Seita

I think there is a flaw in this idea of marking the action of going into a sit is that it doesn't require the dog to actually sit. If I marked her action of going into a sit she may still end up sitting slowing and what did I mark for in the end?? I say yes when her butt is on the ground, when I was training the sit I might have marked the action of going into a sit but she knows what sit is, she also knows that she needs to sit when I stop she just doesn't see the point of sitting quickly. I did a few sessions this week where I simple didn't let her finish the sit if she was too slow... I moved away and gave her a nrm. And at today's trial we had lovely fast sits, only one was a bit slow in the whole trial. I have no issues with using an e-collar on a low stim on pretty much any breed as long as the dog's temperment is fine to use it with. I am not talking up putting the collar at maximum stim and zapping the daylights out of the poor dog, I am talking about potentionally using a low level "irritating" stim to give the dog a bit of an aversive to what it's doing and teach the dog that the faster it's butt hits the ground the faster that "irritating" stim disappears. I don't know how to get a nrm to work the same way as this. Which is why I think a small correction timed well would work. My own training rule is no corrections until the dog knows what it's doing, so during the learning phase and then into the proofing phase I will not use correction. But when a dog knows what is expected and decides to do otherwise then I feel that a reasonable correction is fine (by this I mean within reason of the dog, its temperment and what it is being corrected for). In this case Ella clearly knows that sits are required, she also knows that I expect fast sits as she does give them to me sometimes but I think she thinks that sitting is a waste of time and gets in the road of what is coming next so she hesitates and slows it down waiting and anticipating the next command. Yes this is a training issue, I know that I slipped up somewhere and let her get away with being slow on the sits and now she has formed a bit of a habit. Now it is a case of teaching her that slow sits do not earn her a reward.

My dogs know they aren't allowed in bedrooms either. Everytime one goes in I've just told them "out" or escorted them out while telling them "out" and then made a fuss of them when they are outside the door. The pup (5 months old) is slowly learning and will usually hover outside the door when I go in, however is someone is in the bed then that is often just too much of a temptation for him and he will go in but he is learning gradually that it's not ok to do that. Like everyone else has said, consistency is key.

That's what I did with my girl too, I didn't take her to a group class until she was proofed at the local park and in the dog park. Now that really is good training once your dog is at that sort of level! OT - I tried to do some training at home with my girl the other day while the puppy was loose, I gotta tell you a 5 month old pup hanging off the ear of the adult dog I'm trying to train is probably the biggest distraction she's ever had to face! And she still tried to heel as best she could!!

What type of training in drive do you do cosmolo? My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. We are talking about getting a quicker sit for a trialling dog, not modifying a behavioral issue. Seita, if your dog needs a lead on to get a quick sit, you will probably never get a fast, enthusiastic sit without it long term (worthy of a perfect score) IMO I really think that you will find the answer in your drive training method. This is why I haven't wanted to use correction up until now and why I was thinking an ecollar on low stim might achieve what I'm after better than a leash correction. Staranais has a good point here too with using a verbal bridge which I think it what I'm going to have to do. Go back to asking for a sit with a voice command and then drop that command out gradually. I will start after this weekend's state trials and go back to basics on the sits and hopefully fix the problem.

What kind of puppy? Sorry to go OT. A BC puppy, she has some photos that Ruthless took posted in the photo section, her name is Rhythm. Sorry as well for going OT but you need to post some piccies in the bc thread! She is sooo adorable!!!

I too think you can combine drive and ecollar work. I haven't worked with an e-collar before but would like to get one at some point.

sorry double post

I can't do it but it might be helpful to say whereabouts the test is going to be!?!

Footwork is the same for all stops (sit,stand,drop). I stop on my right and bring my left up. She sits slowly at random times, some days are good some are bad. It doesn't just happen in the trial ring. She is fully focussed on me while going into the sit, I never really lose focus during heelwork. I have pretty much removed the sit from block heeling, I use stands and drops most of the time. In a seperate exercise I work solely on sits, usually in quick heel, sit successions rewarding the fast sits only. I think I'll go back a step to using a voice command all the time and making a big fuss over good fast sits and once I have consistency there I'll start dropping the voice command out again gradually. I tried Ptolomy's suggestion on use of the nrm this morning and I think we had a bit of improvement during the session, I guess we'll see how this works over the next couple of sessions. I found that a small pop on the lead also improves speed during a session but I don't always work on a lead... might be time to invest in an e-collar, I've wanted one for a while...

Simply because after all the time I spent on the net with search engines looking for one - Oxley was the only club that came up that seemed local. I only found out Southside existed about a week ago - after I had already paid for our membership at Oxley! They may need to work on their internet advertising. LOL, I am working on it! I used to train at Oxley but their times no longer suit so have switched to Southside and yes I agree there is not much info out there about them!

Ahh I need to teach this too!!! I started asking for a stand from a sit or a drop for fun and in case I ever felt like doing UDX but Ella moves foward a fair bit... this looks much much better!

There aren't any ccc affilated clubs near camp hill, closest would be oxley or southside I'd say. I don't know about private clubs around the area. I would suggest Southside over Oxley as my own personal prefference and opinion if they do decide they'd like to go to one of those clubs. Boarding kennels... I used Bowhill Kennels last time I boarded a dog (they're out in Durack) and was happy with them. Offtopic, Callee is there a reason that you go all the way to oxley when Southside at Runcorn is probably closer?

