asal

I just love it when something like this turns up in someones purebred breeders litter. I can just about guarantee the owner of the bitch will say it must have come from the sire. The owner of the sire will say it has come from the bitch. both owners are posative their darling is the victum in this AND anyone that hears of it will say,,,,,,INBREEDING did it... such fun. oddly enough we dont hear about this happening in x bred litters. maybe because its not encouraged for someone whelping a x bred litter to talk about on purebred forums. thanks for posting. although I have related previously the three samoyed x Labradors all with hip displacia that a friends family bought egged on by the garden gnome convincing them that designer is the only way to go if its a sound puppy you want. If you are wondering, yes i have a very warped sense of humour. all the finger pointing that goes on when mother nature decides to pop up disasters and no one looks at the fact that every conception is a huge genetic gamble along with the building blocks can get mixed up in the process and absorb or abort, many conceptions never make it through to birth. even.

I think you could bet your bippy on that one.

of course not...only unethical breeders have problems like that dont they? actually i only now finished reading this page... certainly food for thought re breeds and closed stud books. Very interesting reading, enjoy http://www.akhalteke.info/genetic-de...s-1-70-en.html haven’t checked out the rest of the site yet. Gee that herda is horrible..their skin comes off???????? "Omertà - or the Conspiracy of Silence The expression "conspiracy of silence" relates to a condition or matter which is known to exist, but by tacit communal unspoken consensus is not talked about or acknowledged. Conditions considered shameful or disadvantageous by society or a certain group of people result in avoidance of recognition of some problem in order to officially bury or hide it and thus prevent accusations, investigations or liability. A conspiracy of silence in some field has effects at many levels: those who are directly suffering, or causing others to suffer, perpetuate their cycle of harm and suffering, those who have suffered have their suffering extended by being having their condition ignored or minimized, and are not considered seriously or redressed appropriately, lessons that might be learned for the future are not learned, conditions are exacerbated or even this way allowed to become entrenched in the first place. Conspiracy of silence is a well-known and much executed behaviour among many if not most modern breeders. Unlike breeders of former times, who had to present animals well able to perform and had no problem with destroying those individuals which were showing faults or defects, especially as their livelihood usually depended on their good name in this respect, many if not most modern breeders are more or less hobbyists or - if themselves professionals - selling mainly to hobbyists. Unless they are selling directly to the meat market that is. These hobby breeders usually feel that the name of their breeding is riding on the health state of their animals, or indeed often considerable amounts of money invested are riding on the trust customers and fellow breeders place in them or they do not wish to start over rsp. are unable to buy new breeding stock. In view of the fact that since roughly 100 to 150 years ago studbooks of most pet breeds are closed as a rule and in view of the advent of pure showbreeding also among many if not most pet animal species, decisive and relentless culling has become more necessary than ever. As can be seen in nearly every pet breed which deviated from breeding for practical work, the assault (on genetic and general health) of inbreeding, genetic load, popular sire syndrome and omertà has led to genetic diseases cropping up and spreading through the genepools, as well as a general loss of health values. While horse breeds are not affected as fastly as small pet breeds due their larger generation span, they most certainly are not immune to this mechanism. Quarterhorses with HYPP, HERDA or EPSM, Arabians with LFS, SCID or CA, or Friesians with hydrocephalus or dwarfism, these are just a few examples for genetic diseases spreading like wildfire through either closed genepools or genepools bred heavily for show and perusing largely popular sires to do that. In all of these cases, in every one of them, the conspiracy of silence has seen to it, that the silence of breeders and owners alike allowed the initially but few cases of grave genetical diseases to spread throughout the whole breed, in some cases to the extent that so many individuals are carriers that culling becomes impossible. Only when so many animals are touched by the relevant problem, that at one or other point affected horses get sold to people unwilling to keep silent about it, a grudging acceptance takes place. Rescue measures at that stage then come much too late and the usual testing frenzy is more often than not just windowdressing. An additional problem is that in small, closed genepools even with testing there soon comes a point when the genepool consists of so many carriers that finding good, fitting breeding pairs is a major difficulty. The longer a disease is not talked about and not taken into calculation, the sooner that state will be achieved. E.g. among Friesians this already has resulted in semi-opening of the before firmly closed studbook and strict rules as to lower inbreeding coefficients. This, one needs to say it clearly, is a breed with way more than 10,000 breeding individuals worldwide and still it was discovered to not be sufficient to cull within the closed genepool only. The situation for the Akhal Teke with its much, much lower amount of breeding animals, may