Seita

I've only trialled one entire bitch and haven't found any issues with her really. She does tend to go off just a bit the week or so before a season (I found this out at last year's state trials as she came in season a week later) and I don't tend to train much during a season so haven't really noticed any drop off in her drive. I tend to avoid trialling in the week or two before a season and also for a week or two after a season to ensure there aren't any hormones playing up! Ella is pretty keen to work at any time though, three hours before having her first litter she was still keen to do some training, and this didn't stop the whole time she had the litter! She was keen to work the whole way through! :-) In answer to the OP's question, I have trained a desexed male, a desexed bitch and now my entire bitch. I can't compare the male to the girls as he wasn't trained in a way that worked for him so he never was a very good competition dog, looking back now though I think he would have been a sensational trial dog if I had trained him differently. And I haven't really noticed any difference between the entire or the desexed bitches, they had different temperments but both were/are willing to please, keen to learn and seemed to love working for me. My next dog will be an entire male, although I'll probably hold off on allowing him to be used at Stud until I've got the titles etc on him that I want!! LOL

I think you can have a good competition dog from any breed, it all boils down to temperment, drive and trainability. Some breeds just have the right mix more commonly than others that's all! I've seen all manner of breeds competing from yorkshire terriers, to great danes, to american bull dogs, Old English Sheepies, Malamutes and Spaniels (note, not all of these breeds were great competition dogs but some were). I don't think you can simply pick a breed, as in all breeds there are variations, I know some border collies that you would have to drag around an agility course and I can think of one particular french bulldog who when it's fully trained is going to do better than some border collies I know at obedience trials! Pick a breed you like, then find a breeder who tends to breed the temperment/trainability that you want and then wait for a puppy! Or go to the rescues like someone else suggested! I have border collies despite the fact that I don't have the lifestyle that people typically associate with borders - ie I don't do long walks/runs regularly, I don't have an overly large yard, I only own one at the moment and she has never seen sheep, I use training as an outlet for her energy which suits us both! If I had to pick a breed that matched my lifestyle I'd probably end up with something I couldn't compete with very well!

And if you don't see her... just keep an ear out for some "woo woo wooing"!!

I think it's hard to answer your question properly because every dog is also different in it's levels of drive. Not all dogs have a high level of drive so them in drive will look different to a dog that is bursting with drive. Perhaps compare a Working line bred Malanois to a Maltese and get them both into play/prey drive and you will see that drive will look different with both. Staranais explained the physical characteristics of drive very well... you just need to understand that flight, fight, play, food are all different drives and can result in the same physcial characteristics. Perhaps some more thorough research is required if we can't seem to "show" you what you want?

Very well said Staranais! To be honest I don't think I could tell the difference between dogs trained in different drives (food/prey) if I look at the end result which is what you are asking Corvus. But I can certainly tell what a dog looks like that has been trained to utelise even some elements of it's natural drive. I think to try and answer what you are looking for is - a dog trained using it's natural drives (whether that's food, pack, prey/play etc) will have a look of enthusiasm, eagerness, speed, attentiveness and I think you will see a dog that is really wired and ready/keen to respond in an instant. You don't see this in a dog that isn't trained utelising it's natural drives as much, a dog that isn't being trained with any real form of drive work tends to be sloppy, a bit slower, not generally as attentive, they may still do all the commands and possibly even score well but you don't tend to see as much enthusiasm and energy in them. These descriptions are based on dogs I've trained, my current dog has a strong prey drive and is trained with toys and tugs etc, my previous dog had a high pack drive but I didn't really build on it too much and she was an average working dog with none of the real enthusiasm that my current girl has. The dog before that was even worse, he had high food drive but training with food was not really done at that time so he was trained with a lot of compulsion and not much else, needless to say he pretty much shut off when we walked into a ring, there was none of the things I described about a dog trained in drive with him.

I could sooo take that dog home right now!!!

My girl isn't particularly good with kids so she either goes into her crate, locked in the laundry if the kids are being too annoying when she's in the crate or sometimes outside. I bring her out on a leash and let the kids pat her while they and she are calm. I preffer her to be in the crate where she can see everything (it's in the lounge room) but often kids poke fingers in there and stress her out despite my asking them not to numerous times, thats when she gets put out of sight with a bone to keep her safe and calm! I can't avoid kids, I don't like them but I have 17 neices and nephews so I don't really have a choice!!

