asal

This seems a bit OT for this thread? some one suggested a petiton of our own... im suggesting one requesing its about time re the the issue of NO avenue of appeal even after over 12 years of such power was already in place in 1999 and before. that is a very loooong time lag

"as for the "nothing to fear from" "as outlined in the Code of Practice etc" none of the 21 needle insertions or tests conducted were for even one single condition that breeched said Code of practice? so how does such adherance protect in that instance.....NONE whatsoever." every one of which came back with a negative.

Although it might be a very good idea to copy and print this letter. for the next time someone finds a really true case and is told "there is nothing they can do, the law as it stands has their hands tied" this letter clearly states, all the inspector has to do is "decide" n its all over red rover. to quote someone else.

read the above and take careful note. the lack of communication referred to is the fact that the owner was NEVER told the nature of the complaint. until this letter arrived some two years and many letters after the event. when an inspector arrives you have two weeks to fix the problem. you cannot fix something if the inspector will not tell you what it is. but if it is not done in the required 2 weeks they then can seize whatever has not been fixed. as for the "without proper records" the inspector was given the vets name, number and address but chose never to contact the dogs vet before seizure. as for the "nothing to fear from" "as outlined in the Code of Practice etc" none of the 21 needle insertions or tests conducted were for even one single condition that breeched said Code of practice? so how does such adherance protect in that instance.....NONE whatsoever. wheres your petition folks? whose next? as it stands if you try to stop them taking or in Ruth Daltons case try to stop them the police office told to restrain can get a medal for doing his duty in a dangerous situation. no avenue of appeal, no one you can call for a seond opinion...not even the dogs nsw liason office Alan Candlish could find out the nature of the complaint during the two weeks he tried and failed to get an answer.. from where we stook the was no lack of communication on our side. as Mr Amery seems to be suggesting in his letter?

Minister for Agriculture Minister for Land and Water Conservation (99541) Dear Ms H 14 JUN 2001 Thank you for your letter of 30 April 2001 regarding the seizure of your dog ‘Stringy’ by the RSPCA. This whole incident has clearly been distressing for you. However, it would seem that the appearance of your dog breeding establishment and several of your animals attracted the attention of at least one other breeder who was concerned about the reputation of the industry, the conduct of your business and the welfare of some of your dogs. The RSPCA is obliged to investigate genuine complaints regarding animal welfare and to pursue what they believe to be the most reasonable course of action given the circumstances. You indicated that two dogs appeared to be in less than satisfactory condition. Without proper records of your own or your veterinarian, showing that Stringy was under veterinary care, the inspectors could only rely on their own judgement. In this case Inspector Donnelly decided that Stringy’s best interests would be served by a proper veterinary examination and diagnostic work up at the RSPCA shelter. Whilst this whole incident has been aggravated by an unfortunate sequence of events and poor communication on both sides, I see no need for continuing bitterness over this issue. Springy has been returned and has now undergone a proper diagnostic work up, you have not been charged with any offences, and as a gesture of good will the RSPCA has removed kennel charges from your bill I do not feel that the RSPCA has acted outside the law or unreasonably in this matter. If you conduct your business as outlined in the Code of Practice for dog breeding establishments you will have nothing to fear from further visits from RSPCA inspectors. Thanks you for expressing your concerns. Yours sincerely RICHARD AMERY MP MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE MINISTER FOR LAND AND WATER CONSERVATION LEVEL 17 “PARKVIEW” 157 LIVERPOOL STREET SYDNEY NSW 2000 AUSTRALIA PO BOX K220 HAYMARKET 1240 AUSTRALIA TELEPHONE 02 9372 0123 FACSIMILE 02 9372 0199 INTERNET http://www.minister.agric.nsw.gov.auEMAIL-ministers.office@agric.nsw.gov.au

I know I will never feel any degree of safety until the day does arrive when there is an avenue of appeal written into law that such things cannot happen without avenue of appeal . Where is a petition for that? It says on dogzonline animal welfare already have 10,000 signatures to have 500 dollars added to registered breeders if they wish to breed before they can register a litter. Where are the signatures for accountability and appeal avenue re the RSPCA

