asal

Can you please share where you got that data Steve, because I've never found anything concrete to show that crossbreed dogs are on average less healthy than the average purebred. Thanks. i cant vouch for averages, one family at our pony club bought a delightful samoyed x labrador, being a crossbred with hybrid vigour its guaranteed to be healthier than either parent breed, her brother bought a litter mate. That is right? isnt it? by 9 months they both were diagnosed with hip displacia. maybe without hybrid vigor they would have been born without any hip's maybe

The US is not having vets report illness by breed by microchip to the folks who are doing this research. That started here in Australia and in the UK. So they are not going to look at breed club information from the US (at least not for their data bank of EBV), they are going to to look at the data they collect. As I said in the beginning I have been won over to the regulation of breeding side of the argument. I can not see how I can promote all the dogs until I can show they have meet the public's expectations on health and health testing. Just like what you wanted for all cav breeders in OZ. I give up on the fight, we will take the power away from the Cav breeders and let the 'experts' decide what they can do and not do. Normally I prefer, in fact had demanded, that breeders to police themselves and make their own decsions, to keep government out of dog breeding. But it is clear that is only prolonging this issue. We need to get this over with. What ever the results are and what ever breeds we loose. At least there would then be some hope for the breeds that fair well to come out on the other side with the seal of approval. We can then start over with a good reputation, backed up by the most progressive Uni health breeding plans in the world. why, ho why, are you assuming governement can do a better job? they couldnt run telstra, they sold it. they couldnt run the commonwealth bank, they sold it. hullo, they have sold more irrigation rights to more water than is even flowing down the murray? they dont even want to build roads? they let companies build them and put toll ways. every single instance being sold to companies to run and you want them to take over dog breeding??????????????????????????? are you really truely serious? it is government that drafted the law that saw Judy Guard videoed, dogs seized, facing 84 years in jail if the letter of the law they wrote was followed and you have trust and faith in the ;) 's that put the chain of events into gear? remember the rspca's defence is judy broke the law, they had no alternative but to follow the letter of the law, only the fact that a magistrate decided to NOT follow the letter of the same law that she is not jailed for life. do you really think she wouldnt be if the rspca had been able to hand down the sentance? take a look at the letters after the elected politicions, over 3/4 of them have law degree's, yet this dogs breakfast was drafted and passed. remember the old joke that the camel was the result of a committee? and you want the very people who cant even draft and understand the rammifications of what they do? do we want camel's playing in our yards?

seems a similar problem in nsw. down the coast i was visiting my sister in law. she is very upset. some months ago a stray cat hid under their house. they thought it was a feral and requested a cat trap. once caught she discovered it was a somewhat aged but obviously very much loved and well trained cat. extremely affectionate and trained to lead even? the ranger insisted she must surrender the cat, not wait for its owner to come looking. she asked could she apply to adopt it if the owner was not found. it would have cost them nothing at the shelter, it was already desexed and chipped, turned out the owners address was no longer current and whereabouts unknown. did she get to buy and rehome the cat? no they refused to release him to her on the grounds he was too old and killed him. she is still devestated and feels if she hadnt called and asked for the loan of the trap a healthy loving cat would still be alived and she would have loved him till the day he died she said he was amazing. and still misses him even though she only had him for one day. is there a rspca at shoalhaven? dont know who it was who refused to give him a second chance

That's really sad but pretty rare, isnt it (the hysterical reaction I'm talking about)? My fave dog was given to me - her breeder entrusted me to give a little dog a nice home. When the dog got sick the breeder offered to pay the vet bills. I said no because that's my deal when I take on a dog. I think most puppy buyers wouldnt even think to ask the breeder to pay if the dog gets sick or am I totally naive? hey i just gave one as a birthday present for a friends daughter, just before puppy was ready to go to her, she developed a abcess, cause unknown. soo baby stayed here until given the all clear . her mum took puppy to their vet for its next vaccination... so what does their vet suggest? xrays, blood tests u name it, to make sure all infection has gone? i was happy to pay all bills by my vet but shocked when i received the happy phone call of what had just been done without my or my vets knowledge by her vet. she was bubbling with happiness. puppy as the all clear, I ask what did all that cost, over 800 dollars, and yes i sure got a sinking feeling. except happy daughers mum had presented the bill her her horrified hubbie.... it was nice to know my vet had managed to reach the same conclusion at the staggering cost of 35 dollars only 2 weeks before... he is very pleased to know he is still on the ball though.

