Herr Rottweiler

The photo's weren't posted to terrify anyone into not using halti's, i simply put them there as educational reference to show fellow DOLers that all devices have the potential to cause harm. Some people have used them for many years without so much as a blemish on their dog. This is an extreme incident however, it is not an isolated one as I have seen many other examples but I didn't have a camera with me at the time

and this one, (same dog, different angle) These were taken 3 weeks after the incident

Hey i'm not going to argue with you on that one and yes you're right the dog was lucky as the vet pointed out. I finally found the photo of the dog with the injuries to his face from the halti for the list to have a look at.

They have absolute control over PM'ing any of the trainers if they want their expertise

I'll dig the photo out at some stage, scan it and post it for you to have a look at.

Oh I see, and you needed to know how many lessons I had with him and how long I have know him to establish that? Good that you have reached that conclusion. He is a nice man and a damn good trainer. oh Anne you silly ol soss! Being a little bit too sensitive and paranoid I feel! Calm down, have a shot of red and take a deep breath

I know Michael, nice bloke. That's all

Oh i think that's just your wicked slur

So Anne, Do you just do the odd private lesson with Michael or are you training at ECDT?

Of course we can find positive & negative in all equipment. This is just one example I know of for the folks who say that the halti is so much more humane and dogs don't get injured on them because it's a lovely soft piece of cloth The fellow didn't break the dogs neck either, he fracture the vertibre and from his mouth, he claims to have followed the instruction of one of the trainers. He felt that the advice was questionable but he said he did it against his better judgement. I have a picture somewhere that i will dig out of a dog with cuts all over his face from another clients dog who mutilated himself trying to get it off while the instructor stood bye and said, 'he has to learn' Hey I have seen injuries from flat collars so i'm plainy advising people that pain and injury can be atributed to anything. I even watched a class the other day where a dog was rewarded with some food and it momentarily lodged in the dogs throat. An extreme circumstance I know but none the less it resulted in the dog suffering for five minutes while it coughed and gagged.

Nicely said Kelpie -i

Okay now i'm utterly confused Anne you said this in an earlier post; Then you said this; So am I alone here? K9 did you come over from America ;) Maybe it's because of my "chest beating" that i don't understand

I would add that any device has the potential to cause harm to a dog. The Halti or gentle leader is fitted to the dogs face which can be used to pivot the dogs head violently in the wrong direction. If people wish to use these I don't object to them doing so I just like them to be aware of the options and how each of those items work

Hey HR! You suggesting you might expect from a "Ridgy" (eg) person? Hmmm I might be, but you know where I live! ;)

Really? I help people out all the time and no money changes hands. Last week I pulled the car over to help a couple with their dog. The only thing I got out of that was satifaction for being a nice bloke anf 30 minutes late to where I was going. My greatest annoyance, is spending large amounts of time typing out a successful technique that people will try and then come back and say, "it didn't work" where i could spend 15 minutes demonstarting it physically with a 99% strike rate. If that's selfish, then I'll go he! If it looks like i'm trying to hide something or trying to get manipulate DOL's into joining ADT then that's the stupidity of the reader. There are so many books out there that will share the same advice that I will give which people will read and still not be able to get it. Funnily enough, once the same person has a short hands on session, the light comes on.

Anne, I can't quite work you out? Rotty person too! I believe I give quite a bit of my time trying help and answer questions for members on DOL. I just don't see any value in wasting my time and other people's when I have experienced a trend like this many, many times before. I don't assume that people on this list are idiots either.

As you wish and since you said it so nicely ;) . If you are familiar with the Rottweiler forum in America you will probably know who this trainer is. He is highly respected by the knowledgable people on that forum and has written many training articles for them. K9 Force seems to be an exception here in that he is quite willing to share and instruct many of us with training problems. Perhaps that comes from his confidence in his technique. He was very helpful to me in our discussions. Hi Anne, Sounds to me like you're talking about the amazing Adam Katz Anne, I tip my hat to Steve from K9 because I feel that he gives 100% but even I feel that Steve would question why would he waste time again and again trying to explain something that will be lost in translation. Erny, well said. Don't think I could have said it better

Here's the deal Anne. I have been involved with online forums way before most australians had any idea of what the internet was. So much so that I used to speak to Americans because there wasn't any forums in Australia. My point is that I have been going over this same topic for over a decade and a half now and most times when I write it people will say, "I tried your technique but it didn't work". Pretty much the same as when I tried to learn Kung fu from a book and it was completely different when I actually went to a school and was shown. Or the time I made a recipe from a book and it looked nothing like the picture from the book! Eventually I got tired of trying to explain the technique and being insulted by nuffies, so I offered to meet a group at a park to show them a few techniques. "wow!" People exclaimed as they learned to do it themselves! It's not magic! It's not a con to make people join my school but it certainly is about how you hold your lead, how you place your feat, the technique you use to correct and praise the dog and timing. Majority of people pick it up real quick but then again, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink! As for the guys name. Keep it.

Well that is the essence of an excellent trainer! One that will use all the tools in the bag and get's the job done. PM me his name if you don't mind

Herein lies the problem....what is an effective technique?. Why is it no one will explain? An Ah Ah and a pop on the leash is quite effective with some dogs. It worked for all but one of mine. Hi Anne, It's not that I don't want to explain it, it's just that I believe it would be a huge waste of time trying to. It's like asking a baseball coach to explain how to hit a home run. I'm sure he'd say, "meet me in a field and i'll show you". Some things are best demonstrated. A friend told me that a good demonstartion speaks a thousand words. I would say that's being modest. I would say, more like a million. I showed a lady how to properly correct her dog the other day and she said that nobody every showed her how to do it, they just described it to her which is why she never learned it in the beginning.

This is not an insult to you, it's merely a point. You haven't developed an effective technique yet. When you do, you're dog will know that pulling is no longer an option

Ewwww

yes, mad world!

This has been quite a good post K9 to add to your points about neck injury with the halti, a fellow who owned a large malamute was told by a training school to use a halti. He said he was happy with his correction but he was ganged up on and told he had to use one or lose his mebership. He decided that he would give it a go. 2 weeks later he fractured the vertibre in the dogs neck following the instructions of the girl who recommended it to him. The vet cleared him 6 months later to be able to train again. He came and did some private work with me and because of the injury I fitted his dog with a prong collar. The dog and owner are doing very well. Some would say that the man didn't follow the instructors directions. I don't think this is the case as he was clearly intelligent and is an excellent hadler with the dog and did everthing i asked him to do, to the letter. I have no issue with people using halti's, but they are right down on my list for preferred use. No disrespect intended as the following is my opinion, but I feel that trainers who can't effectively use or instruct the usage of a normal correction chains will dive on Halti's as it generally supresses the dogs reckless behaviour whilst the dog is wearing it. The usual comment I get from customers who use halti's is, "he is so well behaved when I walk him on lead now". When I ask them what the dog is like offlead, "oh he's a ratbag". Now in saying this, the argument could come back to the same thing with correction chains, prongs etc. however, I'm basing this on many years of experience, not on pride or opinion. I know that training properly with correction chains, prongs, matingales etc. the results will be better long term. I'm not trying to discredit halti, gentle leader or the like, I do however get somewhat annoyed when people are constantly trying to discredit correction chains, prongs etc. I believe it reveals arrogance and ignorance in a trainer or an organisation when they carry on that only their method is the best for training dogs.

I know that Erny has a contact for some good treat bags. Hopefully she reads this post and reminds me where she found them