I don't think it will make any difference how many they get and they have to wait anyway until the review is up if they are going to go via the companion animals act but there is a push nation wide for a licencing system for breeders and for an outside agency to be calling all of the shots. If they try the way they did with the whole anti pet shop thing via someone like clover Moore it could get scary For me its the general push and general anti breeder stuff that seems to be getting way way too much attention and lots of sensationalism and propaganda. Dishonesty, lies are every where .You can have hate pages about a breeder for the most trivial of things but not about a pedophile I don't think breeders should have no rights of what they can do with their own property and no privacy rights and no rights of where they can sell their puppies etc simply because someone is guessing as to what may be causing dogs being PTS . I don't understand how they can think they can introduce fees and regulations that make no sense to small breeders and not advantage commercial breeders - yet they say this is what they are trying to stop. Nothing they do to breeders is going to stop irresponsible owners - its the owners who dump dogs .So its sort of like punishing someone for selling a car if they if they have lots of people deliberately running them into trees How is it you have to be treated as a potential criminal and animal abuser because you happen to want to breed a litter of puppies - this is truly a world gone mad and it saddens me that my kids will never be able to experience the joy of breeding great dogs which will make a difference to the dogs and the people who live with them for generations. We should be able to stand proud of what we do and not have to constantly defend ourselves and our property because now and then someone somewhere mucks it up. funny you should use that turn of phrase, I have always wondered at the weird state of affairs on that very subject, no one would countance giving a pedophile a job in a primary school. yet no one see's the irony that an organisation like "they who must not be named" with such immense power that their inspectors only need to 'decide' an animal should be seized, an organisation that has no avenue of appeal for the owner of the seized, no avenue of appeal to stop the slaughter of was it 40? cows many with calves at foot, as in the Ruth Downey case. or in the case of Ruth Dalton facing wasnt it 80 years except in Ruth's case the magistrate threw it out of court. no one has an avenue of appeal, no one can apply for a stay of execution this place is judge jury and sentencing without out appeal. this is a place that would attract sociopath's like flies to a carcase, the ultimate high the ultimate safe house. its exists because no one has realised (except those that rised the ire of someone to thus learn the hard way) anyone who complains has only let the world know they are tainted,,,this loving group soley exist "to protect the suffering, unable to speak for themselves" to put up your hand and admit the eye had turned on you is to admit you deserved it. again to discover the herd around are also, judge jury and sentancing already done, n stand by as the lion takes down the one "that must have deserved it". there is no place for innocent in this scenario. do you even believe such people would be drawn like a pedophile to a school? to cite one example alone that I saw. Marion Alcorn was promised if she signed her ten arabians over to this organisation, "good homes would be found for them" Since it was less than a week after said signature was given. I was at Mcgraths Hill Saleyards and stood, watched and heard the seizing inspector walk into the sale ring and announce. "NO ONE BUT THE DOGGERS ARE ALLOWED TO BID ON THESE HORSES" He then turned and as he left heard to finish with "and they are all mad" these horses comprised 3 yearling colts, 3 weanling fillies and 4 mares. (have to admit it may have been 3 mares and 4 weanling fillies) all up total 10 arabian mares foals and 3 yearling colts. WHERE in anyones mind here is death at a doggers constitute 'good homes' ESPECIALLY since I and many friends had been phoneing to buy these horses and all told "they were not available for sale yet" I received that reply even after they had been loaded and trucked to the sales. FACT....NOT HERESAY.. since there is no avenue of appeal no one will ever know how or why the decision was made to have them killed instead. according to the court submitted $7,000 feed bill for the 10 weeks they were in custody and the decision to sell them to the doggers I doubt the raised much over 2,000 for the lot, i know the foals went for 60 to 75 each, the yearlings not much more and the mares 200 or thereabouts. yet the callers had been willing to pay 500 to 1,000 each. again i know because i was one of them and one poor chap had already paid for one of the mares seized before he arrived with his float to pick her up. a receipt of sale meant zilch he discovered. who they are still owned by in the society's records he learned was what was ownership proof.

