asal

Exactly. OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs. It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ... and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..." EXACTLY. they dont even take responsibility when a vaccination batch is faulty, not that they are at fault, but I know from devestating experience when 7 out of nine died overnight, 8th died that afternoon, the bills for saving the 9th he asked could he keep her as he had become so attached during the weeks she (literally) lived in his pocket on a drip. No doubting his dedication to saving her. Not a word was said about compensation let alone return of the vaccination fee I paid to keep them safe. not kill them outright. only learned months later that batch killed 600 before manufacturer recalled that batch. my friend worked there and spotted the recall, gave me the batch mumber and it tallied with the stickers on my cards. I have since learnt the vaccination companies rarely tell the vets why theres a recall so they dont have to compensate the owners..nice eh? as for the vets who will do every test and check knowing the patient has less than 10percent chance of recovery , yet only tells the owner,we will do our best to save him/her, not a hint there is 90 percent that death is going to happen. then pat the mug shelling out thousands for the great efforts made to 'save' their pet. So sorry, we did our best, some times these things happen. Nice fat invoice though and the owner never knew the real odds. only recently were quoted "$3,000 for the necessary needed intensive care, or wont survive",thats not counting all the scans and examination costs alrready done, a family friend with medical experience looked at the scans and asked, whats the odds of recovery, after a bit of thought the reply? Ten percent. The pet already had lived 1/3 longer than the breed average. vets these days are not trained to tell you the practical. They are trained to do all they can regardless of the cost or the low possibility of a successful outcome. Some only prolong life for another few weeks. As one more honest vet said to me, over my unconsious cat with impacted bowel. "I can ream her out for you for $700 but that isnt removing whater is the root cause. Chances are you will be back in two weeks for the same op. Her body is shutting down and I feel her day has arrived." She was 18. She had arrived as an adult all those years ago. We later learnt her real age was 20. so the old girl had a good innings. I was so grateful to that vet for telling me the truth. Most today do not, they are taught to prolong whatever the costs. Pet owners hearts rule their head, but they should still be given ALL the facts before making the decision

So even though this post is 6 months old. who in heck made MDBA God? Why would they want to send MDBA a copy of the pedigree AND post a copy of the pedigree on DOL? Thought you werent allowed to promote the MDBA on DOL. Of course people always have things to learn but I think you overstepped the boundaries in what you have said. MDBA is not the be end and all of everything. according to my vet, the ingredients in some vaccines have very deterimental effects on a puppy health and immune system and its nothing to do with the pups genes. thats where the grey area sneaks in. do we relly think collies and murry grey cattle are defective because they HAVE INTOLERANCE issues with ivermectin? same scenario, different chemical

x2 You may have a good chance of curing the problem and having no more issues once it has grown up... You could even show the dog once the condition is cured BUT you have to consider what you will do if this doesn't happen and you are still fighting this horrible condition in 12 months time. As for "the breeder won't want it back" - if the pup has been purchased as a breeding prospect then it doesn't really matter what the breeder might want - it is not fit for purpose and you would have a very good case for a refund. Generalised Demodex is very serious and no ethical breeder would brush it aside as anything less. (The jury's still out on localised Demodex) Honestly I would take a step back. Of course you love your pup, but do you love the pup more than you love the good relationship with your husband? If the vet thinks this is serious and could be an on going (lifetime) problem then I would suggest a second opinion - ask your vet for suggestions - and reconsider when you have this additional information. I don't think anyone can say for sure if this will be a lifetime problem, but the severity could be an indicator. Sorry you have found yourself in this situation. Been in this myself. Bought a stunning potential stud boy, except not long after he arrived at 8 weeks hair began falling out and hot weeping skin began, my vet suspected the pup was reacting to the vaccinations, which was crashing his immune system. resulting in the same thing, Demodectic mange. Some pups after ivermectin treatment recover fully after the immume system has had a chance to recover from the vaccinations stress. some will always need to be permantently on low dose ivermectin for life and in my belief anyway not to be bred from in case the low immume system is hereditory. its not easy to know which scenario you are looking at until the pup is months past its last vaccination and no more problems recur after the ivermection is stopped. you will certainly know within 3 months if my experience is anything to go by, in my case the breeder not only refused to refund or exchange. even boasted this as a 'sign' of his good breeding???? yep still a breeder too.

