asal

I cant remember a time ive ever referred to a pup as pet quality? how many times have we kept what we at the time thought was the pick of the litter. Remember it IS the breeder who does get first pick. hands up how many have seen others from the same litter turn out better than your "pick" puppy? I ask, do you want a pet? or to show? If a pup has a fault that will put it down the line i say so and show that that fault is. But even then the swan can transform into the duckling and the duckling become the swan. even decided to hedge my bets and get the advice of not one but two international judges. the result? the worst pup in the litter by 9 months perfect mouths can go wrong. glorious bodies can go oooops imperfect mouths can become MAGNIFICANT.. gawky heads legs etc etc can do what? but already desexed so..live n learn nothing is black and white the only ones who havent seen it havent seen their puppies again as adults would be my suspicion.

one thing not mentioned is the large number sold as "pets" which in fact are show quality. There are far more people who are looking for a quality pet. People who want a "show" quality pup (to actually show it) are the minority. The majority are people with or without children who want a beautiful puppy. Others are happy to take a puppy with a fault. Others Want a puppy that looks like it belongs in the show ring. They have no wish to show, or breed but want a puppy as good as they can get. As a breeder, what greater reward than to see a magnificant representaive of their kennel out and about in public. turning heads where ever they go. To be honest. Where do you think your dog will be most noticed? At a show where the majority present are breeders themselves?

I agree Crisovar, personally I find the term 'furbaby' far more offensive than 'pet quality'. personally i find it hilarious. set a litter loose. let the family who "nly want a pet" take their pick, so who do they unerringly point too? your favourite in the entire litter.....every single time. I don't allow buyers to select their own puppy, I always decide which puppy is the most suitable for each family and anyone who comments on my 'furbabies' earns my instant disapproval excellent way to decide on which one the breeder should keep though if any doubts which one instead of eeny, meenie, miny, moe. learnt very quickly.. never leave the one you intend to keep anywhere it can be spotted.

I agree Crisovar, personally I find the term 'furbaby' far more offensive than 'pet quality'. personally i find it hilarious. set a litter loose. let the family who "nly want a pet" take their pick, so who do they unerringly point too? your favourite in the entire litter.....every single time. who says Pets are lesser dogs? I sure dont. in the case of the toy breeds in particular. for goodness sake thats what they are AND WERE bred for IN THE FIRST PLACE. P E T S..... The show scene is a new additon to the landscape in the real time frame sceme of things.

your thinking and reasoning is very good. problem is we are dealing with a group who like to constantly remind us that if you breed to cover costs. let alone ever admit to making a profit? is to be labled a puppy farmer. we all know puppy farmers have to be eliminated. sooooo. bit of a no win situation. unless that mind set can be changed thats just the beginning of a multitude of problems. Had a very interesting afternoon. Met a lovely lady with an adorable teeny Teacup Chihuahua puppy. "Her" breeder only ever uses 1.2 kg and under parents to keep the breed pure. i remember reading that 4 to 6 lbs being the best breeding size. looked it up and it equats to 4 lb = 1.81436 kg to 6 lb = 2.72155 kg. yet as she said. her puppy is perfectly healthy as is her parents and siblings, so why not breed for this size they are so much nicer. how on earth do you answer that kind of question? AND get them to listen? Let alone understand?

had the same thoughts. what a lovely dog. AND WHAT great teeth he still had.

having had to break up two fights some years ago did what i had seen my dad do. two people. one grabbed one dog by the tail and hind leg and the other person did the same. a third hosed the dogs heads to make it hard for them to breathe in all that water and when they let go to get a mouthfull of air they were pulled apart. no one was hurt. not impressed when a few days later the other dog got out again but the fight was successfully parted same way. although in that case was alone but my dog was thankfully on a chain so grabbed the neighbours dog by his tail and held the hose on their faces with the water on hard and it worked to make them let go. again the neighbours dog made no attempt to bite me. once i had them sepearted. well i was ready to shove the hose in his mouth if he was thinking of it. when will people ever get taught you dont grab fighting dogs by the collar or anywhere near the head? as for those who think hitting them round the head is going to sepearate them...sheesh just sends em nuts, wonder if they think its the other dog hurting them and decide to get stuck into them even more? any behavourists know? and even more important.. is there better ways than what my dad did? really this information is certainly not out there is it?

