asal

Rather glad, THOSE threads have been axed. But the sentiments expressed has had me thinking for days especially some of the out of this world expectations voiced by some. If I understand correctly many of the main points brought up, to be ethical. 1)The best for the breed being priority number one. 2)All health testing possible being done. 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. 4)Do not breed to sell. 5) Breed only for your own next generation. 6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised. 7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home. There were a lot of other stuff but I didnt write them down, will add later as and if I remember. Now the problems with just this short list is for starters 1)The best for the breed being priority number one. Who is going to decide WHAT is best for the breed? Show ribbons, Champion Certificates? Self Whelping, Maternal instinct's? so the bitch will and actually can, deliver and raise her own pups without a vet always on standby? Dont assume the two go together. I know quite a few Champion lines that cannot self whelp or feed their own pups. So is the one who decides to select for a self procrreating line with showability second on the list, unethical? I know when I was newbie, the breeder I bought my first pup from was a professional breeder, she sold on average 250 puppies in any given year. She didnt want to keep her vet in the manner to which she would like to be accostumed herself. The place was, well to me anyway. AMAZING, as you entered the yard there was this HUGE shed, at second look it was 2/3rds wire, sides, and roof. Over the wire was mosquito mesh, the wire again. Why? Because no dog inside that area had to worry about ever seeing a mozzie. the other 1/3 rd was a fully enclosed area with a long hallway down the centre. On your left was the runs from memory 16 of them. think they were about 25 to 30 foot long and 4 or 5 feet wide. Floor was concrete and hosed up to 3 times a day from what I saw when I was there anyway. The part of the runs that was under cover of the shed housed the individual kennels the dogs slept in. From 2 to 4 kennels to each run. There were no gates just a step over wall.(we are talking chihuahua's here.) Think I counted 120 adults including the males. Never forget Elfreda Teddy Bear.....stunning. On the other side of the hall were three doors, one to the office with all records, desk phone etc. The next door was the whelping runs. They were individual pens up off the floor on legs sort of like a large rabbit or guinea pig cage with lift lids so you didnt have to bend down to clean them. at the end was the closed off box with its own seperate lid and a small door into the run area, for entering and leaving for the mum and a heater under the whelping box floor, so no matter where the puppies rolled they were warm. The other door was the food prepation area. She sold her puppies on Main Register if you wanted to show. Even if you were a complete newbie like me. After attending my first show, I quickly learned she was despised by many who considered her a 'puppy farmer'. Yet my puppy farmer pup won many classes anway. As did my brothers pride and joy. It also didnt take me long to realise she bred not only as a business, she strived to make sure her dogs self whelped and still good looking dogs. But that did mean not selecting for the ultra big heads and small hips or small size,(remember until the Pedigree Dogs Exposed doco, the standard still had in it "the more dimunitive preferred") the first thing she showed me was how to feel for a wide pelvic bones so there was room for the pup to pass. Same rule for slecting any female of any species I soon discovered when I bought my first stud shorthorn. From what I'm reading in others posts this lady would be the last person you should buy your puppy from. 2)All health testing possible being done. In the 1960's there was no DNA tests available. How breeders of all classes of livestock DNA tested their stock, was to In or Line breed, it was not just done to strengthen a good animals genetic influence. It also disclosed in very short order in the calves, foals, pups. If there was any deletrius genes present and would either end or strengthen that line. Now of course there are quite a lot of DNA tests available before any are born so in one way it is a marvelous shortcut to eliminating a defect carrier before it can even be bred from. The problem being, there are still thousands of defects still waiting for their tests to be found. None of which tests are free. The scans and Xrays also need to be paid for. The total, can and does run into thousands...........of dollars as in $$$$ Which of course then brings us to 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. Why ? Considering I doubt there is not a single person reading this that doesnt expect their job to pay what they are worth on an hourly rate. Even Gina Rhinehard considers her time is worth money. Being the richest woman in Australia, or is it the World, doesnt preclude her or any person, whether self employed or working for a boss do so for nothing Why does the person who bred your new puppy deserve no such respect? Instead risk the shameful label "unethical" ? 4)Do not breed to sell. This ones a pretty interesting conundrum. If no one breeds to sell, where are those who do not want to be registered breeders going to find a pup? You cant have it both ways? Even if you want an unregistered pup, same conundrum? 5) Breed only for your own next generation. Ditto as in 4 isnt it. 6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised. Fascinating this one. Thanks to all the new law's being passed for adequate housing, everyone is going to have to have concrete kennels, even if they dont intend to use them. 7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home. Now this is a fun one, puppy buyers expect just this. Except? If your "puppy buyer" turns out, is an inspector, checking to see if your dogs are being housed "correctly" (as in kennels by law) it could end rather expensively, (any one know what the fines are or will be? Is this the future ?