Yep thats what they tell me too. except how come its a one size fits all, no exceptions, even when the bitch has 3 or less pups? what about the one pup litter bitch? one size does not fit all. why should the one pup litter bitch be restricted to 6 pups yet the 16 pup litter bitch gets to produce 96 pups? whatever happened to common sense??

if the bitch is in good health and good condition the code of ethics is as much a load of rubbish as "ethical breeder only produce a litter to keep" look how few are being born now, too little to even keep some breeds so low in registered numbers to stay geneticaly viable let alone someone wanting a pet has only the byb's with any for sale. Ask any good repo vet, its no problem for the dogs. breeders are being blindsided by the animal libber brigade, bitches should have their litters young then retired. not this one a year or 2 in 18 months which means if you did want a 6th permitted litter shes twice the age she would be if best practice was followed instead pandering to the luni fringe. just read up how concerned gynacologists are over the risks to ageing human mothers and the significantly increased risk of ageing eggs producing DNA damaged babies. Downs syndrome isnt restricted to humans............Same applies to dogs and every other breeding species. Most damaged DNA means unviable embroyo, but the likes of Downs does not only survive so does the damaged dna sequence which can then become part of the gene pool if they have babies...if its a downs puppie? who will get the blame? London to a brick the breeder will either be said to have been unethical 0r it wouldnt have happend. or probably slated to being caused by the ever useful bin to throw any of thes mistakes into "ITS INBRED" basket. two downs can produce homozygous downs....every progeny then is downes. This is just using one mutated gene as an example,,, read up on the subject of ageing eggs.

OH am so sorry, I put my previous post not realising you had lost her. We are in mourning tonight, our daughters horse benny had to be put down, at only 23, we could see something was wrong but not what, the vet said his system was shutting down, better he be put down before he began to suffer. lots of tears here tonight. RIP benni

What kind of 'chemo' are they using? the nano cell therapy is far less damaging to your dogs body and FAR more damaging to the cancer. Ive seen the results for brain tumours and its extraordinary. theres a vet near them who has done a lot of work with brain cancer and non hodgsons lymphoma. its been so successfull in remission in dogs its now been released for human trials. a friends oncolagist told her he cant wait for the day its the first line of defence instead of the last. they had had dogs with clear MRI'S after treating them for brain cancer and still in remission 12 months later and still clear. amazing and two aussies discovered it.. yay. http://www.engeneic.com/edv_technology.html here is australia's very own dynamic duo Jenny and Himanshu http://www.engeneic.com/profile.html Australian Story , has done two about them and their discovery. best wishes for your girl.., are you in sydey? the vet who has done a lot of work with the nanocells is in land cove I understand Not too far from their lab.

spot on. unfortunately doesnt seem like many people have the brains to turn it around. too scared of being deemed unethical if they dont follow the "party line" and too slow to realise the line didnt come from fellow breeders in the first place. it is amazing how many people follow like lambs to the slaughter and never question who is leading the line?

trouble is doing that is something of a minefield for the puppy buyer, go to a show with their new puppy if it came from a breeder tht doesnt show, can find them being told its a crossbred and they have been dudded. the purebred worlds greatest enemies are not just the animals libbers but the self labled 'ethicals' they are so busy destroying the reputation and name of anyone they either dont like personally or have decided doesnt fit their notions of ethical they are too selfish to realise they not only destroy the reputation and credibility of any other registered breeder but themselves as well to the hapless victums whose only crime was to purchase a pup from someone who isnt a clique member, it was happening in the 70's when Elfreda kennel puppy buyers received an icy reception and sady is still going on today. I still enjoy remembering the realisation of what they have just been tricked (its a fact that some adolecant puppies like adolescant teens go through some real unglies periods, aka the ugly duckling story) by the two people who where suckered in to agreeing a newbies pup was a x bred and called me to either replace with a show quality pup or return the purchase price that they bred the parents.... I know who was laughing fit to wet themselves, the breeder to set them up and disliked both, and me and didnt realise who I got the parents from in the first place. the self proclaimed ETHICALS are helping the animal libbers destroy themselves, I doubt they have the brains to ever see it for themselves. .

BANG ON. along with the desperateratiom by anyone who does have a purebred with main rego to NEVER let a newbie have main rego in case they puppy farm it. as well the now wide held belief to be ethicl you must be able to say "I never sell my puppies on main register" Ethical to me, has become as much a swear word as the now acceptable f*#% once was. There is still the bright side, I suspect I will live to see, soon every one will be ethical because no one can find a M/R pup anyway. Still get the giggles over an acquaintance who was one of the ultra ethicals....nope never sold a M/R pup. went on holidays and left dogs with relative. one came in season and the neighbouring dogs started being a nusisance...so got em all desexed...vet was sooooo helpful. Well she can never slip from her ethical perch now, not a soul she could get a descandant from to get started again. To me they arent Ethical but Deadend, breeders.

