may be. For your own breeding experience your aim should be to breed the best possible dogs, in every way, & ensure that there is demand & good homes for them. If you check internet sales & what is available in your breed & then keep checking if they are still available that is a guide but you must check at all times of the year, a 3 week period only informs of that 3 weeks. Buyers having long waiting lists for a particular breed is an indication too but if its only 1 or 2 breeders that just may mean that they are popular & in demand. Sometimes it can be down to experience as well. If you have one good entire girl & put her to stud & cannot find homes for your puppies you have the option of desexing her & even showing her as a neuter There are many factors in regard to finding homes for puppies. How fussy are you ? Do you turn some people down ? Does your chosen breed need specific requirements that most people cannot fill ? How is your own personality when dealing with people ? How do your surroundings & environment present to visitors ? How are your puppies raised ? What obligations/support after sale will you fill ? And more. So many variables to the actual statement the RSPCA made & so many variables to your question. There is no straight or clear simple reply. Much to think about before you begin breeding generally.

Small dogs do need to be picked up a lot in life so he needs to get used to it. I have always had small dogs & breed & have never bred or got one from anyone else that didn't like being picked up. Does he do this inside the house or only outside ? If only outside I would put him on a long extension lead each time he goes out for a couple of days & reward him when he is reeled in to come to you, as long as he doesn't struggled too much. Chasey is not a good game. If its anytime & inside too stand him on a table safely & gently feel him all over for any sore spots. Gently feel each bone in his spine, around his ribs & in his joints. feel all over for any lumps, swellings or tender spots. A sore rib can be ok but really hurt when being picked up. I would not run to a chiropractor, vet first is better if you find anything. There is no way of knowing why he is this way or what has happened but its not normal for a young puppy if he does it inside & outside. Outside its often usual not to want to come in. I got a 2 year old cat that had not been handled much & won't come to me & runs away although she is not unfriendly, talks to me & has not been mistreated & found when in the run it is better for me to stand still until she gradually gets nearer & then pick her up. If I follow her around she runs more & faster than I can. Food tricked her a few times but then she got smart. Its either a matter of patience & training or there is a sore spot. If he has only been with you for about 4 weeks it may just be puppy silliness & he needs more time.

Hi Christina, why are toy poodles not recommended for agility? I only ask because I'm researching breeds. My boy is a whippet and I guess I'm not really qualified to answer because I didn't choose him for myself and I'm still getting to know the breed. :) I love this kind of discussion though - breed histories and functions. Sorry to go OT and not to add more to the discussion. Some do agility with them & are very successful. They are a lively dog that can usually jump very well but It is a breed with a high incidence of luxating patella so even if your particular dog has not got it I still consider it a risk to cause it, although any dog can injure its leg anyway. The other reason is the small size. Tiny bones are harder to mend & repair than larger bones & they are a tiny dog. I discourage jumping & don't allow pups to jump on the lounge until they are 6 months old at least.

Think toy poodles were meant to be a lap/companion dog otherwise they wouldn't have bred the size down. However they are generally very active little dogs & not generally couch potatoes. They will chase birds & react to wildlife. The biggest problem with them being lap/companion dogs is people letting them get overweight. They do like exercise, can walk a long way with those little legs & run like the wind. Not recommended for agility though. So temperament, being affectionate, good natured & loving people is the main purpose for them I guess.

I must have been an awful mother :laugh: When I had 3 children under 5 I used to put 2 on dog leads & push the baby in the pram, not around the neck though. It was the only way I could go out & be in control alone with 3 of them & we didn't have those wrist things then & they grew too big for the walking harnesses.