hahaha yes this is true ... I remember when I had my first Anatolian and needed to catch a taxi I would ask the operator can I bring my dog operator would ask what type of dog and i would say a big labrador :laugh: it worked :) ummm wonder if you had just said mastif if all might have been ok?

It is 3.75 million dogs owned, not bred every year. cant find the quote but apparently to maintain that number of dogs owned, there needs to be seriously more than 375,000 born every year to replace death by old age and accidents so they are coming from somewhere

This. If you don't vaccinate your dogs, that percentage will be much higher and rather than just being an unfortunate accident, their deaths will be entirely your own fault. It's bad enough losing a pet to a preventable disease, nevermind also carrying the extra guilt of knowing it was your fault. Arguing that it didn't work once and therefore it doesn't work in general is just throwing the baby out with the bath water and refusing to listen to reason. I never said that, I did say I have over the years lost 3. in each case was told it was sheer bad luck. then this article states is approx 28 percent. at least knowing that would have been better than thinking how unlucky can you get losing 3. helps put into perspective. I always vaccinate , gee

CAN some one please explain to this dum dum where the 3.75 million dogs, came from? considering othe figures are there that the maximum bred by registered breeders comes to 60,000 a year across ALL BREEDS?

I gather there wont be a comparison to total population of the country and total numbers of pet population and a percantage comparison? when we keep hearing of the 270,000 aussie dogs inpounded they ignore the millions of known recorded pets or the acutal percentage that 270,000, NOW THAT is what isnot being mentioned. the huge percentage still with their owners. Just googled. there are 127,817,277 - ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SEVEN MILLION, EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN THOUSAND, TWO HUNRED AND SEVENTY SEVEN people in Japan as at 2011 http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-pet-dog-population.html JAPAN 9,650,000 thats NINE MILLION, SIX HUNDRED AND FIFTY, THOUSAND DOGS THAT ARE PETS IN JAPAN. And 22,620,600 - TWENTY TWO MILLION, SIX HUNDREDAND TWENTY THOUSAND AND SIX HUNDRED People in australia as at 2011 Pet ownership statistics http://www.ava.com.au/news/media-centre/hot-topics-4 The pet population of Australia to be around 38.2 million, this includes 3.75 million dogs, while the cat population was 2.43 million. The remainder is made up of fish, birds and other pets (including rabbits, guinea pigs, and other small animals). New South Wales and Victoria account for 58.5 per cent of pets throughout Australia. New South Wales has the most pets with a total of 13.19 million pets while Victoria has the second highest number of pets with 9.16 million. Tasmania was the leading state for dog and cat ownership per 100 people. It is estimated that around 63 per cent of Australian households own some type of pet, with 53 per cent owning a cat or a dog. (Data from 2005 The Australian Companion Animal Council publication, Contribution of the pet care industry to the Australian economy.) puts it very much in perspecive how few percent end up in pounds does IT NOT?

who cares about percentages? your pet isnt a percentage to you.

not entirely, Ive always had my puppies vaccinated from 6 to 8 weeks, and the recommended 3 vaccinations, yet have still had 3 get parvo at around the 4 to 6 month mark. so it happens all right.

the dried virus particles also blow in the wind, as one elder vet told me, the minute the wind blows north west through Mt Druit he will be seeing cases through the door up to a dozen a day until it stops. Yes his Surgery was north west of what he called the largest vector of unvaccinated dogs in the sydney basin.