quickly become much more serious. Already today the genetic diversity of the breed is insanely low, an AVK of 30-50% (instead of at least 85%) in modern horses should ring any breeder's alarm bells long and hard. Next comes the fact that we already know that several of the extremely popular sires were or must have been carriers of the lethal recessive "Hairless Foal Syndrome". Such horses as 943 Arslan, 736 Keymir or 1054 Gilkuyruk, cases leading back to the immensely influental 448 Kir Sakar, 44 Bek Nasar Dor or 244 Toporbay, can be found by now in every single horse pedigree. That general genetic load and inbreeding depression also is by now taking its toll, should not be negated either, with a major lowering of the average life expectancy of the more recently born horses and the cropping up of such potentially polygenetic diseases as Wobbler Syndrome, Kissing Spine, ringbone, allergies, DLSD or OCD. There is but one way to deal with this for buyers, especially when on the brink of acquiring very expensive horses: • have the horse thoroughly checked by a vet, not the stable vet of the breeder, choose your own vet and make absolutely sure that he is not connected to the breeder! • tell this vet about the potential problems he needs to carefully check up on: Kissing Spine, Wobbler Syndrome, OCD, DSLD, skeletal problems related to early work and overfeeding/pushing of foals • if an independant vet cannot be engaged on place, make the sale and payment of the horse dependant on a thorough check-up done by your own stable vet. Arrange escrow of the payment with a trustworthy firm until the health of the horse has been cleared to your satisfaction. • ask the breeder about such ancestors in the pedigree which may be or have been carriers of the Hairless Foal Syndrome and demand an evaluation by the studbook management prior to the sale. Have this evaluation checked by an independant geneticist! • ask for a calculation of ancestor loss and inbreeding of your horse and if the intention is breeding, have the potential partners of it evaluated for pairing and the values possible foals will achieve. • do not take the simple word of a breeder as being fact. The Akhal Teke may be a rare breed, it however is not different from any other animal species. If claims are made as to potential performance and abilities, ask for direct proof of what the direct ancestors of that horse actually and provenly achieved in those fields. The most important thing to remember is the age-old saying: CAVEAT EMPTOR! As the buyer, you are the one who has to beware. Hopefully critical customers of these horses will eventually force breeders to see the sense in breeding for healthy workable horses, in becoming aware and open about the genetical problems the breed is facing and in using modern methods and knowledge where they can help avoid or combat genetic diseases and genetic load." the really interesting thing about this article is the comments re the closing of stud books being a part of the problem. Thus the problem now will be even worse since most horse registeries mandatory dna has been brought in, this was done because it was known that "some" breeders were introducing "outside" blood, but how to stop them without "everyone else finding out and devaluing the breed" now of course that cannot happen anymore. wonder if it was such a great idea after all? my husband pointed out an interesting fact we seem to be overlooking. the cane toad in australia has a completly closed studbook. apparently the billions of the buggers now inhabiting this country are descended from less than 128 original cane toads. re rabbits "The current infestation appears to have originated with the release of 12 wild rabbits by Thomas Austin on his property, Barwon Park, near Winchelsea, Victoria, in October 1859 for hunting purposes." how many actually were released is pure speculation but considering the stud book was certainly closed there are billions of them now. the australian possum was released in new zealand. again only a few were imported, there are now millions of them all descended from a closed stud book. as for the deer in new zealand...again millions of them from a very small importation. again a closed stud book? something does not make sense here? any idea's? looks to me like mother natures playing ducks and drakes with us all right.

i prefer the barker to the attacker. decades ago we were given a 24/7 barker, nothing worked so gave him to a car yard in an industrial area. they never had a break in over the 10 + years he was on patrol. he was one big dog and looked agressive. little did they know only the volume would have done the damage. one of my ACD's was a silent and used to worry me, as she would dive out of sight and only come out and stare them down when they knocked on the door. always worried what if , while i was out. found out one day. had come home acros the paddock and she didnt know i was home. a gent was knocking on the back door as i came in the front. before i could call out or get to the door i could see her through the window she came out stared at him and he made a run for his car. she went in slow motion after him. giving him time to make it to his car, then she went into high speed. hit the door with her paws doubling its speed in slamming shut and began barking and growling at the window. at least i now knew she wouldnt bite just for the sake of getting someone. although scaring the daylights out of a +70 wasnt a good idea either.

sad how shabbily both she and her dogs have been treated... how disgusting to remove the colour from the standard especially since it had been there 100 years. but then it is pretty typical of the fanitics that seem to think they and their dogs are more special than others. n as she notes has reduced the gene pool in the process.