That's really sad but pretty rare, isnt it (the hysterical reaction I'm talking about)? My fave dog was given to me - her breeder entrusted me to give a little dog a nice home. When the dog got sick the breeder offered to pay the vet bills. I said no because that's my deal when I take on a dog. I think most puppy buyers wouldnt even think to ask the breeder to pay if the dog gets sick or am I totally naive? i would like to think its pretty rare. but its happened to me, and two of my friends in the last 3 years so I dont think they consider it rare now. and terrified of the new mindset now. one no longer breeds, the other has decided once her present ones are retired thats it. me? thinking the same LOL just realised you mean the hysterical reaction of the breeder,, well put yourself in her shoes. expected to pay $3,000 now? when they didnt even pay a cent for the pup in the first place? maybe you have that sort of money in the bank, many dont. when you dont, it does tend to cause stress

A little less hysteria & a bit more education. We have a legal system with checks & balances. Go back a few posts & see that Victoria has a Law Reform Commission (as do other states). Individuals & groups can bring to their attention, problems they perceive/experience as a result of laws in their current form. Stating ad nauseum... the letter of the current Victorian law, re debarking, was followed in JG's case. The RSPCA followed each letter of the law. Which that law requires them to do. (There's no wriggle room written into it, of first priority in intervention being an educative role ...as the much later Qld law allows.) First thing I did, was to go read that Victorian law. And found that was so. Right down to the fact that animals don't have to be distressed or disabled to be seized under the Victorian law. They are described among 'things' that can be taken away for evidence. So there was collective horror to many dog people (including me) in how all this letter of the law actually plays out in reality. A poorly worded law that lumps debarking & tail-docking in together....prohibited. And proceeds to apply the same penalty, in that there's a 2nd offence if the dogs are purebreds which are shown. Totally overlooking the fact that a docked-tail has consequence for conformation when exhibited in the show-ring. But a pitch-lowered (debarked) dog has no consequence for the showring... unless it's expected to sing opera at a volume rate to fill the Myer Music Bowl. And totally missing the point that it's restricted procedures they're dealing with....even tho'. elsewhere. the law indicates the circumstances, processes & procedures under which they can be done. Left hand not realising what the right hand is writing, and confusing people in the process. thanks for going to the trouble to do such a easy to understand explaination. soo i didnt realise it was the letter of the law to film everything in any case now that an inspector has been sent to check on. that will certainly add to costs and didnt some one say every word judy uttered was also recorded?

i sincerly hope you are right. think i lost hope of sanity prevailing anywhere governement and laws are involved upon learning what happend to Judy Guard, and the law is still not even being considered for review. instead concerns dismissed and more listed for adding as i said. i soo so hope you are right