Parvovirus Everything you wanted to know…and some things you wish you didn’t July/August 2011 Issue By: Patricia Jordan DVM, Catherine O’Driscoll and Dana Scott Back in June of 1997, the Sunday Times featured an article by Clare Thompson about emerging viruses, with the heading: “DEAD RECKONING” Beneath the title, the summary stated: “New killer viruses are emerging every year, unleashed by the very medical and technological advances that promised to control our environment. Nature may be telling us to stop, but who is listening?” The article went on to state “Newly emerging viruses are now the biggest threat to mankind. In the past 20 years, scientists have discovered around 30 new diseases, a staggering rate of one or two each year, most of them spread from animals to man. All are immune to antibiotics, and they can mutate so fast that the handful of antiviral drugs available quickly become obsolete.” “Medical technology has spawned its own demons…there is no doubt that new medical developments, such as vaccines grown in animal cells or animal-to-human transplants, might easily contribute to an epidemic.” The article then offered an interesting example of a man-made epidemic that directly affects our dogs: it stated that parvovirus was created when vaccine manufacturers cultivated the distemper vaccine on infected cats’ kidneys. In 1978, dogs around the world suddenly began to die, developing bloody diarrhea and rapidly (often overnight), progressing to fatal dehydration. Canine parvovirus arrived and exploded round the world within a few mere months, infecting millions and killing thousands of dogs. “Most viruses go into a new host and just die out,” says Laura Shackelton, a postdoctoral researcher at Pennsylvania State University, who has studied the evolution of parvovirus in both dogs and cats. “This one took off.” How could this happen? Canine parvovirus is very similar to the long known feline panleukopenia virus (FPV). Soon after its appearance, parvo was classified as a mutation of FPV – in fact, the first vaccines used against parvo were FPV vaccines. Prior to the parvovirus outbreak, the only widely-used vaccine for dogs was distemper. At some point, cats’ kidneys were used to develop the distemper vaccine and this was shipped around the world and injected into dogs. If Clare Thompson is right, the distemper vaccine was grown on cat kidney cells and the cats were infected with FPV. Another possibility is that cats that were vaccinated for FPV shed that vaccine through their feces – a very real risk with modified live vaccines. The feline parvovirus could have easily mutated into canine parvovirus. In Vaccines For Biodefense And Emerging And Neglected Diseases, the authors state that the trouble with modified live vaccines is: “…there is a high probability of back mutation and reversion to virulence once introduced to the animals.” Regardless of how canine parvovirus originated, it is well accepted that it is a man-made disease and it is the result of vaccination, either for canine distemper or FPV. This much is obvious because the outbreaks were sudden and massive and they first surfaced in countries that regularly vaccinated dogs and cats. As with all “new” viruses, parvo is constantly evolving and mutating but it has a faster mutation rate than most other viruses. Today, nearly thirty-five years later, parvo remains the most common viral disease in dogs. There are two canine parvoviruses: canine parvovirus-1 and canine parvovirus-2. CPV-2 is the primary cause of the puppy enteritis that we commonly see. Over the years, parvo has mutated from CPV-2 to CPV-2b to CPV-2c. “This wasn’t a reversion,” Shakelton notes. It seems that dogs may be getting the ultimate revenge on cats: the CPV-2c strain of parvovirus is now crossing species and infecting cats with another brand new virus. Now that parvo is apparently here to stay and is mutating at a rapid rate, how can we protect our dogs and, most importantly, our puppies from this potentially fatal disease? Many vets and dog owners would quickly reply ‘vaccinate them!’ and that might protect your dog. But the real question is, “at what cost?” Unvaccinated dogs have long been targeted as vectors for disease. Vets and immunologists claim we need to vaccinate at least 75% of the dog population to keep deadly viruses like parvovirus under control – they call this herd immunity. Dog owners who do not vaccinate are blamed when viruses like parvovirus continue to spread and mutate. The vets tell us that as long as there are unvaccinated dogs, parvovirus will always be in the environment. And so we vaccinate. Few people have stopped to ask if the vaccine itself is responsible for the spread and mutation of parvovirus. If this seems far-fetched, take a look at the history of the polio vaccine. Poliomyelitis is a virus that attacks the spinal cord, causing muscle weakness and paralysis. When the polio vaccine was introduced in 1955, it was fully credited for the decline in polio. Like influenza, measles and whooping cough however, polio was already in decline before the vaccine was introduced. What happened with all of these diseases is exactly what happened with parvovirus. When parvovirus hit in 1978, it exploded because dogs had never been exposed to anything like the virus and they had no immunity to it. A single exposure to parvovirus however, provided dogs with long-lasting immunity and this immunity could be passed to puppies by nursing dams. Dogs soon became immune to the initial CPV-2 virus and although that original virus is still with us today, it isn’t usually a cause of epidemics because as more dogs were exposed to the disease, they developed immunity. The same thing happened in humans with polio, influenza, measles and whooping cough – eventually, enough people were exposed that the viruses were effectively controlled by the immune system. Many people credit the decline in mortality from these diseases to vaccination. In 1977 however, McKinlay revealed that these diseases were already in serious decline before the vaccines were ever introduced. - Getting back to polio, if we take a look at this disease today, there are some interesting and worrisome trends. Today, polio is only prevalent in a few third world countries with poor sanitation. In Nigeria, the polio vaccine is