Because it's a well-known fact that cows can't breathe through their mouths. The point of baiting wasn't to kill the bull by suffocation, the pinning of the nose was to bring the bull down, where it is less capable of defending itself by kicking or crushing the dogs. And as someone already pointed out, that was bulldogs anyway. You'd think they'd check statements made by "experts" and edit them from the story if the "expert" turned out to be a mouth-breathing moron. Kind of makes me wonder why you never hear bulldogs being accused of attacks.. :rofl: O my ... well for starters maybe its because their legs are too short to reach past anyones ankles unless they fell first. then because if they are going to it will be a lick em to death experience????????

Yet this breeder would most definately be branded unethical n puppy farmer here anyway. http://whitedobermanpuppies.com/index.html

spotted this on a puppy website. agree with the owner of the site. definately required reading. When I was a puppy, I entertained you with my antics and made you laugh. You called me your child and despite a number of chewed shoes and a couple of murdered throw pillows, I became your best friend. Whenever I was "bad," you'd shake your finger at me and ask "How could you?" - but then you'd relent and roll me over for a belly rub. My house training took a little longer than expected, because you were terribly busy, but we worked on that together. I remember those nights of nuzzling you in bed, listening to your confidences and secret dreams, and I believed that life could not be any more perfect. We went for long walks and runs in the park, car rides, stops for ice cream (I only got the cone because "ice cream is bad for dogs," you said), and I took long naps in the sun waiting for you to come home at the end of the day. Gradually, you began spending more time at work and on your career, and more time searching for a human mate. I waited for you patiently, comforted you through heartbreaks and disappointments, never chided you about bad decisions, and romped with glee at your homecomings, and when you fell in love. She, now your wife, is not a "dog person" - still I welcomed her into our home, tried to show her affection, and obeyed her. I was happy because you were happy. Then the human babies came along and I shared your excitement. I was fascinated by their pinkness, how they smelled, and I wanted to mother them, too. Only she and you worried that I might hurt them, and I spent most of my time banished to another room, or to a dog crate. Oh, how I wanted to love them, but I became a "prisoner of love." As they began to grow, I became their friend. They clung to my fur and pulled themselves up on wobbly legs, poked fingers in my eyes, investigated my ears and gave me kisses on my nose. I loved everything about them, especially their touch - because your touch was now so infrequent - and I would have defended them with my life if need be. I would sneak into their beds and listen to their worries and secret dreams. Together we waited for the sound of your car in the driveway. There had been a time, when others asked you if you had a dog, that you produced a photo of me from your wallet and told them stories about me. These past few years, you just answered "yes" and changed the subject. I had gone from being your dog to "just a dog," and you resented every expenditure on my behalf. Now you have a new career opportunity in another city and you and they will be moving to an apartment that does not allow pets. You've made the right decision for your "family," but there was a time when I was your only family. I was excited about the car ride until we arrived at the animal shelter. It smelled of dogs and cats, of fear, of hopelessness. You filled out the paperwork and said "I know you will find a good home for her." They shrugged and gave you a pained look. They understand the realities facing a middle-aged dog or cat, even one with "papers." You had to pry your son's fingers loose from my collar as he screamed "No, Daddy! Please don't let them take my dog!" And I worried for him and what lessons you had just taught him about friendship and loyalty, about love and responsibility, and about respect for all life. You gave me a goodbye pat on the head, avoided my eyes, and politely refused to take my collar and leash with you. You had a deadline to meet and now I have one, too. After you left, the two nice ladies said you probably knew about your upcoming move months ago and made no attempt to find me another good home. They shook their heads and asked "How could you?" They are as attentive to us here in the shelter as their busy schedules allow. They feed us, of course, but I lost my appetite days ago. At first, whenever anyone passed my pen, I rushed to the front, hoping it was you - that you had changed your mind - that this was all a bad dream...or I hoped it would at least be someone who cared, anyone who might save me. When I realized I could not compete with the frolicking for attention of happy puppies, oblivious to their own fate, I retreated to a far corner and waited. I heard her footsteps as she came for me at the end of the day and I padded along the aisle after her to a separate room. A blissfully quiet room. She placed me on the table, rubbed my ears and told me not to worry. My heart pounded in anticipation of what was to come, but there was also a sense of relief. The prisoner of love had run out of days. As is my nature, I was more concerned about her. The burden which she bears weighs heavily on her and I know that, the same way I knew your every mood. She gently placed a tourniquet around my foreleg as a tear ran down her cheek. I licked her hand in the same way I used to comfort you so many years ago. She expertly slid the hypodermic needle into my vein. As I felt the sting and the cool liquid coursing through my body, I lay down sleepily, looked into her kind eyes and murmured "How could you?" Perhaps because she understood my dog speak, she said "I'm so sorry." She hugged me and hurriedly explained it was her job to make sure I went to a better place, where I wouldn't be ignored or abused or abandoned, or have to friend for myself - a place of love and light so very different from this earthly place. With my last bit of energy, I tried to convey to her with a thump of my tail that my "How could you?" was not meant for her. It was you, My Beloved Master, I was thinking of. I will think of you and wait for you forever. If you are not crying now you can not have one of our pups! Never take one of our pups to a shelter or rescue! Bring them back to us, we will care for them and find them new homes... They are our babies and we will never abandon them!

