asal

I dont know if it might help, , but i am buying them for my cat, dog and horses. a lady discoverd that after she belled her goats, she stopped losing them to snakes. the vibration from the bells seemed to encourage the snakes to avoid the goats, who until now would spot the snake and so investigate, usually with fatal results. thats how I lost two of my poddy calves, wish I had heard about the bell option before that. Another friend just lost her dog despite a few thousand that 'almost' saved her, the antivenine saved her, trouble was she then had a reaction to the antivenine. So there are going to be a lot of brass belled mammals around this district now. cheaper and longer lasting than the ultrasound gizmos proporting to do the same job.

I wonder will the day ever dawn, that the precious self styled 'ethical' finger pointers will actually realise that?

thank you doctor for the diagnosis. OOPs! was that a free consult? or do you need my medicare card for billing :) The members here of Dogzonline are so fortunate you are prepared to give so freeley of your vast experience in dignosing the psychosis present in the mentally unhinged here. I live in a street of doctors, psychlogists, department heads, fellows of the royal collage of surgeons, head sister of one of sydney biggest teaching hospitals ..u name it. Sister will be fascinated to learn your learned opinion as will Doc and soooo many other of his colleges. Even the QC didnt notice despite decades working with the childrens court of nsw. yep have it all nicely printed for them to peruse. How remiss they missed dignosing their neigbhour in the last 30 years, they better get back to medical school shouldnt they?

Which judges would those be? The Allbreeds judges with no deep knowledge of the breed? The group specialists? the breed specialists? The international judges? All can put up quite different dogs. I know plenty of breeders who like to win but very few breeders dogs do it consistently. Most breeders I know breed what they consider to be a 'good dog" nby their interpretation of the standard, using pedigrees as a basis and take the wins as they come. I can think of highly awarded dogs that have never produced their equal in the whelping box. Breeding based solely on what wins is a slow road to oblivion from where I sit. BUT IT is a safe 'ethical'road

Sheridan,ooooooo Sheridan? Wherefore art thou await with baited breath your explaination............... :)

It's natural to have dogs within one breed with variations in features, and natural for some of these variations to be 'exaggerations', but for one of these to actually win at a show sends the wrong message. If they make you shudder, should they be winning? Even if there are only a handful that do? That sends the message to the breeder, and the other breeders involved in the same breed, that those exaggerations are desirable. I think the judges ought to take a long hard look at themselves, and how they are shaping the dogs, and how that is affecting the purebreed community. Their influence, by awarding (and rewarding) certain traits, is why we are having this debate in the first place. I'm sorry but that's a crock of..... the blame lays squarely with the breeder of such animals Doesn't the pool of judges usually come from from the pool of breeders? I assume this was a rhetorical question sheridan :)..... Judges must have bred at least one champion to be able to begin the process of becoming a judge in this country. HO my DOG? Im eligible

I did not stop selling them my puppies because I thought they were not doing the right by the pups. I stopped because I realised the best pups were going overseas, instead of to keep the family going in this country. I also realised if I wanted the best of some australian lines, the only way was to make a trip to hawaii and buy one bred by the ETHICAL'S that wont allow another Australian access to their dogs.. the dead end breeders as I think of them. Half wanted to do it. Just the thought of the resulting fury was very heart warming. But the repercussions would be weeks of abusive calls to the ETHICALS first line of defence..... The Honourable Richard Amery, spelled that out so succinctly in that amazing letter dont need to spell that one surely?

It's natural to have dogs within one breed with variations in features, and natural for some of these variations to be 'exaggerations', but for one of these to actually win at a show sends the wrong message. If they make you shudder, should they be winning? Even if there are only a handful that do? That sends the message to the breeder, and the other breeders involved in the same breed, that those exaggerations are desirable. I think the judges ought to take a long hard look at themselves, and how they are shaping the dogs, and how that is affecting the purebreed community. Their influence, by awarding (and rewarding) certain traits, is why we are having this debate in the first place. I'm sorry but that's a crock of..... the blame lays squarely with the breeder of such animals Wrong. the breeder who wants to win will by defination select for what the judges are putting up. The breeder who decides to breed what they believe is correct ends up attracting the attention of the "precious" self appointed Ethical, brigade. Not following the party line is not good for that persons reputation let alone health