Agree... your quote at the bottom is i notice "A Dog Is For Life!!!" do you realise if every dog is desexed you will only have one for its lifetime? the rate breeders are being tarred and feathered if they breed and sell any with all the hate being thrown out there all the controls to get rid of one but in the process applies to all. you better get used to the idea of a stuffed toy being the only available option in just this lifetime maybe less. the only ones available will be black market like the pitty's are already ummm n come to think of it ive seen dozens of em. i recently bought a kennel on ebay and when i went to pick it up, if their dog was a staffy as i was told im a chimpanzee. why do i think that? never saw a living staffy that could stand on his hind legs and lick my face? n im not a midget, they did not say he was an amstaff, they said he was a staffordshire bull terrier. n no he did not come from a registered breeder, bought from a property out west. anyway im wasting my time and yours. i did hope 20 years ago ( oh my gosh, more like a little over 30 years ago now well its sure gained momentem now) the idiots who started the 'get rid of backyarders' would discover once the witchhunt began soon as the obvious witches (the ones they disliked the most) were disposed of they would discover just like the spanish inquisition that once the ranks began thinning the inquisitors would discover themselves being proclaimed and on the rack too. just like the witch hunters, the inquisitors eventually also discovered your guilty until torture and death proved innocence ... the bright sparks that started those hunts found many of themselves caught up in the killing fields. not much has changed and as usual not much seems to have been learned how quickly history repeats itself. differnt names same result.... elimination.

forget where i spotted it, but its being asked for a petition to be signed for Animal Welfare to lobby for the dogs nsw or is it the government? to impose a yearly fee of $500 to be paid before any breeder of a pedigree dog can register a litter for that year. already on top of membership, prefix, microchipping, genetic testing where applicable and registration fees, be it for Limit or Main register pups. beats the hell out of me how that is going to stop instances like has happend on this thread and frankly i suspect the majority of pet shop puppies are bred this way. once they do succeed in eliminating the pedigree dogs and their breeders theres going to be a very real oops moment when the numbers still simply keep rolling in for any who doubt that day could ever come, on another thread is that 2,000 members did not renew this year leaving australia with something like 4,500 registered breeders for this entire continent? now folks...just how many breeders does that give us per million ? and thats spread over how many totaly different and in danger of extinction breeds now? as was said in the thread wherever it is. "all over red rover" once the gene pool is too small to survive

come to think of it. sad as this case is. how is bringing a 500 dollar payment or all the other stuff being done to 'eliminate' puppy farmers going to impact in any way whatsoever in this case or any like it? ZILCH I suspect.

This. AND THIS! that is so so sad

and everyone has a backyard....well unless living in a high rise? be it a square metre or square miles.

with all the tar and feathers i wear? think they would lynch me

Then theres the Canine Journal or whatever its called now. Has anyone EVER seen a single article about the need to encourage new members? sure you get a free membership renewal if you get three newbies to join. but whats thepoint if every one of them has a limit register pup. 20 years ago it was noted that on the main new breeders only remined members on average 5 years. the reason why in many cases is the discovery that breeding is heartbreaking when things go wrong. the other reason is the discovery how viscious and savage other human members are. as noted previously in just the two instances I have seen and know about. I know many enthusastic members who are so shattered by how nasty the show scene suddenly becomes if they actually start winning. so what about stories and education about manners at shows just for starters. about there are in fact three differnt types of dogs not just two. these the pet not to be bred from type because it is not a good enough specimen of its breed to be used. the BREEDING QUALITY type that is a sound, well conformed example of the breet but not pretty or exagerated enough to catch the eye in the ring but can and quite frequently out produces the so fawned over best of show winners even, let alone champions. the breeding quality dogs have been the backbone of the purebred dog for centauries. now 90 percent of them along with 90 percent of the even show quality are on limit register so no one can use them to continue the breed. I just sold a beauty as a pet yesterday, these puppies are the future of the breed always have been. People with a superb example who hear wherever they go.. WOW where did you get that dog. are the future of all the breeds. One in a hundred might decide to breed from it. If you have already desexed it before it even left your kennel or made them contract to guarantee to do so. where is there the opportunity for that dog to ever contribute to bringing in a new member or breeder? most of these people so love their baby there is no way they will consider getting it another home and buying a breedable one. These people are not like the lady who although a past breeder n exhibitor of a larger breed herself, and knew all the right words to say when conning the breeder of "the smaller easier to maintain breed she had decided on to get back into the scene and still have something to show" when the opportunity arose to pressure the breeder to take the now imperfect toothed dog back did so with the speed of light. What happened to the love for the dog there? The show scenies just love preening their ethical feathers. But a significant number of them dont care a jot about the dog but the trophy collection. It doesnt take even the glassy eyeed newbies long to get their rose petals ripped off. then they are in a pickle. show and be ethical... or walk away and be tarred and feathered. THIS IS THE ISSUE that our directors need to work on, and so far havent the results are now so stark maybe it might get addressed? whether its too late and as one has already said the numbers left are so low now its "all over red rover" wars have left numbers almost extinct and breeders have struggled to revive them. now its the turn of saving even the membership now. recognise breeding quality dogs,,,stop attacking each other and denegrating everyone and anyone you dont agree with. maybe it is impossilbe the human ape is maybe the most savage and destructive species left at the moment? I would like to think that is not so. and get people working together whats the chances?