I recall reading one post a little while back where the breeder gave a month's worth of pet insurance to each puppy buyer. That was an interesting idea. A lifetime's liability (and maybe I'm reading Shortstep wrong here) seems inherently flawed given that so many issues are late onset or have unknown causes. yes Petplan is 6 weeks insurance from puppy pickup, dont know if there are others. trouble is breeders take their babies to their vet for their first vaccinations and checks for teeth placement, hearts, eyes, hernias , patellas, testes etc and an all clear puppy is music to your ears. BUT, even the next vet check can be different, yet its the puppy breeder wears the unethical hat if its next check is different, not the vet who the breeder had it checked by, nor the judge to passed an 8 week puppy with perfect teeth placement and two testes, even at 12 weeks and or 18 weeks. ive seen it. everything fine then disaster. adult teeth dont come in scissor bite,. breeders unethical in the case of one pup. two teste at 6 weeks 12 weeks and 18 weeks. six months old and ones dissappeared who do you denigrate... the unethical breeder of course. in the case of patellas, cleared by the vet, parents grandparents and puppy. checked by the new owners vets at second and third vaccination all clear. then 9 or ten months old and oopss one going wobbly.. who's the one thats deliberately sold them a dud? do i really need to tell you? of course that unethical breeder. who cares the mug has relied on the very vets who now point the bone straight at ?????????? yet the vets dont say. sorry i was wrong do they? i have great fun with my dogs, dogs are great. but. its just too risky letting a puppy go to a new home anymore. my friend even gave one away as she had an allergic reaction to her vaccination and feared she may be ill again when the boosters have to be done. so what happened? vaccinations fine. BUT six months down the track and get a phone call. my vets said this pup needs a $3,000 op and as the breeder the bills comming to you, hysterical was she? you bet. told her, you have the right to a second opinion. what does her vet find? puppy weighted more than its 5 year old mum already and had fractured both elbows jumping from a verandah. i was only saying to a friend, most of the ops vets decide to do on puppies these days.. once upon a time a luxating dog luxated all its life without surgery now its just about standard procedure it seems from some i have heard from, and no they gave up breeding. simply couldnt see the point in selling a pup for 1,000 and refunding 3,000 for the ops the vet said to be done. soo i wondered, what about paying the first years insurance, its not like things like that happen very often? to be told...but.. the cost of the policy from the price of the pup wont cover breeding and raising it and the buyers sure wont pay the extra..... sooo wheres the comprimise? im stumped to find a posative think the pearler for me was a once long time friend was given two puppies a year apart . 6 n 7 years old down the track get a phone call... "vets doing luxating ops on both of them today and ive told them to send you the bill... just thought to call you so you know its comming and can be ready with the money" sweet. no the bill didnt arrive, her vet when he got the message from the secretary called her and told her there has been not a thing wrong with these dogs since you got them. what have you done different at home to cause this? turned out they had bought a new bed and the dogs were now jumping three feet to get back to the floor in the morning. never met that vet but i adore him. will or did she ever get another from me? not on your nelly

yes i am getting phone calls asking if a puppy comes with a lifetime health guarantee. so "demanding lifetime liability for every pup breed" is looking like the next step. reality? not where im standing. as i asked one man. can you give your own children a lifetime health guarantee????????????????????? bit rich asking it of a dog, or any other species breeder. reality check folks. there aint a critter born with a use by date on the packaging. maybe down the track its comming. but not in our lifetime, if man hasnt extincted himself first my advice? go buy from the mug who is offering the impossible before they discover they are not dealing with whitegoods yet! am i going to continue breeding dogs? no way, no how. im bailing out before the boat sinks completly.

that i suspect should be first priority dont you think?

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift Hold that thought Asal - its important we look at that in the thread on these issues. hey could you file it somewhere now? i wont be forum checking again for a while as heaps to do. well i wont if i can switch this darned thing off and get cracking

dont know if it might mollify em put this last post on the offending forum " promise to take bat n ball n leave u in peace. may some think is worth working for anyway wonder if anything judy guard says now shes been rolled too will mean she too is now a member of the hysterical group? cheers"

And that's the sort of crap that your average puppy buyer doesnt want to be bogged down by. We dont care. Just sell us a nice puppy and keep all of that infighting to yourselves. Fight amongst yourselves about health testing etc - the average Joe on the street doesnt want to buy into that. We want a puppy and a nice, rational breeder. Nothing else. We dont want your first born child, a lifetime guarantee against a possible health problem, title deeds to your house. Keep it simple. and that is exactly why ive sat on my hands for 30 years, no one wants to know or talk about it. i looked, i saw, i decided which road i would walk. trouble is with the dog world, the ethicals notice, your not walking to their drum nor can stand by and let you go your own way , and to them its the my way or the highway. thats why the stringy incident happened anyway despite keeping my reasons to myself. the dust is still under the carpet

i know for example the apple dome so loved by chi breeders is certainly a lot bigger apple than ever on the original dogs and been increased over the decades along with the molera, and as a result a percentage of puppies never make it to even their first vaccinations. although in that case its never an issue for a puppy buyer because they simply dont survive. but i know id love it gone from the breed so i dont have to see a puppy born with no skull. no molera in the parents is first on my wish list. moderation in all, to me is good, muzzle not too short, dome medium not extreme. trouble is that makes u open to being branded as not breeding to show win and by default......get the drift