this is serious or could end up so. i would be calling the police whenever you see them wandering. for their own safety and a naked child can certainly get hurt in more ways than one. there was a child in our neighbourhood lost the lot when he decided to urinate through a fence. the dog on the other side bit the lot off. not a wives tale to scare kids. a family member is married to one of the family whose dog did the bite. a horror no one should have to cope with regardless of who is at fault.

oh that poor man.

lol looks like quite a few develop such accuracy. how many remember the gorilla at toronga park zoo?

have to wonder if its going to turn out to be what i saw in a purebred girl her breeder named her Speculation. she was pure white with two eye patches and her body was white with small scattered dots. sort of a cattledog in reverse colouring. instead of the coloured body with white spots/speckles...it was white body with coloured spots/freckles. was told hilton sinclair told the breeder that when they do crop up they tend to throw really good speckled pups if they are bred from, . she was just kept as a pet so the chance to see if his advice was correct never happened. ive only seen 2 in 60 years

Numbering less than forty at the present time, the Spanish Mustangs from the Cerbat Mountain area of northwestern Arizona are some of the purest Spanish descendants in the United States. Documentation obtained from a pioneer rancher family in l966 and published in a national magazine that same year stated the herd was present when the family settled in the area in the l860's and to their knowledge, no outside blood had ever been introduced. The local Indians made no claim upon the horses stating they had "always been there". The more plausible explanation for the Cerbat herd is the prevailing theory of escape or loss from early Spaniards. A study of the history of Arizona and northern Mexico reveals a number of Spanish expeditions ranging into Arizona, New Mexico and California. Loss, escape, theft by Apaches and other means would easily supply the seed stock into the Cerbat area. Indeed, blood testing of these horses shows without a doubt that they carry Spanish "markers". Living in an extremely inhospitable environment at an altitude ranging from 5000 to 7000 feet, this original herd evolved into an exceptionally tough, agile horse with extreme endurance and survival ability. Due to drought conditions in the area in l971, ranchers began eliminating these historic animals to provide more water for the range cattle, not realizing wild horses will dig for water and thereby open up water holes for the cattle as well. A local rancher who apparently regretted the destruction of these last survivors, gave permission to a friend, a veteran Arizona cowboy, to capture the herd and plans for capture progressed slowly. Due to the extreme difficulty in getting vehicles into the area at that time, weeks were spent hauling materials to fence off any remaining waterholes and to build an enclosure around the main source of water. Once the "trap" was constructed, more days were spent in a camouflaged hole waiting for individual horses to come in to water. Once inside, a hand operated trip wire dropped the gate and the horses were trapped. A second corral located off the trap held the horses as they were caught and feed and water was provided. A total of less than 20 animals were eventually captured and brought down to the flatlands where they were branded and issued the required Arizona paperwork. The group was divided among several people with a number of animals going to the state of Washington. Little or no further information is available concerning this group other than it is assumed that they were either dispersed or died. One stallion and three mares were released in an adjacent mountain range some miles distant from the original capture site by the capturing cowboy. The remaining horses were taken to the Phoenix area and later were moved to Colorado with one stallion being placed on the Cayuse Ranch in Oshoto, Wyoming, the home of Robert E. Brislawn, founder of the Spanish Mustang Registry. A year later the small herd that had been turned loose were water trapped and the foals were removed and brought to Phoenix, consisting of a yearling stallion, two yearling fillies and one weanling filly. Three were purchased by Apache Trail Ranch, then residing north of Phoenix. Realizing the rarity of these horses it was decided to preserve the genetics by producing a pure breeding herd of Cerbat animals, however with only one stallion and two mares, the future was not bright, but with the acquisition of two mares from the Colorado group, the genetic variation was improved. Though the original horses were small in size, with only one individual reaching more than l3 2 hands, the succeeding generation leaped in size by more than a hand, substantiating a theory