Growing up in the UK & being there until I was 35 I don't think its a case of socially responsible its a different attitude to wards dogs & them being much more socialised & accepted in more public places. When my son was age 8 a neighbours teenager was walking her Jack Russel on the lead. Family dog used to kids including mine. My son ran past, maybe a bit close, & the dog bit him on the leg. Minor skin break but had tetanus shot. We didn't report it to the police & council or go overboard. Lessons learned were that the teenager needed to shorten the leash when kids were running around & my son learned don't run too close to any dog. Any dog can bite given a certain set of circumstances. Sometimes I can understand why the dog would bite & a token nip or warning growl is not the end of the world IMO. Sometimes it is how the child learns to respect the dog too. I cannot understand when a dog mauls & viciously keeps on attacking that is a completely different scenario. Maybe the child ran too close & startled the dog. It sounds like it was a minor matter but now it probably has basically stuffed it up for all dog owners taking them in.

Sorry. Oh no. I didn't see that. Totally insane to agree to that.

I don't think anyone has said its ok to take mum away when pups are 4 weeks old I interpreted the terms to mean that pups must have started weaning at 4 weeks old, not be independent. If the owner is new to breeding it may have been put in the conditions in case they didn't know how much of a strain it can be on the mum if weaning isn't started by then, especially with a large litter. Even my tiny toy poodle pups will have a little food at about day 21 & my current litter of 6 siamese kittens were all eager to get stuck into food at day 28 but that doesn't mean mums aren't with them. They are, pups for about 10 weeks & kittens for about 12 weeks, which I think is about the normal time or close. Weaning doesn't mean mums have to be taken away.

How offensive In response to this & my full quote is not shown above anyone who has read my regular posts on here would know that I never intend to be offensive. I was merely stating what looked to be a wind up & that anyone who thought seriously about the subject would realise at least some of the many costs involved but that lots of people really do not think deeply on this matter. That is not being offensive. It does happen on here quite a bit. I have not posted any personal offensive comment about the poster. Nothing to be mad about. Merely an observation that may have been valid. There was no need to add my list of costs as many had posted them before me & I did comment that the poster would now understand. Re Panlu posts because I don't know how to multi quote Not much to say about the breeders terms as it was a choice you made but re weaning pups at 4 weeks old that is absolutely fine & a sensible thing to do especially with a large litter, The breeder won't expect them to be fully weaned at that age of course but starting them on some sloppy solids at about 3 weeks is reasonable & wise.

May be great for cats too maybe started a little higher. My dogs have various beds all over the house but the lounge is the favourite place. Good news about dogs being allowed in Bunnings, they are banned from so many public places now.

Exactly. Everyone complains about the cost of everything but it would be no use if the price of everything was controlled. People run businesses for profit not as charities or our society wouldn't work at all. Its up to the consumer to shop around for the best price & decide do they really need this item or not. There are cheaper alternatives of controlling fleas & worms & making the decision of how much chemical product does my dog need, which can be based on environment & lifestyle. Basically if you want a product you have to pay the asking price for it.

Oh don't worry threads go all over the place where the poster didn't intend it to happen. Makes it interesting though :) The ethics of either animals or people killing animals or other people is totally variable according to the circumstances & peoples personal opinions & beliefs. You have made it clear that you were only impressed by his recall anyone who read it properly would know that.

Snakes are native species too & no one complains when the cat goes into battle with them & is the victor. Thinking about it more people kill our native snakes more than cats do. Humans kill more animals than all the other animal species put together. Gosh I am unusually arguementative today :laugh:

Cats shouldn't be allowed to roam (and kill) Double standards I cannot understand the double standard when people go mad about cats killing birds but don't mind one bit when they kill rats, mice & snakes. Aren't they wildlife & living creatures too ? I agree cats should not be allowed to roam & mine don't but its not for the birds sake as I believe birds reproduce faster & more than cats & most well fed domestic cats don't kill & eat a huge amount. Having said that my cats have outside enclosed runs & I took 2 dead bird out of one bed yesterday. Silly birds go in the runs & in one the sparrows nest in the top which I constantly block & they always return. They sit on a big tree branch in there & eat the cat biscuits out of the cats bowl. Suicidal tendencies My toy poodles also catch an odd bird but not frequently & I have to pen around one low tree they nest in every year, despite having plenty of high options. Back on track the OP said she was proud of the dogs recall not of it killing the bird.