my aunt used to breed bull terriorists, LOL. yep scary dogs all right, help the burgler carry out the furniture that lot.

since the topic is roos, i dont think your thoughts are too OT. I dont understand how that roo with the broken neck was kept alive. thats no quality of life for him. ooo if you want a good laugh, (yes off topic) go to the dairy display at any show and what the reactions and whats said by the kids seeing a cow milked for the first time... particuly if offered some of the milk to taste..... absolutely amazing how many didnt know and as one said "grossed out"

having a friend who took up roo harvesting/roo shooter. went out with them for a week. ye gads. had nightmares for years. every shot landed just behind n slightly below the ear. clean kill every time. n im talking hundreds. only once did they accidently hit one with a joey in the pouch and it was tiny. and put down immediatly. the realisation what these men could do if they went nutters like the strathfield massacre scared me witless. as for why do they cull. most of the stations we went through there were more roos per paddock than sheep. no wonder the farmers are having it tough, in the droughts its even worse. plant crops for your stock and its a sea of roos every night. those who think the eastern grey or the big fellas are endangered need a trip out coonamable way. to me i felt pretty sorry for the farmers. they supply the feed and water, pay the rates and the roo shooters harvest a crop on their land and pocket the proceeds... nice job if you have the talent and it sure is a talent. i couldnt shoot that straight night after night like that. also. they never took small ones.. always the biggest...so considering the majorty of a mob are mid age and younger there wasnt any culling of the females unless they were really big ones . no no reduction in next generation. so little relief for the farmer long term anyway.

interesting he says dogs dont pass it on? not what the family who were pressured into putting their kelpie down dont need to find out after the fact

I know how disappointed when a old time breeder sold me a "brood bitch" 12 months old knowing she had grade 4 luxating patella. being a novice i didnt have a clue what i was looking at, but sure learned fast. if there were photos of the different grades walking, newbies would know on the spot what they were looking at. who knows, maybe even that old breeder didnt realise what it was. my vet sure did.

if breeders got off their collective butts and began addressing reducing the incidence of breathing , walking, u name it problems that puppy buyers find in their pets...... surely a breed that needs constant vet care needs reevaluating by the breeders long before a doco like "pedigree dogs exposed " ever got the chance to be made? its been a long time comming. now the pidgeons have come home to roost and there is more butt covering than proacting.. pity

now you are on the mark. everyone and anyone can become interested in becoming a registered breeder. just as there are billions of people now on this planet there are equally billions with very different ideas. the big mistake members of the canine bodies made was decide to begin witchhunts for "backyard/puppy farmers" among the registered breeder ranks. instead of witchhunts in which as usual no one can even agree on what that actually constitutes. why couldnt it intead be an education program.. on the lines of.. What are you looking for in a Pedigreed puppy. educate puppy buyers what to look for! bright eyes, clean coat, health checked parents etc etc learn the breeds strong points and the problem points. do you mind if your puppy's parents have 3 hernia's as long as they are australian champions.? do you mind if the parents never saw a show but look lovely AND dont have hernia's? the list can get pretty long but isnt educating a buyer what to look for themselves going to help? always ask can you return the pup if your vet finds something not right? if the answer is no, keep looking. ... does mum and dad walk normally, do their eyes look normal? what does their mouth look like? if they look odd then the puppys could too. surely this would sort out things far better and less damage to the membership than witch hunting? i asked this question a very looooooong time ago and no one seems to be learning much and look where its got them. running scared because now all registered breeders risk being branded...just like they were warned in the first place. told u so has a nice ring to it.