that the small size was caused by a less than hospitable environment in the mountains. Extremely healthy and strong, those animals surviving for the first year of their lives in the mountains remained small. The one weanling filly, due to better feed, grew to almost l5 hands. Subsequent generations have proved the genetic size to be from l4 2 to l5 hands. Due to the extreme roughness of the terrain from which this group came, the fact that they are documented prior to the settling of the area by white settlers over l30 years ago and the fact that the Indians made no claim upon them, coupled with the extremely heavy Spanish influx into the Arizona area for hundreds of years, it is highly probable the Cerbat herd is one of the purest groups of feral Spanish descended horses in existence. Additional evidence gathered by genetic blood testing by the University of Kentucky proves them to be of Spanish descent. Though the blood testing shows them to be heavily inbred and from a "closed" herd situation, like many wild animals in similar situations, apparently all defective genetic material has been bred out, i.e., any animals possessing abnormal or imperfect genes were culled naturally, leaving only those with superior qualities designed for survival to reproduce. Only the size was decreased due to reduced food supply. Further evidence of the "Spanish connection" is the fact that a number of these Cerbat horses are laterally gaited, doing a very credible "paso" gait though without the extreme action of its cousins, the Paso breeds, which is not at all surprising as they carry genes similar to the Peruvian Paso breed indicating a common ancestor. In l990 surprising news arrived - a very small group of horses believed to be descended from the handful left in l971 were found in the same area. A group of eight was water trapped and blood samples taken and sent to the University of Kentucky for comparison with those taken from the horses captured in l971. Though even more inbred they did indeed match up with the earlier group. It is probable that this new group had no more than five ancestors and no less than three according to the blood tests. If so, this would make them extremely inbred but again, disproving all the detrimental effects commonly associated with inbreeding, the new Cerbats were healthy, strong and actually a bit larger than the original group. Lateral gaits are evident in the newer horses and though undeniably related to the older group, the addition of the new ones to the breeding program was a welcome asset. Disposition of the Cerbats is outstanding, quick to learn, intelligent and willing, with a penchant for association with humans. Due perhaps to their centuries of mountain living, or simply perhaps to their genetic inheritance, their legs and feet are excellent with well boned legs and thick walled feet. Backs are short, hindquarters are sturdy, deep and powerful. Chestnuts on forelegs are small and smooth, extremely small or non-existent on the rear legs. Ergots are tiny or non-existent. The ears are small and curved, eyes are rather high set. A definite relationship to the old type Andalusian can be seen in the facial profile. The chest is rather narrow compared to American breeds and well "veed" up. Shoulders are laid back and heart girth is deep. A product of their Spanish inheritance plus their more recent feral environment, they are a tough, hardy, extremely durable animal. One interesting fact is that resting pulse rate in all individuals tested is rather low - in the low 30's which should be of value in any type of endurance competition. There is not much to choose from in color as bay and chestnut seems to be a consistent part of their genetic inheritance, however at least 50% of these bays and chestnuts are also roans. A rather odd occurrence in the Cerbats is that roan foals are born roan, whereas in many other breeds roan foals show their roan coats only after the shedding of the foal coat. They are extremely consistent in reproduction, not surprising considering they are so closely akin in genetic makeup. The mares have no difficulty in foaling the origiinal Cerbat mares produced well into their 20's. Foals are strong at birth and usually on their feet and nursing within l5 to 20 minutes, a necessity when living in predator country for generations. Though still small in numbers in the pure state, the herd has been preserved and with future expected growth, a small number has been made available to a select few that wish to continue to breed them. Half and five-eighth Cerbat horses have done well in competitive and endurance rides as well as in three day eventing. The future looks bright for a herd doomed to extinction thirty years ago. Yet what is the cause of ALL evil in animals bred by humans odd eh? this is the website i found it on and there is pages of photos of them http://www.angelfire.com/az/xochitl/Cerbats.html