do you limit register everything that cant become an Aust champion? I know i never kept a pup from my best in show winner. but her never shown sister was the one whose daughters continued the line. so far as i can see those breeders who only use aust champions are severly limiting the gene pool. as for the 8 weeks old pup. the purchaser was an ex breeder of another breed of long standing. wanted an 8 week pup and assured the mug breeder they were perfectly aware how much puppies can change from apparently perfect. mug breeder had already advised the old hand exactly what you say, was told exactly the same by the legion of 'advisors' happy to help select the up and comming puppy the buyer only wanted to be able to show and enjoy the show scene with "fully aware it might turn out to be just pet quality". these are the people who are the show scene. a significant percentage are .............. you add the words, they are a blight on the dog scene newbies and the very dogs they so profess to adore they are what is bringing the pedigree dog down, it never needed anything else the rot started in the 70's and is so widespread now i doubt there is a fungacide strong enough to clean it out before all the fruit is destroyed

in the instance of the now 'failed' STILL WINING OCCASIONAL CHALLENGES now deemed not show quality...it was juges and fellow exhibitors who chose the pup at the same venue 8 months later who decided the breeder was now at fault? so are they fools, hypocrites or even more unethical when they, WHO CHOSE THE PUP, then SO MANY months later brand the breeder? take YOUR pick

spotted on another forum. anyone know if the figures quoted are correct? will histroy record that backyarders hiding from the law will be the saviour of dogs into the future for those who do value having a real one even if its only available on the black market? Is not the REAL ISSUE the mindset of such people who consider their dog a throw away commodity if it doesnt match the decor, inconvenient because they want a holiday and dont want to pay boarding??? Rather who whoever or wherever they got it? How many disposables were rescues in the first place? Maybe if there were no dogs available there wont be anywhere they can get one in the first place? Those who actually value their dog, so what. Let them live with a photo of what dogs used to look like. Thats the only realistic way you are going to prevent the disposable people from getting a dog. Stop everyone. you have to shut down rescues too if you are honestly serious about preventing these type of people. Shut down breeders and you will shut down dogs altogether. Rescue places dont breed, it only will take 5 to 7 years to eliminate all dogs of breeding age do you realise that? Peta does If the figures i heard are correct 15 years or more ago there were some 25,000 pedigree breeders in this country. apparently if correct 2,000 are no longer in just the past 12 months and now the national number remaining is 4,000. In a country with how many million people? Now if we are going to stop the throwaway society theres a lot of stuff they (and everyone else) shouldnt have access to anymore isnt there? Interesting logic. Punish the majority over the behaviour of what I for one so sincerely hope are the minority?