mutating and the World Health Organization is blaming the unvaccinated children. The WHO claims that the virus in the water supplies – passed by vaccinated children – is supposedly safe but is picked up and mutated by unvaccinated children, becoming a new virulent strain that is infecting both vaccinated and unvaccinated children. As more Nigerians give in to the pressure to vaccinate however, more of their children are infected with the mutated virus. In 2007, 69 children were paralyzed and in 2009, despite more children being vaccinated, that number reached 127. A virologist with the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Olen Kew, says that there’s no difference in virulence between wild polio viruses and the mutated form. “The only difference is that this virus was originally in a vaccine vial.” What this means is that as long as children are vaccinated for polio in Nigeria, the polio virus will remain in the environment. Official concern is that the new virus will spread beyond Nigeria’s borders into surrounding vaccinated countries, and that it will spread from there to people outside the African continent. Are we facing a new polio epidemic, caused by the vaccines sold as a panacea to prevent it? This is not unlike what is happening with the Bird Flu virus. Virologist Chairul Anwar Nidom has done some pretty interesting research showing that mass inoculations keep the disease in the environment by: Producing weakened forms of the antibodies to develop in vaccinated populations Which means that more birds are vaccinated Which means an increase in genetic mutations in the birds which, in turn, increases the virulence and severity of the virus. Avian disease specialist Dr. Charles Rangga Tabbu has also spoken out against mass inoculation for the Bird Flu as a scientifically baseless policy. Veterinary pathologist Dr. R. Wasito has noted that vaccination for the Bird Flu has allowed it to mutate and that other animals including dogs, cats, racoons and flies can now carry the mutated virus. Could the same thing be happening with parvo? According to an article in The Veterinarian by Mark Kelman, “animals that have received at least one vaccination (for parvovirus), represent 28% of puppies infected, and 11% of adults infected.” That’s a large number. There are a lot of reasons for vaccine failure, the most relevant being blocking of the vaccine by maternal antibodies. These days, there are many high titre/low passage vaccines that claim to override maternal antibodies. The good news is, most manufacturers show that these vaccines protect most puppies when given at 12 weeks of age. The bad news is, high titre/low passage is just a fancy way of saying there is a lot more antigen (up to 65 times more) in the vaccine that will be shed into the environment through vaccinated puppies. Ironically, another human intervention that is increasing the threat and spread of parvovirus is the use of Tamiflu to treat infected dogs. Historically, antiviral medications, like vaccinations, will result in further mutations in the virus as it adapts to its environment. Tamiflu has been banned for human use in Japan because of the high incidence of psychotic reactions. Interestingly, Tamiflu is manufactured from an extract of Chinese Star Anise; a herb which is also associated with neurological effects. Meanwhile, as Clare Thompson predicted, parvo has continued to mutate rapidly since 1978. It has moved into a new ecosystem, and is adapting to that ecosystem in a hurry. Viruses that successfully switch hosts are rare, but potentially catastrophic. Canine parvovirus has now become a major threat to the conservation of wolves. About half of the wolf puppies in Minnesota have succumbed to canine parvovirus. Carnivore parvovirus isolates have caused disease in Lynx, bobcats and raccoons. As tempting as it is to blame unvaccinated dogs for the spread of parvo, the fact remains that if the original CPV-2 strain was all we had to worry about, there would be only a few minor outbreaks because most of our dogs have developed immunity. But as parvo mutates through the use of modified live and recombinant vaccines, it will remain one step ahead of our dogs – and now our cats. Vaccinated dogs are virally active, and for 21 days after vaccination, they are shedding the virus every time they go out in the yard, on a walk, to the dog park, the vet’s office or to training class. And now, with their immune system compromised by the vaccine, and with the ability of recombinant vaccines to mutate and create new viruses, vaccinated dogs become a viral incubator. Does the parvo vaccine protect our dogs? The answer is, protect them from what? There is a heart disease called cardiomyopathy that is associated with parvoviruses. Cardiomyopathy did not affect dogs before the parvovirus outbreak or was very rare. Since the parvo pandemic of 1978, cardiomyopathy is prevalent in many breeds and breeding dogs are routinely screened for this often fatal disease. It is believed that the parvovirus vaccination is likely to be the cause of most cases and that vaccination created the heart muscle association in parvo that is not seen in natural infections. Like polio and the Bird Flu, the parvo vaccine may not only keep the virus in the environment, but it may be responsible for the new and dangerous mutations that allow it to cross back into cats and other species, transmit through the air and cause other potentially fatal diseases such as cardiomyopathy. Furthermore, 28% of vaccinated puppies still get the disease. It would appear that in the long run, parvo vaccination may create more problems than it solves. But people are myopic at times and, in our fear of our dogs dying from preventable disease, we vaccinate them today but don’t worry about what can happen tomorrow. If there is one lesson life has to teach us, it is that life goes hand-in-hand with risk. Too many people believe they can eliminate risk with vaccination and this just isn’t the case. In a short term clinical or field study, parvo vaccination may appear protective: unfortunately, nobody is taking a long, hard look at the long-term fallout and what it can mean for our dogs, for us and for the environment. In the September 2011 issue, we will explore the impact that parvo vaccination can have on individual dogs.