WHATS the odds then the job will be to make sure it doesnt get moths, or left in the sun too long and damaged...and up for pet cruelty after all :laugh:

Please don't generalise Steve, a lot of breed clubs do their very best for their members. Even though we are a minority breed we run a very successful club and have a large membership. Not all breed clubs are the same, the fact that you had a negative experience with one club doesn't give you the right to tar all clubs with the same brush. Miranda Im not going to get into the crap here because I dont think its in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with breed clubs is not just about the ones I have been a member of and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally. Steve, just suppose I posted: 'I owned a couple of Maremmas and I'd rather own just about any other breed than ever go there again. Nasty temperament and where you see some of the worst traits in dogs' Would you not have replied requesting me not to generalise and tar all Maremmas with the same brush? And what would you think if I replied 'Steve I'm not going to get into the crap here because I don't think it's in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with Maremma is not just about the ones I've owned and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally' Need I say more? Anyway my apologies to all for going OT, I will now bow out of this thread :) The difference is Steve is speaking from personal experience while you are speaking as a person in denial. Oh dear it looks as if I'll have to bow in again :laugh: Of course I'm speaking from personal experience, I've been a general/committee member of breed clubs for nearly 40 years :) Yes, Steve. is right. it was a fellow member of my breed club who set the seizure of stringy up to get me kicked out wth a conviction. I constantly tried to get them to understand "the more diminutave preferred" was destruction of the breed to ceaser only deliveries. only pedigree dogs exposed achieved the deletion. Show breeders seem to either wear blinkers or too scred to speak up ? so the stuff that gives fodder to the libbers (I know I promised to never post again.) its tough to read this stuff and see how IGNORANT everyone seems to be of what is going on

dont feel you said the wrong thing, actually you will be getting the last laught. IF AND I MEAN IF? There are any ANKC members left in the next 10 years, they will have to do it. it was only the existance of thousands of stumpy tailed cattle dogs that the breed is again an ankc breed, well at the moment. although unless the hunt and kill reg'd breeders by the animal libber and they who must not be named. its lucky for those who like them they are safe and well in the great unwashed enclave of the unknown and untracables. At the rate its going, dogs will be a black market, cant advertise any to sell, it will be word of mouth only. think im being alarmist? think again. my treatment when that officer turned up to "inspect" a registered breeder, changed like from dark to light, the minute i was no longer one of THEM. one second I was the enemy to be found lacking at all costs to cosy chat and nice to meet you. real eye opener. the chnge when it was obvious i had no breeding dogs anymore. chilling too.

Didnt Mary Magdalene it was said, had a previous profession? Whatever happended to he that is without sin can cast the first stone?

Yes, I read that, since when should she have to put up with her past being thrown at her add nausium. Frankly given her past she would probably be a far better cop for it. I know of one whose favourite lark was to zoom past a cop or coppers.. a long possie after him was even more fun.. then leave em in a trail of dust. his name ended up becoming one of the legends of the force. nearly 20 years after retirement he was still recognised whereever he went. As one chap said on a recent forum, "Anyone remember a Sunday morning current affairs program many years ago, they did a story about the Hume Highway.It started with the reporter riding in a Cubeio F10 or 12.The reporter may mention of Tom the driver turned white.Then they had Tom on.He drove a mint white Falcon 500 wagon like Matt had on Skippy.All the bells and whistles.He was driving it across the little harbour bridge, telling tales when he was in the force, including booking his father in law. " Spent his life saving lives. Somehow I suspect Kim would have done the same

apologies. if you lot cant figure the obvious anything said is pointless anyway. you reap what not only what you sow,in this case what others have added to the paddock as well, the comming crop looks 'interesting'

You really need to delete that word "supposedly" "absolutely" is far more accurate. I am trying so hard to not read, let alone post anything,about that lot in particuluar. probalby should never drop in and peek.

as already said they filmed some of their goons chasing a sheep with years of wool on it, How it survived would have had to be a miracle. AND they put it to air????????????? No sheep owner would have treated one of their or anyone elses sheep so badly, any farm kid caught behaving like that would have had the strap and no dinner. as for the Peta influence. HOW MANY times have I said the RSPCA was so concerned they sent letters to all members warning that Peta was intending to infiltrate and to sign up every family member and friends possible. The Lady who showed me the letter worked for one of the liberal politions, had been in the office on some business, cant even remember how it came up but there it was ..in writing no less.