Sure looks like a purebred sheltie to me. my brother has had them for decades fits the mould to a tee for me. no x breeding there

Education holds the key. Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers? The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups. Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy. A role for ASIC, or the Dept of Fair Trading maybe? Souff never noticed this thread. how interesting how unethical are the show fraternity? thank god so far there is not a demand that to be a breeder you have to show...yet. there are those who do not like the showring, who do not like the attitude of a number involved. know some who just loved to show, to them it was their favourite activity, social occasion among the like minded. some still do, some will nevr go again after being shredded any way back to subject. how ethical are people who tell an exhibitor that if their dog cannot become a champion easily, that they have the right to return the now dog for a full refund as main register papers guarantee that dog is good enough to become a champion? As in has won quite a few challenges, then as adult teeth come in not straight as the puppy teeth but the bottoms came in slanting forward turning the scissor bite into level and slightly past that so that some judges still awarded challanges and some nil awarded it. this advice was given not just by other exhibitors but also judges. whatever happened to the FACT that many breeding quality only dogs can turn out more top quality progeny than a best in show winner? how many newbies to the pedigree dog world even know that "breeding quality only dogs" that "breeding quality does not equate with SHOW quality" even exist . let alone are allowed to exist? how ETHICAL are the people who tell the owner of such a puppy that main register is a guarantee of champion status? then there is the case of people who buy a puppy and take it to a show. not to exhibit or enter it as they have been told it is not up to show quality but will make and excellent brood. how ETHICAL are the people at that show to in one case i know of personally to tell that person their now half grown gangly pup is a x bred and to return it and demand their money back? how ETHICAL are these people? to even tell the victum to phone the breeder and on speaker phone all listen to the conversation between the now heartbroken puppys owner and the libeled breeder? how intelligent are some of the bystanders who also agreed the said puppy was an x bred without even asking the parentage? now there was the funny hilarous bit for the breeder... two of the people who agreed it was a xbred had bred the parents of that pup. this is the shit that happens to innocents who take their pride and joy to a show to show off their baby. how ETHICAL are people who do libelous let alone heartbreaking things like this to the puppies owner let alone breeder? this is WHAT IS HAPPENING by the so called ETHICAL MOB. Who NEEDS PETA to destroy the pedigree dog world??????????? the self proclaimed ETHICALS cant even recognise a purebred unless they sold it to the victum.

the only way someone can have a pet with the option of becoming interested in becomeing a breeder is if the breeder is prepared to let them have a breeding quality..NOTE NOT NECESSARILY A SHOW/CHAMPION QUALITY dog..now the new age is people at the shows are telling anyone with a main register dog or pup that if it cannot win enough challenges to become and australian champion they have the right to return the dog and get a refund. nothing to do with health checks or anything else this is how warped the membership mindset is. i even had a phone call one day from a show. in the presence of just about every exhibitor within earshot on speaker phone that they had a lady there with an adolescent pup that i bred which they ALL agreed could not be a purebred of its breed and the call was to advise me to return the money for the pup and take it back. what i found completly hilarious was the fact that two of the people who had come to that conclusion and part of the speakerphone conversation had sold me the parents??????? so who listening to that sort of rubbish including me is ever going to risk selling a dog with any sort of papers in future eh? Dogs NSW doesnt need peta to destroy it. their own members are doing a pretty good job all on their own. dont you think?

you are also ignoring the fact that the majority of people who want to breed oodles do not waste their time paying mega for one from a registered breeder check the trading post. they go for peanuts from the unregistered yarders I grew up near what used to be called council houses.. cheap houses cheap rents, many bred puppies to make money and there wasnt a registerd parent in the lot. so becomeing a dead end kennel is doing that. dead ending the registered purebred dog. heres one add.. the parents look lovely to me anyway. certainly pretty cute examples of the poodle and not a pedigree paper in sight. http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Pets-Horses/Dogs/Dogs-for-Sale/AdNumber=TP005089143 doesnt lessen the quality of the parents does it? love dad and adore mum guarding the bed.. just like my pickle used too. never had to worry about my sibling messing up my room my mini guard dog made sure no one but me touched anthing in MY room. LOL you ideas certainly does extinct anyone haveing a actually pedigree puppy though and less members and pedigree dogs though. so what do you think your attitude will achieve besides how warm and fuzzy u feel? becomeing a registered breeder once upon a time was to continue the breed not extinct it from registration like the stumpy tail cattle dog almost ended up.

