Herr Rottweiler

It hasnt worked on the dogs I have worked on. Out of 10 dogs, 1 had a change in the specific behaviour, however I recommended a diet change in that dog as well which could have attributed more to the behaviour change in my opinion.

Hi guys, Been a whie since I have posted on Dogs online, however I have been reading the interesting threads. Finally made the decision to switch states and leave Victoria behind. Even though theres so much to love about Melbourne, the dog laws are insane and getting worse. There's a group on facebook at the moment moving to sack Joe Helper and his party because of his new pound laws. If you're as concerned about this rampant act of power as I am, get on it. I'm now working at the fantastic Pet Resorts in Dural and Terrigal and loving it. Pet Resorts Looking forward to networking with some fantastic, open minded dog groups in the NSW area if anyone has any suggestions. Regards HR

Depends what its for and how small the budget is

That's old school. :D I'm bringing it back!! ;)

Now thats funny

Ignorance seems to be popular ;) Harsh methods...ok I can understand peoples resistance. As for the tools, their just tools! It's 100% up to the handler to determine in what manner they're used in OR how they're educated to use them. As we have discussed to death in this thread AND many others, we have all seen out share of substandard training methods in all styles, however I feel that modern trends in dog training are a leading cause in euthanasia because people are learning to give up on the dog because punishment is frowned on, where as a quick trip to the vet and a new puppy will make it all better. Who does enjoy doing mean things to their dogs? I dont like it when Police pull me up for speeding and slap a fine on me but I cant say it was mean! The intent is to punish the behaviour. If I get out of the car and attack the Police officer and he Pepper sprays me, I may not like the outcome but it was my behaviour that caused the escalation in the punisher being used. If we're talking about abuse of the tools? Well that's just the grey area we all dig around in to find support. Everything is open to abuse.

Yes I agree Erny.. Once again..the thread is playing politics and looking to demonise another training tool. If correction chains were gone today, the next on the hit list would be the Halti tomorow and then the harness after that. I could only imagine that it will get so silly that breathing heavy next to your dog would be scalded as an aversive technique!! :D

Come on now!! You can hang a dog off the ground with a flat collar!! Should we call them chokers too?

Its disgusting what political correctness has done in so many areas... It's really made dancing bears of everyone so they can conform and not offend! Correction or check chains were called chokers by nimwits who dont know how to use them and just let their dogs gag and choke down the street while they pull them along like sledding Husky's. Nothing wrong with the name correction or check! Thats what they do.

Results is the key! If it works and the outcome is a win win, then what you did was right

Its a step in the right direction.

Nicely said PF Without making a long point of it as I feel it has been adequately mentioned, to ignore aversives in 'generalised' dog training would be foolish and detrimental. A lot of people on this forum have around 5 minutes of experience in dog training and mainly with their own dog, (give or take a few) however there are some of us that have had extensive experience and have trained and worked with more dogs than a human body can cope with. In my experience, if i was to ignore aversives in 'some' of the dogs and attempt a PP stratergy, it would put me the owner/handler and the dog in danger. More emphasis on the dogs danger as their general outcome would be the green dream. Fortunately, experince and balance have helped in some salvation for these owners in their dogs rather than just tell them that nothing more can be done for them as all options have been exhausted. I know the PP camp will counter this and come back with an argument to validate their point of view. I have often been told that I'm one eyed by PP trainers however, the way I see it, In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king

Nicely said

That's just kneejerk silly talk! Why are you accusing people of being clones? The NDTF are the ones saying use a balanced system. If the individual dog doesnt require what another may, then use what you need to get the best results with the aim of finishing with a happy confident dog. The NDTF are not the ones telling people that unless they do what their told and toe the line, they will be drummed out of the organisation and stripped of rank and privillege R+ most definately works..everyone knows it and agrees and any dog trainer/ handler worth their salt will use it to bring about the best of their dog. PP will work on a narrow band of dogs, however as I have stated before, it will bring about the genocide of many recognised breeds if it was the only way people could train. This thread is repetative and getting silly now. It was educational and amusing to begin with but its clear that most of us and going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

ahh ok..i stand corrected then! Thanks for pointing that out

Yes some of these posts are just getting silly and petty now! Poodlefan..that comment about dogs not using P+ on each other...where did you pull that one from? In all my years on spending such a lot of time around dogs and puppies..i can assure you they most certainly dog! They use P+ in the quick snaps and R- in the pin and holds.

I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing about. The thread is about NDTF -vs- Delta Courses. NDTF teaches all four quadrants (P+ P- R+ R-). Delta not only doesn't do that but it vehemently prescribes against P+. We're saying that causes limitations, and often to the detriment of some dogs. You agree that P+ has its place. So ....... I'm not sure what you are arguing about. ditto

everyone can pull examples out of their hat to fuel their story! The whole balanced perspective is, as Erny stated, not having to use P+ but having it available if need be! P+ is demonised so much to the point that the sheer mention of it has people feeling like their beating their animals with wooden blocks! Seriously people! Ignorance truely is bliss. Jeanne, I wouldnt imagine your little dogs would need P+ either. The brilliance of the balanced system is that after an evalution of the dog has taken place, the trainer can gain an understanding of what's required to get the best from the dog. As i stated earlier, Steven Lindsay agrees and sanctifies that a balanced system which teaches the dog where its advanatges lies is the only way. I was hoping to see people come to challenge him on the subject.

Corvus, training should be a positive experience. Who really wants to go through all the punishment process anyway? However, the balanced system is being ignored and leaving behind a limitation on whether or not a dogs life is worth saving. It further strengthens and highlights a BSL issue because some breeds will not be able to live down to the new and regretable standard thats being produced. There are many ways of training that should be explored. I will always agree on this principle however, ignorance through choice is outrageous.

Its a fact that some dogs should be PTS. They should have the right to a second opinion before some unqualified, bias hack decides to play god. In addition, sending the dog for a second opinion to a carbon copy trainer will just mean certain doom for the dog anyway.

I guess if these 'groups' have vowed against the use of positive punishment they get to a point where there is no other option for them, nowhere else to go. Which narrows down the options for the dogs under their care/advice/instruction as well. ETA: Welcome back, HR. Hope you enjoyed your holiday . I think this whole "humane" argument needs to be re-examined! We have lunatic groups who spout human rights for some of the most deranged people on the planet and yet we have people who offer the death penalty rather than put a little work into the dog!!! I have no issue with recommending euthanisa if the dog is mindlessly out of control and dangerous, however some of the PTS cases that have been sent to me are a joke, as are the individuals pushing it! Steven Lindsay hit the nail right on the head when he stated that the only way is a balanced way. Thanks for the welcome back Erny...i wasnt having a holiday..i was working...although it was more like a working holiday lol

seems to be the popular choice with anyone spouting, "humane training methods" for any dogs offering a bit of a challenge.

Great write up Steve. I know Boyd will be pleased when I show him.

Corvus....I'll reveal all in my tell all book :D