my poodle would bite if he thought my brothers were hurting me. why have him PTS? they are the ones who tormented him by hitting me just to enjoy his distress when he thought they were hurting me? actually his protectiveness came in handy when the kids of one of my mums friends came to visit, they would thieve anything not nailed down when at our house. i would put him on his leash at the beginning of the hallway knowing they couldnt get past him without me or mum hearing him go of his head barking at them if they tried to get past him, to enter our rooms (none of our doors had locks) id have an area that all hers when visitors come. be it a room or a pen and lockable. its not as if she needs to be locked up 24/7 normally. whenever they have friends over isnt going to be such a big deal surely? this stuff unless doggies perfect its a "danger" to the world is a bit over the top isnt it?

bit of a worry, wonder if that will be the next new law to come in? banning that? prostituting a fur kid?

maybe i shouldnt have replied, in my heart this is a person who sees what they want to see, not what u say, below is the reply i put, but should i just give up and delet it? may i use the word "cretin" there is a solution. the accountablilty drive is the solution. legislation must be enacted to make the perperatators accountable the victums a place of appeal just like every other law enforment institution. its called democracy, and its dying in its arse because of things like you just said put it to bed? yep. wait till the likes of redhead looks in your direction and your screaming soundlessly for someone,,,,,anyone to intercede in your behalf. until this becomes law you too can end up, guilty without trial as stated by someone on dogzonline. this is how hitler little by little and bit by bit slid the german nation into the nighmare no one wants to believe could happen. democracy died. should we all standy by and let it continue here? the law that ensared Judy guard should never have been passed. You can show a debarked dog. its not illegal if is debarked in vic i born in vic, but this iditic law passed by cretins makes it illegal if it was done anywhere else but victoria that is insanity surely maybe electing politians who dont bother or worry that a law is unjust or unequal isnt the problem of the voting public. maybe like the pope they are infalible and we should accept without question when the greater good is more important than any mere collateral damage that does occur? somehow the guy who served the 12 years for the murder he didnt commit might not feel his collateral damage was for the greater good, n didnt i read somewhere is being compensated to the tune of hundreds if not million compensation? at least the animal legislation prevents any such compensation payouts as unlike the innocent murderer there is no avenue of appeal.

you raised a good point, what really frustrates me is the assumption that for example blue gene alopecia for example = skin allergies, automatically? alopecia means...............hairless every man who has gone bald has..................... alopecia i have had three dogs with blue gene alopecia. none, not one, of them, ever developed any allergies whatsoever. they were long coat dogs with short soft coat along their back and speed stripe down the top of the tail. gee they clip bedlington terriors because nature doesnt get the top short enough, still feathered underneath the tail. they may not be able to be shown, but health wise, fine healty doggies. the stringy incident proved that totaly beyond doubt for example even if it cost me bulk monetary and emotional wise. allergy is a different ball game.

in a attempt to help get the word out i cross posted it to a number of forums i know this reply i think takes the cake. this is the mentality we are up against, dog help us "This issue frustrates the heck out of me... And the solution is what??? Could I suggest personal responsibility? Sandy I know you aren't listening because when you get on your evangelical "trips" you can't comprehend that screaming about the problem is all well and good, but not having a solution means nothing is ever going to change. You continually ignore the fact that if it wasn't for the puppy farms, if it wasn't for irresponsible horse owners starving or neglecting their horses we wouldn't need an RSPCA. It's reason for existence, and its ability to abuse its power WOULDN'T EXIST! Frankly I'm tired of this... move on please. Problems without solutions are just a waste of time & life is too short... It is so negative- how about discussing the positive things going on? Like the way in which the AHSA is dealing with genetic defects? You know... things like SCID & LFS & CA... now these are problems that people have developed or are developing solutions for. These are animal welfare issues too... and it is great that it is the breed sorting out its own problems. Now that IS an issue. Regards," sort of makes me wonder if he even read what you are asking for doesnt it? also many have commented the link to your peitions not opening, http://www.mdba.net.au/index.php?option=co...n&Itemid=58

well done steve. bravo.

someone else made the comparison in a thread, forget which one about little by little before anyone realised democracy was gone. in the case of the rspca, theres precious little democracy, until and unless the petition gets going and succes in the accountability drive, we cant wait and hope for the politicans to figure it out for themselves. they are the cretins that made judys nightmare possible and then reality. surely they are elected to use their brains not take orders from the rspca or explore what it actually means in regard to potential victums like judy? surely. why should a dog born n debarked in vic can be shown no problem yet done elsewhere is a crimal offence? didnt the dual rail system debacle lesson get learned after all?