What a relief, thought it was only me get those thoughts...especially the public tiolets...love the new design ones that you push the tap and it shuts off automatically AND no doors to open to get out....yay

"And if you worm your dogs regularly, doesn't that help?" Sure does, unfortunately its not that simple, if they hve access to any of the following they can be reinfected. Or maybe not even infected by your dog either. unfortunately Tapeworm eggs pass out in the faeces of infected dogs. If eaten by a suitable host, these eggs may develop into hydatid cysts in the internal organs of the host, especially the liver, heart and lung. On the Australian mainland, these cysts occur in several species including sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, kangaroos, wallabies, human, deer, camel and wombat. http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/webpages/cart-6sa36r?open http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/249686/Hydatids-the-basics.pdf any dog, fox, or dingo that finds and eats the internal organs any one of the above species, will then be shedding the infective larve in their droppings. so any soil contaminated by dog, fox, or dingo droppings is infective. once dried and dust you wouldnt have a clue if those dirty fingers have been contaminated, dogs coats can carry the infected dust as well. any road kill of the above species or found dead can be infective. many people kill their own meat, those who do not know may give to dogs, many who do know, bury the organs,,, except it can be sniffed out and dug it up by enterprising canines. so it isnt just spead by well meaning neighbours either.

oops double post?

oooo thats sooo cute. I dont mind anywhere else but face is sooo so out of bounds, n yes never touch food without washing hands first. you just never know what you may have picked up otherwise, why take the risk of hydatid just for one. you NEVER know what you dog could have accidently picked up. I caught me darling neighbour feeding my dogs offal left over from their sheep. They had no idea whatever about hydatid. they were horrified to learn about the danger and what it can do to them or their children if they did get it. when I was a child we were all taught at school because the incidence in those days was very high. to get it can be devestating let alone fatal. http://iceh.uws.edu.au/fact_sheets/FS_hydatids.html

oooo thats sooo cute. I dont mind anywhere else but face is sooo so out of bounds, n yes never touch food without washing hands first. you just never know what you may have picked up otherwise, why take the risk of hydatid just for one. you NEVER know what you dog could have accidently picked up. I caught me darling neighbour feeding my dogs offal left over from their sheep. They had no idea whatever about hydatid. they were horrified to learn about the danger and what it can do to them or their children if they did get it. when I was a child we were all taught at school because the incidence in those days was very high. to get it can be devestating let alone fatal. http://iceh.uws.edu.au/fact_sheets/FS_hydatids.html