This is what I see in Annie when I train her in drive – that desperation, she would do absolutely anything to get the ball. The adrenalin is pumping and it takes all her effort to control herself and work before getting the reward. When she is working, it's only me, her and the ball - nothing else exists. For example we've just started recalls and she explodes out of the sit/drop position so fast that she comes barrelling into me (we’re working on that!). TID allows her to achieve a level of intensity that she otherwise wouldn’t. LOL I used to have the same problem! Love that enthusiasm!!

I think the reason is to engage the dog with the handler which involves pack drive as well as prey drive reward, it teaches the dog that the handler controls the reward and that all good things come from the handler. I throw my toys and things to the side now but not as a reward I throw them as a distraction so she learns to still look at me to get the release word to go get it and bring it back to me for the worlds greatest game (in her eyes). Just another thought on the remote reward thingy which I forgot to mention before. I leave my drive reward with my chair/crate etc so it doesn't go anywhere near the rings, my dog knows it's there and the moment I leave the ring we run to it and have a big game of tug as a reward. Everytime I trigger her into drive in the ring (my working command) she knows she's going to get paid, and after every exercise when I say "yes" she is reminded that she is going to get paid. In some of my videos you can see Ella head to the edge of the ring in search of her reward because she's heard me say yes and she knows she'll get paid soon but she is anticipating it in those situations cos her 'pay day' reward is ok!!

Traditional obedience training is more about supressing drive than building and using it unfortunately. I hadn't heard of drive before I got Ella either.

Just one thing that needs to be remembered here is that, with my girl for example, her drive has been channeled into working for me to achieve her reward. So she might look like she's just very focussed etc, which is why I posted the training videos as well as the final outcome. Dogs have 3 primary positive drives (I'll leave rank, avoidance and flight out at the moment and concentrate on food, prey and pack), often a dog won't be working in just one drive at a time but most dogs will have a primary drive. An example is a dog chasing a cat or other animal, that dog is primarily in prey drive (chasing) but that dog is also probably in food drive (when it captures the prey it gets food) so it satisfies those drives. Training in drive teaches the dog that it's handler is the key to achieve drive satisfaction, the first stage of training in drive is building drive for something whether thats food or prey (now I'm using the word prey here which means chasing a toy so you can refer to it as play drive if you like), once you have the dog to a good level of drive for that thing, then you start adding control and focus so teaching the dog that to achieve the reward it needs to follow the handlers commands. The drive building is the key part of this method as it teaches the dog to use everything it's got - energy, adrenaline, phsycial power etc to get it's reward which ultimately ends with a very alert, very confident, very reliable dog. Continuing with the example of a dog chasing something, has anyone ever had a dog take off after something and when you call it you get no response? Well that dog is in drive and when a dog is in drive it ignores things like noise and often pain as well, that is probably the key element of training in drive. Another example with my dog, Ella is fear agressive she cannot tolerate being near other dogs and will snap at them out of fear if they are too close. But when I ask her to go into prey drive she focusses so much on me that she doesn't see or hear the other dogs and will heel right in front of a lunging dog and pay no attention to it... out of drive I wouldn't get within 2 meters of that dog. To me this is one of the most important aspects of training in drive. Sorry if I've rambled a bit! Perhaps someone can convince K9Force to come in here and explain drive a bit better - there is a good article on his website about drive and how it works for those who are interested in the chemical reaction that goes on in dog's heads when they are in drive.

Ok I'll bite. First clip is an early drive building session with Ella. The aim of the game is to build up drive for her toy, part way through the clip you can see that she completely shuts down and drops out of drive... you can see the distinct difference between her being "in prey drive" for the ball and being "out of drive" (ie not engaged) - http://www.youtube.com/nicoleleyden#p/u/14/M9lzWg1Y3LE Here is a later session of training in drive where we've progressed to heelwork - it's still in need of fine tuning at this stage but has progressed along way. You can see she is chewing on a bone at the start and you can see her "trigger" into drive: http://www.youtube.com/nicoleleyden#p/u/9/TRhgp28SQPQ And finally an Open trial in drive, well the first part of one any way, the other half is on my channel somewhere. http://www.youtube.com/nicoleleyden#p/u/3/tca-qcvSE9o

You mean she's Steve's Training In Drive pin up girl!!