Good point, I'll try that in our next training session and see how that works. It's ok, I didn't explain it very clearly!

I meant increasing how much I reward her with the tug for sits specifically. I usually reward (with the tug) for a good heel exercise (say 20 steps with a command or two in there). I stopped rewarding for every sit she did once she had the idea and I could add more steps/commands before rewarding with the tug. The tug has never disappeared from training, she has just had to work harder to get it. How do you suggest using TOT, I do use TOT but have never really used it as part of my training in drive? In Ella's language "yes" means you are getting paid with the tug (the best reward she knows and wants). I can't really give her a tug for every sit she does. I do give the tug for some sits, same as I do for other exercises on a fairly random schedule. She also gets a nrm when she hasn't done a good enough job and for her that means she isn't getting paid.... I'm not sure what you are suggesting I do in my training program?

She doesn't get a reward for slow sits, she gets a nrm and we try again. I reward the fast sits with a yes and have started to bring back the tug for some of those fast sits to make it clear that fast sits are the way to get rewarded. But it still isn't giving me consistency, she was doing rocket fast sits on Monday night at training but this morning out at the park she was back to giving me slow sits again... I try to ensure my footwork and body language is the same all the time and has always given a 'yes' for fast sits during training but the problem is still there. The only reason I want to fix it is that I really want that perfect score! I'll also just mention that this isn't a new problem, she's been doing this since we started competing at the start of last year it's just started to bug me now. She does sit and most of the time it is within 2 or 3 seconds, I'm just being fussy and want instant sits!

See my issue is that I do train in drive and she is really fast on the drops or anything else that has a voice command associated with it but she sits really slowly when I stop and don't say anything (which is all the time in competition). You can see her virtually trembling out of anticipation for the next command which is what leads me to believe that she is sitting slowly because she thinks there is another command coming immediately.

I haven't done it yet but really want to do it at some point. I have heard alot of good feedback about it though!

Nobody has any ideas? Just to clarify, she sits slowly in anticipation for what is coming next.

Ditto what Huski said. Prongs are a good training tool but like all they need to be used properly. After seeing a trainer you might find that you can achieve what you want on a martingale or another training tool.

Ok, so I am on a mission to get that elusive 200 score in obedience. I consistently lose one or two points per exercise due to messy finishes, comes that stop a little too far in front and my biggest peeve slow sits! I can fix the finishes and fronts, those are the way they are due to lack of consistent training on my part but the sits I can't seem to fix. I was discussing how to fix them with a friend at a trial on the weekend as we are both cursed with them. Neither of us could come up with a method that would fix them permanently, we get good days and bad days with the sits! I have tried heel, sit, heel sit etc and only rewarding fast sits but I'm not getting fast sits consistently from that. If I bring back the sit voice command I get fast sits but auto sits are still slow. I haven't resorting to adding in a correction as yet but am considering a small pop on a correction collar for slow sits but am unsure if that will improve consistency. Does anyone have some good, proven games or exercises to improve the speed of auto sits as I'm sick of getting 29's and 19's for exercises because of them!!!

I would also increase the distance from the other dogs to a point where you can get your dog to focus a bit more on what you want him to do. I will be taking my young pup (4.5months) to training for the first time tonight and will be just working and playing with him near a class at a distance where I can keep his focus. I'm not putting him into an actual class rather just getting him used to focussing on me near distractions and I will let him dictate how close to those distractions we can go without him losing focus from me. I strongly believe in teaching new things in a low distraction environment first and then increasing distractions... that's why I think group classes are not the best place to train a dog, rather they are a great place to learn how to train your dog. The real training should happen at home and later at parks and other places as you increase the level of distractions that your dog can work with. Also most group training classes don't mind if you work off to the side a bit or do a bit of your own thing if your dog is struggling or getting bored in the class.

Ok, I have searched everywhere for the rules associated with these awards (actually I think you get sent a pin or something like that). Do they still exist, are they only in Qld and what are the rules to getting them? I know it's for dogs with an Open title, and you need to get a certain number of qualifies over 185 for the silver and 190 for the gold. But but I can't remember how many or how to apply.

In case anyone hasn't heard or knows someone who is entered in this trial who might not be aware. The trial isn't expected to get started until 9am on Sunday morning due to some gundog runs being conducted nearby earlier in the morning. There will be guns firing so if anyone has dogs that may not cope with the sound of gunshots it might be best to arrive a bit later to avoid freaking your dogs out.

I have a vocal pup too! He's a border collie, currently 20 weeks old and he loves to bark and tell everyone that he's not impressed or unhappy about something! I am ignoring most of the behaviour but if it gets excessive he gets told off, muzzeled and when he calms down he gets praised and the muzzel removed. If he's still being difficult at 6 months then the bark collar will come out but not before then... I just have to learn to cope with the insane barking that he does for much of his day. Oh and to make you feel better - no amount of exercise or training seems to change the amount of barking he does. He seems to be a stubborn pup who is just going to take a while to learn that calm dogs get attention and praise and noisy dogs get ignored or corrected.

Tricks and fun games are good as well for tiring puppies out. Checkout Dog Scouts for lots of really good ideas for games, tricks and general training. I like games like "find it", tricks like shake hands, roll over, wave. As well as basic obedience - come, sit, stay are all good basics. I do a short walk with my pup (18 weeks), mostly off lead so he can run and sniff and then I do a short training session most mornings and that seems to work with him.