Exactly, no matter how cute and adorable, their idea of acceptable is is I know so many places those cute tongues have been before

I was thinking the same thing, as well as wondering why not a squeak it was a bulli breed. good press and they stay quiet, at least they posted the photo of the hero. but still feel its a good press opportunity lost.

disasterso true, look at what happened when EI arrived in Eastern Creek, that didnt stay contained for long

If its any comfort ive a friend who spent nearly the 5000 for import in ai and vet bills for eventually the arrival of two pups born, neither being suitable for main rego. was not a happy camper

And pull the barges - LOL. Gosh they are beautiful dogs. Think you have your breeds mixed up! Little Schipperkes wouldn't be pulling any barges! Nah, I'll bet their dogs come to the loo with them but they just wouldn't ADMIT it! If it's not my dogs it's my cats! If I leave the door open, the dogs will come and check on me, sometimes hang around, sometimes wander off, but if I shut the door, cats' paws come underneath it. In my last house where I could reach out to tap their paws from a seated position it used to be quite a game. :laugh: One of the cats will also sit on my lap. Nothing is sacred! My darned cat decided it was just the time to introuduce me to my own 'kill' gave the "here kitties , I have dinner" call and dumped a live mouse at my feet

This won't be you, then? :laugh: (I know that these actually come in handy for people with dogs that can't walk much, etc. Still... hilarious). for some people,like my mum, she needed the exercise more than the dogs. chi's do zoomies anyway. thats just how she took her three.

In which case Michelleva is totally okay to say she saw Purebred dogs today at the pound then Geez the smallest things people make a fuss about I swear. considering people are being told that pedigree breeders are responsible for all the dogs that end up in the pounds it pretty unfair. when you consider for example I understnd there are less than 60,000 pure bred puppies of ALL breeds being registered in any given year now. Yet over 260,000 are impounded on average every year. Its a bit hard to understand how pedigree breeders can be held responsible for the other 210,000 as well?

Pounds often have no idea about less common breeds and most of the general public would not be able to recognise a true pedigree purebred in most breeds. When I worked for the AWL where we only took 3 purebred surrenders in the 6 months I was there, the pound brought out a dog that had an ear tattoo they could'nt trace. They decided to check with us before he was pts as an unclaimed stray. The boss had a look and said they couldn't decide if it was an Elkhound or a Deerhound , which are nothing alike. She asked me to have a look and the dog in question was a purebred hunting pack registered Foxhound that I tracked to a hunt club in Vic. They didn't want him back but it turned out he was being kept locally as a pet by people who found him and had rung in a lost dog notification for a Beagle cross. They were only reunited with him by accident when they came looking for a replacement dog and found him in our kennels. Ho, what a lovely story. So glad they got him back.

You mean pure breds? Or were they all surrendered with pedigree papers? Whats with the nit picking? They were purebred dogs, how would I know what they were surrended with. I'm just a member of the public making an observation. Clyde isnt "nit picking" just for fun ask the person you see with what looks like a pedigree dog is it registered with a pedigree. 9 out of ten, frequently more the answer will be no. I and my family have had cattle dogs since before I was born. 90 out of a hundred never had a pedigree parent in living memory. The registered purebreds are the minority. It is becomming increasingy so with all breeds as pedigree breeders wont sell puppies on main register anymore. Just ring up the puppy for sale adds. nearly every one are limit register only this has been the norm now for over a decade. Anyone who wants an entire purebred is going to the trading post, local shops and gumtree. They are not comming from pedigree breeders. Most these days are either already desexed or come with a desexing contract. So precious few purebred pedigree's around for backyard breeding these days.

Good Grief! Charlie Brown I can relate to all three. Bit of a bummer you cant tell anyone how exciting it is to see a NORMAL doo. After all that worry. Then finally.......... All nice and firm. Elation.