Ella started in Steve's drive training program at around 5/6 months old and hadn't had any (and I mean ANY) training prior, I left her pretty much green until I started the program. She took about 2 years to get a reliable trialling level and then blitzed through ccd, cd and cdx in 6 months and straight passes. We played around in open last year to pass the time (and had a couple of whoopsies mostly due to my poor handling) and we hope to hit the UD rings this year. LOL loving all these people who are answering for me!!

For those who aren't sure about trianing in drive: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=43795 this topic talks about prey drive and using it to get focus and control in an obedience setting. I train using prey drive, I'm not perfect and am always learning, but as a result of training this way I believed that I have a better and more consistent working dog.

what's your website dyzney??

I'd love one for my Ud gear as the old foldup chair bag doesn't quite do the job! I would probably need it just slightly longer than that as each side of my box is 1.55 metres and the longest part of my jumps is 1.5 metres although with the ample depth on the current bag I could probably get it all in there. How proffessional would we all look with our equipment in one of these bags!!!?

I didn't teach it by sight. Care to share your method? From other posts by some ppl from WA I got the impression that the exercise was mostly taught by sight, I appologise if I was wrong!

Most of the BC guys up here (and in other states I've noticed) wear dark pants/skirts (usually black) with a coloured jacket. I tend to do the same but preffer to wear browns, greys and whites on the bottom as I don't like wearing black with a black dog as it hides the topline a bit. Some others do wear the pant/skirt suits in a mirade of colours, I do confess to owning a lilac skirt suit but I just can't bring myself to wear it!! And as someone else said make sure you're comfortable in it - I bought this lovely pair of red pants when I first start showing and felt soo uncomfortable with such a bright colour that I never wore them! I think you could get away with a nice pair of pants or a skirt with a blouse if you don't want to wear a jacket, although there are some light weight short sleeved ones that look good and aren't too hot!

Haven't got to this stage yet. I will definitely do a bit of it once she can run passed the two jumps and go directly to the box. I took everything to the park today and set the box in some longish grass (you could just see the box) and sent her from a reasonable distance and she took off on a random angle but once she spotted the box she ran straight to it without any probs. I am fairly certain she understands the command box and what that means I think she just got confused when I started asking her to jump after going to the box and she thought she should go over the jumps on both ways! I figured it would be a fairly common green UD dog problem. So I've increased the number of sends to the box passed the jumps without going to do the directed jumping and already in a few sessions she's getting much more reliable with it. Ok another one now! For those who teach their dogs to track or those who teach their dogs to retrieve the seek back by smell not by sight. I know you WAers tend to teach by sight and why wouldn't you if there are such lovely grounds over there! Unfortunately we're not so blessed with nice LEVEL grounds here so Ella needs to find it by scent. She always finds it but is very random in her direction and can often wander quite a distance from where I've walked. I'd like to teach her to follow the track a bit closer if possible but am not entirely sure what the best way to do this might be... any suggestions??

I don't need one for an umbrella but rather for my UD gear- box and two pull apart poly pipe jumps. I reckon they would fit into a standard beach umbrella sized bag! I was thinking of making myself one but really I'm too lazy and I don't own a sewing machine!!

Have you taught your dog to "sight" the box? Have you put the box in different locations (tall grass etc) and sent her? Have you done the box from multiple distances? Yes she sights the box, yes I have moved the box around and sent her to it and yes I've done it from many distances. She had no problems with going between the jumps etc when I first put the two parts together but after asking her to go to the box and then go over a jump she has started to go over a jump on the way to the box.

Ok I think I have a "proper" problem now! So we are training for UD and in the last few weeks we've finally got the directed jumping exercise together into one peice, however just in the last few sessions she keeps heading over the same jump (left hand when facing box) on the way out to the box. I know she is still very much a novice dog at all this so understand why she's getting confused but I want to check what different suggestions people might have on dealing with this. I'm going to separate it back into two parts (the send away and the directed jumps) and only put them fully together every once in a while, is this what most people do?

She used to be like that until she got the tick!

Ok I have a problem! My dog can't keep up with me anymore!! She's still recovering from a tick so runs out of breath after a reasonably short session still... this sucks cos I'm ultra motivated to train at the moment but can't find time to get lots of sessions in in a day. Me thinks that I need another dog!!