exactly. my neighbour phoned me and asked me to put a goats head her golden had brought home into the bin for her. her excuse it grossed her out so much she couldnt touch it. the second he realised i had it he came running in full attack mode. n he wasnt bluffing it was terrifying to have such a huge dog come at you teeth barred and going for your face. i was lucky the hose and tap was beside me and turned it on full bore and drowned him down. till he backed off and i escaped into the house and stayed till he simmerd down. (He had been around the side of the house when i found the head and I was just dropping the head into the bottom of the bin when he realised i had it and went for me and no time to try and fish it out and throw it to distract him) ONLY THEN did i learn he had attacked her numerous times if she went near his food after she had put it in the bowl. not impressed with either her or her darned dog should add. he eventually died of old age and never attacked again. he was never again had anyone take any food he had or go near him when he was eating and he was fine. they moved to the suburbs from the country and had a fully enclosed yard so he no longer had opportunity for forage for himself.

They certainly are regardless of them being blue or red. It's said they are born white due to the Dalmatian in them. Got to do with the Merling Geen Same as the dalmation Unfortunatly also caries a deafness gene merle carries more than a deafness gene. a merle to a merle gives 25 percent pups with vistigal or no eyes. soo i rather doubt the cattle dogs have the "merle" gene. as well anyone who has bred a merle collie or shetland sheepdog can tell you they are not born white so i susect there is a quite differnt gene in involved

although the mongrels did keep them locked up after hubby arrived with guns, so the poor doggies didnt get let loose for their "run" anymore now they knew guns were waiting for em to leave their property forgot to add, our favourite memory is while these owners are telling us their darlings wouldnt hurt a fly, what comes up the driveway with the entire shoulder of one of our sheep in its mouth? flanked by the other two killers? Owner opens the gate, ushers doggies in, complete with afters, and looks hubby in the eye while denies their didum's had anything to do with the slaughter .

hey dont beat yourself up. i saw two magnificant dogs chasing our cattle one day. all cattle ok, the dogs came when i called and i took them to the pound and their owners were told they had been found chasing cattle. over a period of 3 months we lost 19 calves and one cow although not killed having most of her hindquarters eaten ment she had to be put down. as for the calves all we found was the bones. never forget finding the semi paralyed partialy eaten cow and her totaly eaten calf my vet was with me and he took one horrified look at the teeth markes on the calves skull and began running for his car.. left me behind with not even a look back. his words as he took off. "run... ive seen those marks before from bullens lions. there must be one out" n he was gone. he also did work for bullens so had seen plenty of partialy eaten bodies in the lion pens, if you dont get it. so i learned he was not the hero type anyway, caught up and at least he was waiting in his car for me all windows up. then the sheep began dissappearing, one day hubby was stock checking but no gun with him and spotted two great danes and a basset. since two of them were the dogs i had so foolishly taken to the pound instead of shooting as hubby and the vet had suggested at the time. he thought he would call them and catch them. the black bitch that had not been with the other two before took one look and attacked him, he had to climb a tree until they lost interest and left. so, shoot em when you can. we losts thousands in stock and the owners refused to admit their darlings would hurt a fly

I don't recommend visiting the dog until it's hard a chance to settle, say over 2 months. Otherwise you may confuse and/or distress the dog. i didnt say do it. i said ask for the option... knowing you can is very helpful mentally notice my friend did not. she was told when they were going to a show and she attended the show.. n that was some 12 months later.. but the "knowing' she was welcome made so much difference to her mentally. understand? although come to think of it, her new owner did phone her once or twice and give her an update and think about 3 months after getting her sent her a photo. it means so much to her. think little things like that might help pupperup cope? surely thats not asking a lot is it? sometimes, well oftentimes, i get the feeling theres an uncomfortable lot here that hate their own species.. face it her dog will probably be thrilled with his new home.. most dogs live for the moment and dont grieve for their owner,, thats why the likes of greyfrier's bobby was such an amazing dog. but the sympathy for the person just doesnt exist for so many, sink the knife in seems to gve em some sort of high, thats how it comes across at times. people have feelings too , surpise, suprise folks can anyone give me an example of a dog that decided to kill itself? think it was three farmers did in one week alone after losing yet another crop this time to floods instead of the previous 10 years of drought. yes, tragic they were so down they couldnt see the good left. deperession does that to people. i have seen depressed dogs, worked with one for a year before he volantiarly hopped onto my lap. but he didnt neck himself he finally became a happy camper

i think you might feel a lot better if you ask can you have the option of being able to visit? i know a friend had to rehome a very much loved horse and she was beside herself with grief, we made that suggestion and the KNOWING she can visit her has made such a difference to her. she actually has never gone to her home yet, but did go to a show she was attending and has heaps of photos and is thrilled to see how happy her baby is with her new owner. has really relieved her worries.

after this last attack i fear this thing could kill if i turned up and no one was home. soo no more going no matter how much my friend keeps saying hes fine. am i really just being a coward like they think? have to admit i was so terrified as my hip dissappered into his mouth almost grabbed a shovel so close to try and chase him off. but thought if i act agressive maybe ill have him really attack n hes taller than me

i notice it says underdog traing and behaviour? nice to see you know behaviour, ive only observed not been taught as i gather you have. what on earth is a maremma thinking when it comes at you on its hindlegs and grabs your shoulder? then drops and takes your just about entire hip in ints jaws? didnt break the skin, but holes in the clothes though. im scared witless of it now and ive known the darn thing since a pup. my friend keeps saying hes just playing? the bark doesnt sound like playing to me, i think hes dying to sink em in and working up the courage. heard hes done it to someone else now as well. never seen any posts on marammas biting people?