Well that begs the question - why arent the breeders out there for the breeders. How long do they have to wait before they work out that their CCs are not going to do it for them and do something ? I find this completely ironic. Not that long ago, there were a number of DOLers who wanted to do something for purebreds - promotions at shows, brochures, etc - and it died a death because the majority of breeders on this forum dismissed it as unnecessary. yes i get quite confused as there are a few double standards/mixed messages from breeders No. I see no point in breeders being keen to see a hastily organised 'promotion' of purebreed dogs to go ahead when many good breeders cannot currently fill demand for their pups. And it certainly wouldn't do anything positive to address this topic "How do we counteract the bad press for purebred dogs?" A tent full of people at the Royal show shows self interest, it doesn't counteract bad press. Yes. But who is 'we'? trouble is. every breeder who self grooms emself thinking they are the "ethical" ones dont think they need to do a thing. the world knows they are ethical, they know they are ethical. its only the riff raff puppy farmers giving breeders a bad name, so why should you get out of your comfort zone and work on good press? bit of shame soo and i mean VERY few realise pillary one and you pillary all. far as joe public knows if you breed dogs your a puppy farmer. and so the press is out there and its the bad stuff, and its being passed on by the very people who should be realising the ones they want destroyed are a MINORITY yet they are spreading the paint and its sticking to all. yes there does need to be good PR done. but knowing how the papers like to get a good story and the truth isnt on the radar. i well remember Wynn Eason working her heart out for publicity for the Cavy Club and pedigree Cavies, (guinea pigs for you not in the lingo know) they had a field day poking fun at her and conning her into putting em into custumes , flower pots and all manner of stuipid poses, but Wyn gladly put up with the snide cracks and implied lunacy on the grounds that any publicity for the fancy Cavies is good publicity. how many have her fortitude is the problem. i know one name springs to mind if he were ever interested, and thats Dr Harry's brother, now that guy is a wag. met him years ago and he had me in stitches. yep hes the hansome one, he told me so, so i can take it on good account cant I?

Discrimination is pretty rife throughout our various Victorian dog laws. Eg. Dog #1 in Public Place - Microchipped and Council Reg'd. Not actually wearing Council Rego Tag on collar. Ka Ching! $240.00 Fine to that dog owner, thank you very much. Dog #2 in Public Place - Microchipped and Council Reg'd. Not actually wearing Council Rego Tag on collar. But has been shown at Dogs Victoria Sanctioned event in last 12 months. That's ok then. No fine to that dog owner. Off Topic I know (sorry Steve) but it reveals even more of the stupidity, futility and discrimination created by our ill thought out laws. And this one did NOT go through without mention. There were objections. But the Labor Govt pushed it through regardless. And ashamedly, the Liberal/National Parties asserted the laws were flawed but in the same breath and sentence announced to Parliament they would not oppose them. So we have a Government creating stupid, cruddy and faulty laws and we have a Coalition knowing they are stupid, cruddy and faulty laws but giving them a green light anyway. God help us . probably how hitler got his through and the jews into ghettos then the concentration camps...little by little and bit by bit........... scary isnt it

the point being, age box? ticked. shows dogs. ticked. attack mode activated. no they arent out the eliminate show breeders? course not n of course if they had been debarked in vic, she would still be happy and maybe her rehomed one still alive. have my doubts about how much they like dogs that vet who launced the attack

yep, cant reveal my source but seems it was linked to the poxy and special meeting to turf someone mentioned in previous posts fiasco. within hours of losing the shove to eliminate the director failing , the resignations arrived. who thinks is just coincidence? not this liddle black duck i remember when mrs furber won her case there were some runners then too. aint politics interesting, be it state, federal and now we discover our own dear canine registeries?