people do sell on main register, with some breeds it can take longer to build up trust, what with all the "oodles" being bred all over the place. People have to appreciate that most breeders are trying to do the right thing by the breed and by their dogs. If I had a breed that was being exploited just to make money I be very wary, very wary indeed. except nobody wanting to breed oodles would care a shit about papers, you cant register x breds so refusing to let people have main registration is no excuse that it would prevent x breeding. what it does do is prevent your kennel being continued into the future which as so many forget was one of the reasons to become a breeder. to pass you breed on to future generations. the new rule that ethical means to breed only for yourself negates the passing on the batton. the new rule that ethical means only those who show are ethical means those who only ever wanted a lovely pet good enough to continue the breed is automatically cataloged unethical and not entitled to ask for main registration. and as for the show lot and the example of the pup whose teeth went out? just what on earth do they really think they achieved apart from making sure that is another breeder who decides no how no way will they ever sell another pup on main register and thus become another of the growing list of dead end kennels. which is exactly what they intend. we dont need peta to destroy the pedigree dog. there are enough in the membership doing an excellent job already. that dog in question was a beautiful example of his breed in every other point. even the teeth were at worst a fraction past level bite despite being bent forward instead of comming up straight as they had with the puppy teeth. my suspicion was the puppy teeth hadnt fallen out and pushed the new teeth forward and past them, the roots were correctly placed as was the lover jaw. ive seen some dreadfull examples of the breed with AustCH in front of their name because their owners went to enough shows to emass enough points anyway. there is no such thing as the perfect specimin once upon a time you selected for the best and hoped for the best and once upon a time it was known and acknowledged many dogs that were not good enough to grace a showring let alone win could still contributed to the future of the breed. no with the warped and ignorant that grace our show world now made so patentialy obvious by the afore mentioned dog. if any breeder is foolish to let go a breeding quality dog even if it was an apparently spot on in every department as an 8 week old pup, if it matures with any fault whatsoever that could preclude it from receiving a challenge every time. remember that pup once it had its adult teeth was still being awarded challenges. just some judges refuse and nil awarded do to the teeth. if this really is the new order that the people who show will tell the owner to return the dog and demand their money back and will themselves warn the breeder.. comply or you will never be any but mud if you do not. with such pressure being brought to bear and such a impossible guarantee being said to have made by issuing main register with a pup who needs peta to shut down the breeding of pedigree dogs? toy breeds were created to be pets. yet now its unethical to breed and sell them for pets?? and if like we once did main registered any pup we thought was a good advertisement for our kennel whether we thought it was show or breeding quality. we had that right. now the new order has changed the bar. no such thing as a breeding quality now? most of the problem is so few new members even know there is such a thing as breeding quality does not mean show quality yet can still produce better than their precious one with Aust Ch in front of its name, such is the ignorance today. is that irish or what?

because they can't get a dog on main register?? just take a gander at the pups for sale adds on dogzonline just about all state pets only or limit register. your a sitting duck for puppy farmer branding if you say you will sell with main register. and considering what happens if a newbie or even the example of an old hand in another breed decided to try a different one, after advice from fellow exhibitors and judges on which pup to choose as show quality, yes it was taken to a show for all to examine all the puppys she was looking at, they choose the pup, the mug breeder assured she knows the perfect pup can change as it matures so ends up issued with a main register pup that was winning challenges before its adult teeth came in.. puppy teeth perfect...adults the bottoms for some weird reason came in slanting forward. it was still winning some challenges n nil awarded in others because of the new teeth. the judges and those exhibiting told her the main registratin is a guarantee the dog is sufficient quality to become a champion and demand your money back. i know who the exhibitors and the judge who told her that. even better one of the judges who helped select the pup was the one who told her to get her money back. as well advised the breeder that to preserve even a shred of reputation to return the money and take the now dog back. so what idiot is going to sell anything on main register anymore? as i know my self, if you cannot guarantee how your own child will turn out.. how can you guarantee a puppy will? stupidity or arrogance? which is the problem?

you dont have to be small to be ethical... you have to realise curling up into a ball and saying "im ethical" isnt going to save you from the cull. this is to eliminate pedigree dogs and by the mass culling of membership and numbers bred already achieved, its right on track.. when will the precious ever realise that everyone is in for the chop?

isnt it wonderful when you actually HAVE the camera when you need it.. keep them comming please...