I totally agree. It doesn't matter who let the dogs out. Unless the owners can guarantee that they will be enclosed 27/4 in the house or in a fully enclosed dog-run and only allowed off the property wearing muzzles, they should be PTS. With this one incident they have proven that they are a danger to other animals and are not suited to an urban environment (and indeed a rural environment where a neighbour would be entitled to shoot the dogs if they threatened livestock). I think every situation has to be dealt with individually and sadly there is no clear cut way to address these incidents. The owners may well be very responsible people and to have their dogs let out by someone else is NOT their fault. We live in an area of lots of roaming dogs and dingoes, and if many of the dogs in the area were let out of their yards could pose a threat to other dogs, especially if their is 2 of them. My friends dogs were let out by school kids walking by!! "Such acts of aggression" are sadly what all dogs are capable of even nice family pets, when people understand that every one will be safer. A very sad situation. If you have a large dog with a high prey drive, then they need to be kept securely - that means high, high fences with locked gates. If that isn't enough, then secure dog runs with concrete floors etc. If school kids could let your friends dogs out, then they weren't very secure in the first place. I own a dog with issues. That means that I need to be 10000% more responsible than the average dog owner. All walks need to be planned ahead. My dog gets securely crated before anyone comes into the house. I have a two-gated front door so she can't accidentally get out etc. And she is a mini schnauzer who couldn't do much damage if she tried. If people want to own dogs that can do a lot of damage then the need to step up to the plate. People seem to think that PTS is all about fault and punishment. Sorry to say it but some dogs just aren't cut out to live in suburbia with many people, dogs, cats etc living in close proximity. It isn't always about fault but the safety of the community. A kid could have been hurt if they had been walking their JRT and tried to save it. I agrew Wineterpaws - if an offleash dog ever attacks mine then I will make sure that the owners spend a lot of money and time on lawyers - even though I have a low chance of getting any $ out of it. regardless of how they got out. they are killers. i have had dogs come onto my place and they did not even go near my animals let alone kill, others have killed every chook i had. one of my dogs only survived because being tiny he crawed under a cupboard in our shed and the labrador intent on killing him coudlnt get hold of him although he almost died of shock anyway. it had to climb a 3 foot fence to get to mine. one of mine got into the chook yard the other day and very proudly removed some feathers and brough them to me.. she didnt kill the bird. so dogs dont automatically kill when the opportunaity presents, it is not an automatic response in a loose dog.. others certainly do. ever since i was kid the rules were , once a dog has killed it is a killer. and round where i grew up it meant the bullet.

and the resource guarding began at about 7 months.. he was fine till then.

He may not be a bad breeder at all, but there is a question mark. It is possible to identify resource guarding in pups when they are very young. Was it a well-bred litter? Did the breeder miss the signs of strong resource guarding in the pup and place it with an unsuspecting family? Or was the dog only ever a mild resource guarder, and its behaviour escalated because of family management? Did the dog have a brain tumour? We just don't have the information. And nobody apart from people like us here would probably care to investigate it properly anyway. GUESS WHAT he had to be put down at age 6 with a brain tumur

incidently my resource guarder border collie came from a very famous kennel.. and not one other i saw from there had his behaviour.. so i fail to see how the breeder is the bad guy at all?

What an awful comment, I would never describe any child as a "feral". considering my aunts brother is dead because a group decided to kick him to death when he went to his car to get home... what else would you describe the likes of such visually members anyway of the homo sapien species? my neighbour is only alive because. a) his dad a copper had warned himif he was ever attacked and knocked down stay in a ball and dont let go of your knees if you can. he did so that B) by the time his mates had ran to the nearest cop shop and help arrived he was still alive, he did survive although he was in icu for 3 days. my own brother had to wait 3 days before he knew if he would lose his eyes after a total stranger decided to king hit him at a race meeting. all he knew was a tap on the shoulder, turned. and BANG. never seen the sicko in his life before.. so what would you call these types???????????