you have no idea what you are missing I have two cockateils button and birdie, no way i can have my cup of tea without birdi enjoying some too. when my daugher had braces, both found them irrisistable, just had to try and peel them off her teeth the second they realised she and SOMETHING on her teeth. POOR KID had to keep her lips firmly closed if either were loose or they would make a beeline for her. one afternoon i didnt realise she was in the loungeroom asleep. i let them out.. minutes later I heard muffled screams from my daughter. she darent close her mouth as stupid birdi had her head in there trying to pull the braces off?????? nope she didnt stop trying even with my daughters screaming to me for help the noise in her little featherd ears in there must have been pretty deafening surely? They may be little, may be fragile (as in could have had her head bitten off) but determined....not even mission impossible was going to deter this feathered superhero from saving my daughters teeth from the metal invader. bet your bippi on that one

I used to have a pet galah many years ago, was looking after a friends dobe . one day I heard the dobe yelping and ran outside to the weirdest sight. Sita was running around the house yelping. at the end of her tail was this grey and pink blurr with wings outspread ?????????? Nope wsnt chasing the dog, as first seemed. Beak was holding the end of her tail. neither would explain what had happened when I finally caught Sita doing her third lap around the place full steam trying to get away from charlie. Had to make charlie let go of her tail though. Then charlie huffed off. Sita never went anywhere near charlie again anyway, even if I never discovered the details leading to that day. Did find the cage on its side door open, so suppose can make guesses

The dogs are still barking they are just quieter, why is that sad? They still yap their heads off. Sad is having an irate neighbour on your doorstep or the local law officers insisting you dispose of your dogs. I used to be dead against it but after looking after a whole kennel of them when a friend ended up in ICU after a heart attack. (23 of em) I was astonished. they can bark all right, the difference is it cant carry for blocks only metrs. the dogs are happy, can yap all they want or be quiet all they want, and no one is annoyed, I ended up with 7 of them when she was not well enough to have more than a few back, friends took most of them but had to laugh when the carry cages of the ones allocated to me by the other friends were all the biters... I remember the reason now they were all done, a neighbour had a baby and without even saying a word to my friend lodged simultanious complaints with the council, rspca and animal welfare. to have all three knock on your door the same day had a pretty bad effect on her all right, to keep her dogs and peace with the neighbour they were all debarked. frankly i doubt it was coincidence the heart attack occurred only weeks later, I for one think it was the stress of the all out attack by the neighbour with absolutley no warning they weere unhappy about any noise comming from the dogs, they had been neighbours for 5 years without a complaint made till that day when all guns arrived blazing.

Description of a weed: a plant in the wrong place. Description of a fox: an animal in the wrong place. The damage of both to the environment they move into is catastrophic. Foxes are sneaky vile little critters who get into places where a bullet cannot go, but the carbon monoxide finds them and off to sleep they go. The natural environment needs this to happen. Souff cant help wondering if the chap who trained those dog shouldnt be contacting the Tassi government asap. Forget where I spotted it but they have confirmed by dna of scats found there that there are at least 17 individual foxes and they are planning massive drops of 1080 the dogs finding the dens would be a far better way surely? surely the last thing they should be risking is 1080'ing the devil's?