Yep... got an invite to join them when I was 12 actually... Funnily enough, having a high IQ doesn't always translate to having any common sense... *grin* I'd say that a good number of people participating in this thread have a good smattering of both actually. T. Hope so. The dogs need some sane owners. yep, never chucked that in ever before, for exactly your reason. and some can be sooooooooo snotty because they are. My poor cousin nearly fainted when the results came back n I was in his precious league, laughed till the tears ran that day You dont have to be to achieve what you really want either, my brother nearly soffocated before he was born, the doctors proclaimed him dead but my mum wouldnt stop trying to get him breathing. he did suffer damage, had incredible difficulty learning what I remembered just by reading once. My mum was told it would be cruel to even let him finish high school, let alone encourage him Study to be an accountant which was his wish. He spent 20 hours studying to remember what took me seconds, but he did it..... Determination and motivation, is just as important

Hmm just spotted this " Unfortunately they don't have the market cornered on stupidity and misinformation, plenty of Aussies and everyone else capable of swallowing compete garbage. On my FB just this morning one of my 'friends' had shared some crap about refugees v pensioners assistance, it had been debunked as garbage ages ago but still believed by some obviously" "I believe Facebook should have an IQ test as entry....that would eliminate millions.................. " somehow I suspect the results would be similar if the same was introuced to the requirements to become a breeder ? Sadly for your preconceptions of me, I qualify for Mensa Australia, do you? http://www.mensa.org.au/ I noticed dearest Sheridan, your concern as to if I ticked the "have you mentored newbies" box. How devestating for you that was a tick. But obviously by your last post I quoted there are lots more boxes you havnt the required tick in? the "Have you bred Champions" box gets ticks too incidently

Thank you for your unasked for opinon of what rates as ethical and what doesnt. It is people like you who make judgements like that, who are the reason the dog world has such a shit reputation. It wasnt joe public who made me the nit I now am, it was precious self proclaimed ethical's like you. If what you just said is not being judgemental of someone who you havent met, does not have the breed you adore. How come you have the hide in previous comments from your self that my problems stemmed solely from fellow breeders of my own breeds? AS Steve said, Mcdougals was advertised by the CC's, sanctioned by the CC's BUT my, you have been elected by WHO to be judge and jury and executioner, over and above the CC's at the time? You are the problem. I long ago came to the conclusion, that the show mentality is the epitamy of unethical. a "breeder" is the custodian of the animals they have not only for today, but the future. You would not have them at all if previous "breeders" had not been prepared to not only breed puppies for themselves, but passed them onto newbies to continue them into the future. That future if you honestly cared for the animals and the breed , would have been selected not just for outward appearance, they would only use and pass on the physically and mentally soundest of the progeny, including excellent maternal instincts and ability to reproduce without cesearians except for the occastional malpresentation. Breeds evolved and should continue to be able to survive without a vet needing to surgically deliver litters because the mother is incapable of normal birth. What you breed is the legacy for the future. To knowingly continue to produce hernia riddled individuals knowing any human with the same hernia's is in constant discomfort and potentially life threatening, yet a SHOW breeder does just that. If the best SHOW shapepuppy is hernia ridden there it will be collecting challenges while its less perfect show shape siblings with not a hernia to be found, dissappear for good, not only from the show scene but its the hernia show shape that produces the next generation. Just because the standard does not say hernias are a disqualification doesnt make using them for breeding ETHICAL. IF the showies desperate for their precious Champion title simply showed their hernia'd pretties but bred from the sound unhernia siblings, we wouldnt be seeing breeds so riddled with hernia's their breeders havent a hope in hades of getting the majority of their pups past an export check? The majority of people who want a Cavalier King Charles, Pug, Shih Tzu, forget all the other breeds my vet named will be waiting a long time if they want a hernia free pup from most of the leading lights of these breeds. As one lady who was described to me as the bastion of her breed, contributing more to her breed in this country than any other. When I went looking for a pup for my sister who wanted a Cavalier King Charles instead of one of my Chihuahua's (how dare she) but being a good sister I went on the hunt on her behalf for a good quality pup. 6 months later I was still searching for a breeder with hernia free pups. This Bastion of the breed explained to me I was wasting my time, as in her opinion "within 12 years I doubt there will be any hernia free cavaliers, you cant use second best, if the best has the hernia's the breed will go backwards if they are not used ". This mentally is to me the height of UNETHICAL. THIS thinking is the putting the ribbon before the futre of the breed as a whole. She is the reason I decided to prove you can breed hernia free Cavaliers. It took almost a year to discover a breeder with hernia free over ten year old dogs. Another discovery I made in research of the breed. Here we have a toy breed? (for the newbie and the showie) a sound toy breed has double the normal lifespan of the larger breeds. 13 to 17 tends to be the breed average, Ive known 20 yr old toy breeds. So learning the average for a cavalier was 8 frequently less. the other box I had included for ticking was had dogs ten or over. At the time I had never heard of Mitral Valve. Thanks to buying the origional pups from a breeder with not only no hernia's all three pups lived happily mitral valve free to 15 years. my sister was complemented continually on what a lovely dog she had AND she had her for almost double the average span of the breed. Ditto for mine. Their descendants are also averaging 12 to 15 like the original breeders dogs. Although my priority was soundness before show looks. The reasoning behind that being you can always select for the prettiest from the soundest after you h have the sound right. That people like yourself consider you can sit in judgment and lable me what YOU BELIEVE is to me the height of ego. I do not have to do as you say. Once upon a time there was something called FREEDOM OF SPEECH. FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Thanks to the likes of you that is in the process of being eliminated. If I want a sound healty animal the likes of that Bastion of the breed, and perhaps? you? considering some of your priorities? would the last place to look