Never felt what one of these collars do so can anyone enlighten me as to what the highest setting can do to the dog ? No use asking about lower settings as the highest setting is on there it can be used & would be by some.

Well it is not exactly the same. One can hardly compare vaccination with a shock collar or whatever you want to call it. Knowing human nature I am against them too. If a complete stranger is being paid hundreds of dollars to train a dog using this method I guess they need to get a good result. So how much of a shock does it take & how do we know how much of a shock they get ? Up to the persons personal integrity & not able to be monitored & that is variable in any section of the human race. For the non professional trainers who may get their hands on this device it could be anything goes, we cannot know. My dogs have seen only one snake but several lizards & baby birds when I am there I yell leave it, move away or sit & stay depending how close they are to it & what direction it is moving in. Not there I don't know but I can only make my yard that the dogs use safe as possible & snake unfriendly, check before I let them out & hope for the best which I consider better than using this particular training method which still may not work if the dogs are alone. One could argue that a very tiny & slight tap on the nose may work as well as a shock collar if they are that kind & gentle that they only cause a tiny amount of discomfort. Which I do not believe. How high can they actually turn them up ?

Agree with above to a degree. Naughty is a human thing. Dogs are just dogs & don't understand it in the same way. They only really obey when you are there unless they have had some horrid aversion therapy. Sometimes seems to us that they are naughty though with some of the things they do.

I think the OP is just a wind up & someone has a big wooden spoon in their hand :) If not guess they have got the picture now. In general re dogs & breeding people don't really think about the whole subject in depth. That's why they still buy at pet shops etc.

I have had 2 times where I just couldn't stay. Most times I do. Sometimes its just too stressful being with the pet when you are shaking so much & in a state it makes it worse for them. I wouldn't judge anyone for not staying if they can't cope with it. I also leave them at the vets as I buried a dog in my grounds once & was in a terrible state every time I walked near the spot I got the horrors about him being there buried & rotting. Ashes in an urn wouldn't comfort me either. Its not them anymore & I prefer my memories to be of when they were alive not have the reminder of their dead body in front of me. I can never go in cemeteries either. The vibes & sadness are overwhelming & crushing to me. I can't cope with death that way. We all cope in a different way & it doesn't mean we are heartless. You cannot see inside the other persons head & heart.

The above concerns me the most however I do wonder how any of the proposed laws can make some people caring, responsible owners who look after their dogs properly, we can't even make some people look after their children properly. Re the complulsary desexing although not popular with everyone I can see the point in introducing it for pet dogs, although the age its done at should be extended for larger breeds. It does stop unwanted pregnancy & litters & can make it more convenient & easier for pet owners to manage their pets. For male dogs it can help in preventing humping, marking, escaping & wandering & hunting down bitches on heat & for female dogs it makes it cleaner & less likely to attract males to the property as well as obviously not being able to get pregnant. Although many people on here say they manage entire pets fine this is not the larger population who are mostly not so capable or understanding of dog habits & behaviour. The amount of healthy dogs & cats in the pounds that are euthanised is a disgrace in a so called pet loving country & makes me feel sick. Desexing may help reduce this although it will never save them all.

Probably wasting your breath but one point is that You can have a breed that may be prone to a health problem. As an example the toy poodle & early blindness & the cavalier with heart issues. A registered purebred breeder will genetically test for these & not breed with such dogs. A backyard breeder will not test & may not even know what they are. The complete idiot will quote hybrid vigour & breeding the gene out, which of course they can do by having a live litter & sending them all on their way at 6 or 8 weeks old with nothing wrong with them & claiming it is nothing to do with them if the dog has a problem a year later, if they even know Similar situation for me recently. My friends husband, & they breed pedigree cats, could see nothing amiss in getting a large back yard bred pure breed male to put over his large cross bred female to get puppies. She is not impressed but can't do anything however she bought a cross bred dog too a few years back so go figure that out