Thanks. She is an amazing lady. It cut to the bone what many others at shows had to say about her. I was thrilled to be able to take a litter of puppies directly descended from her dogs not that long ago, she was so pleased to see them. As you know she retired quite a while ago. She taught me so so much. Even better, finally not that long ago one of her detractors all those years ago, were boasting how lucky they were to discover the new pup they had bought was descended from Elfreda...LOL Couldnt get away fast enough to tell Phil. Finally recognised for the quality she always strived to produce. Unfortunately the things I listed are what Ive either read on this forum and most of them I have heard personally from puppy buyers. Although, many are right, most of the phone calls to the animal welfare groups about complaints against a breeder, are from fellow breeders, even my letter from the minister of agriculture told me that. I cant believe it was 12 years ago now, those who think I am bitter are mistaken, its fear I cant cope with. Until that day I thought as long as you kept them well and healthy as Richard Amery said "you have nothing to fear" except since there was nothing wrong with my dogs and they all did comply with said "code" it didnt save him from being sized after all, because there's an out clause. "form the opinion" and your dog still dissappears, the only good thing is if it doesnt die under the aneshetic and nothing chargable is found you do get it back. Not sure which made the fear worse, discovering your "guilty until proven innocent" or even when was proven innocent, the continuos mutterings of "where there's smoke theres fire"... I do hope one day people will remember the reason they have their dogs is because they like them, so do the other people who have dogs, believe it or not so many people with such a common interest should be friends . Anne of Green Gables liked to think that way, pity more dont. Surely it shouldnt be restricted to book characters? The majority of people who get one of your puppies are great people and become family members, lets face it they have one of your dogs. so it does tend to be a life time link. But there are enough of the other types thats its just not fun anymore. As for the people who expect a lifetime guarantee. hand's up who has been asked for that? I doubt I am the only one, I am not talking about not being ready to refund or replace if there was a serious something come up your vet missed in its first year. These people are talking 5 and more years, I asked just to be sure. Never wrote down each so not sure how many , but at least half a dozen a year the past 3 years. the last year would amount to nearly 1 in 5 so someone is busy spruking it. Although my suspicion is its someone who either hasnt a clue and will be getting a shock to discover seemingly perfect parents dont reliably produce perfect babies, or doesent intend being around if a claim does arrive. Although these three are the ones I've seen here many times , although no idea who the people are since everyone only has a nick name. so no idea if they are breeders, pet owners or Peta types. 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. 4)Do not breed to sell. 5) Breed only for your own next generation. I know many newbies believe to the ethical they need to comply. (Ive met them and listened to them trying so hard to be what they think it means to be ethical) So there is no chance of any of them becoming an Elfreda quality breeder. I do think these questions need to be addressed somehow some way so the future has a chance to be much brighter than I suspect is shaping for future generations. Then there's that UTTERLY STUPID, mindset that blames every findable genetic or congenital fault is the fault of inbreeding..................... If the parents dont display whatever it is, then London to a brick if the fault is genetic then it is recessive. Learn your genetic's, a recessive HAS to be present in both parents. How many know that many deletrious genes are what are termed poly genic? (The term “polygenic inheritance” is used to refer to the inheritance of quantitative traits, traits which are influenced by multiple genes, not just one. In addition to involving multiple genes, polygenic inheritance also looks at the role of environment in someone's development. Because many traits are spread out across a continuum, rather than being divided into black and white differences, polygenic inheritance helps to explain the way in which these traits are inherited and focused. A related concept is pleiotropy, an instance where one gene influences multiple traits. Early Mendelian genetics focused on very simple genetic traits which could be explained by a single gene. For example, a flower might appear in either orange or yellow form, with no gradation between the colors. By studying plants and the ways in which they mutated, early researchers were able to learn more about the gene which determined flower color. However, by the early twentieth century, people were well aware that most traits are far too complex to be determined by a single gene, and the idea of polygenic inheritance was born.) Yet time and again I hear some one say the faults in that pup are due to inbreeding......... Even when you can look at 6 generations and nope not one common ancestor. Actually it still happens when the parents arent even the same breed, wonder where the film clip is of Rob Zammit with that cute little designer dog with the luxating patella's, think it had two groin hernia's as well as a navel hernia and something else? cant remember at the moment, could hardly walk but it certainly wasnt inbred but it was a genetic mess ,, so much for the wonders of hybrid vigour in designer/mutt dogs preventing the expression of the very genes inbreeding is supposed to cause. How can that be? Because they dont HAVE to be related to carry deletrious genes. By the same token if the two parents do not carry a particular bad gene, guess what? you can put them father to daugher, mother to son, brother to sister and what isn't there CAN'T turn up.. Inbreeding cannot create something if it isnt there! LEARN for yourself, instead of believing "experts" who havent bothered to learn for themself, Badam Library at Sydney Uni if FULL of books to learn from, AS is The Stack. Don't believe me, don't belive the ones telling you the opposite to what Ive just said. Learn for yourself, I did, ITS ALL THERE..... those who say all evil is in inbreeding havent done the study.j They are parroting what they have heard, not what is in proven genetic research. Elfreda knew all this and more. Well I have tried (hopefully for my sanity the last time) to get u lot to think for yourselves and learn. Its up to you learn, learn to help each other instead of thinking someone is out to get you so better get them first and looking for a good spot to sink the knife. The libber groups are busy doing that for you. Why help em? Morning all. hopefully this is my last post... well im going to try to keep my word.........got to retire some time.

As if that would ever happen! *cough* Gee what a good dog, Honey, my friends greyhound, wouldnt leave enough room for two people, even one is squished.

Havent even touched on the expectation of many for that LIFETIME guarantee, when they get their pup. I know I did ask one person who asked me if my pups came with said Lifetime guarantee, suggested they stick to getting their pup from the one who offered that. Would greatly appreciate to know who is that breeder to see if they still have any in five years, since it was long discovered the majority of new breeders are no longer, within that time frame. As I asked the gentleman concerned. Can YOU lifetime guarantee your child. There is a very famous line used by breeders of all livestock the world over "Put the Best to the Best and HOPE for the best." Why? because Hope is all you have...there are no guarantees in mother nature. Common sense isnt expected in the dog world is it? Fortunately. I am no longer a breeder. WHAT A RELIEF.