There is a heck of a lot of confusion. ive friends who have told me they have bought a "registered" dog or puppy. when they show me the "registration" its their microchip papers for council registration????? so to many people "registered" is assumed to mean pedigree but they have no idea what they are supposed to receive for that. In these cases all they have is a lifetime registration with the council one word can sure have a lot of different meanings cant it?

such happy news, now to get him to fess up as to where hes been and whats hes been up too.

They are still dogs right? Dogs are living animals and as such may have flaws, quirks, failings. There are no perfect living things. maybe im getting it wrong, but seems the infernece is registered breeders are supposed to have perfect ones? with no realisation that all animals have their own personality regardless of who bred them or raised them . well remember a litter of 9 and one black and tan girl steadfastly stayed in the bed they were raised refusing to leave even to try food as they grew older. she was a loner no matter how much attention was paid to her, then at 2 years after her owner had began to despair all she ever wanted to do was watch the world go by, began to interact with the other dogs and the family. by 3 she was happlily part of the group. but as a puppy, she was a worry.

so right, my uncle had a pet male raised when his mum was hit by a car, living in the outback, eg station out of Inverell, there was no way he could be stopped from returning to the homestead but he was very docile so he was allowed to stay, and came and went over the years with no problems. except one day a drunken shearer decided to box him and hit him so hard blood came from his nose and one ear. he shook his head, leaped forward, grabbed the shearer round the torso and in one stoke disembowled him. the idiot died and the roo had to be shot for everyones safety. incredibly sad for all concerned. just watch a video of a roo fight and realise never let a roo grab you or grab at you. they are very good at defence, deadly defence. never take a roo for granted.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc. They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing. They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed. They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge. Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not. Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog :thumbsup: "Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog" I remember being told something along those lines once, when i queried how could a dog well actually two dogs become australian champions with three hernia's in another case again two dogs, was looking after them for friends on holiday and my 7 yr old visitor asked whats wrong with them. as i was going to the vet for one of mine i took the pair just to make sure they were ok, i had noticed they moved funny myself. grade 4 patella was the answer. if a 7 yr old child could see something was not normal. i asked how could they win 100 challenge points? to be told by a judge the above. with the additional comment judges are not vets. as for the hernias? where is making champions with these bettering any breed? walked away shaking my head and still wondering

how weird? it double posted

was that the arab stallion who used to do endurance races when he was in his late 20's? Cant recall his name but I think I'd know if it I heard it. fancy remembering that. it was so many years ago. this ones name was Aeneas and he won 5 tom quilty 100 mile buckles without a single vetout. considering the average vetout rate was 60% n more. then went on to win ironwoman races against horses a third his age. with margins of half and 1/4 of a mile Yep, that's the one! Aeneas I believe he was dual registered as an Australian Stock Horse. What is your connection to him? Yes he was. He was my best freind, partner and forever is in my heart. He brought me out on the other side of a very hard peroid of my life. Thank you

was that the arab stallion who used to do endurance races when he was in his late 20's? Cant recall his name but I think I'd know if it I heard it. fancy remembering that. it was so many years ago. this ones name was Aeneas and he won 5 tom quilty 100 mile buckles without a single vetout. considering the average vetout rate was 60% n more. then went on to win ironwoman races against horses a third his age. with margins of half and 1/4 of a mile

awesome reminds me of this photo, the horse is 26 years old

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs??? you would think so, but with a breed whose very standard says, suspicious of strangers, doesnt mean its not socalised, it does mean it doesnt go wagging its tail to strangers... sadly judy guards rehomed one that started judys nighmare didnt like the vet and everything went down hill from there, including said vet convincing the new owner the dog needed to be euthanised.. such a sad outcome on all fronts. when will some like that vet realise a dog does have rights to not like everyone...seems that dog was a very good judge of character in hindsight.