I am a chipper and that happend with one I had chipped. apparently its recorded who bought that chip number, because I received a phone call asking me who do I have in my records of the owner of the dog with that chip number. good reason to make sure you file EVERY bit of your relevant paperwork. you , AS ITS chipper are its last port of call in the case of records being lost further up the chain. it wasnt a walk inthe park going through every coypy but I found him. Turned out the council records had not onlynot been recorded, hence the call to me. but the owners had moved with no forwarding address. lucky for him, they let me buy him and i rehomed him, he sure was a cutie.

Something else I learned about someone who bought a pup from McDougal. on the main they were getting a better pup than what the same breeders were selling to their fellow Australian's. Another case of "why is it so?" The vet who did the checking was not only extrememly good, was also extremley through, no puppy passed if it had even a hint of a heart mumour, a hint of patella, eye or breathing problems and even in breeds like shih tzu, even the tiniest hernia meant 'out the door.' How many Australians never knew one to three henia's were not acceptable? Go to any Australian show and watch,.........see how many Shih Tzu and Cavalier's have all three along with their Aust Champion title? Its not listed as a disqualifing fault in just about all breeds. Yet if you bought a McDougal pup in Hawai.....not a single one could be found with any. Seemed to me the people of Hawaii, were getting a much better deal than the australian public from the very same breeders

I think for some breeders the export market was always more attractive. Perhaps the large number of breeders who were selling to McWossname are no longer doing so and have thus stopped breeding. I used the same vet who did the export papers, very interesting take from some of the sellers I met who took them for a pre check to make sure they would pass before they were dropped off. Preferred to sell overseas so other fellow breeders had no chance of access to their 'lines'. Some very well known show kennels preferred to be paid a fraction of the price a fellow breeder would have been willing to pay for one of their pups. This was straight from the breeder not second hand. Some even had seperate prefixes to they who liked to watch the export lists couldnt know .. One of my friends sold just about every pup they didnt keep themselves to them, I did sell some and found they even sent you back photos of the new owner with the pup. Even had some who came to australia for a holiday, would phone to ask if they could meet their puppies parents. Some even became so wrapped in their purebred puppy they applied for a prefix and became members. No puppy was acceepted unless it was on main register. So a new owner who did discover they had a very nice dog had the opportunity to decide if they wanted to become involved in the pedigree dog world. One young couple I met who came out here on their Honeymoon and heard from their friend who had one of our chi pups, that we had some cattledogs as well as the chihuahua's fell head over heels in love with Rokeglen Red Rhyme, she was not for sale at any price, so I referred them to Hilton Sinclair who had some of her pups so two ended up founding a kennel in Hawai. My assessment of what I saw anyway was many happy new owners, breeders were not really doing themselves any favours money wise, If I didnt feel like dealing with joe public for a while, I would sell some to Mcdougal, although I discovered when I did , the people who bought them were marvellous and eager to be friends and quite often wanted to see the parents of their pup. yes, Its burningly obvious if your desperate to fit into 'ethical' you dont admit to being such a sicko. but since the label was already firmly stuck long before when it became painfully obvious I intended to walk to my own drum and not grovel to the self proclaimed thought police I did check em out. Your little cotton socks would fall off if you knew the names of the establisment so busy tut tutting and think I dont know who they are.. I didnt at the time but my in the circle friends did when I pointed out the until then unknown faces I had met there... From what Ive seen,heard and learned over the decades, to me establishment/hypocricity are one in the same word and meaning, to me anyway.

good point, I had a cattle bitch who thought that was how you greeted people when your happy to see them. worked a treat scaring the daylights out of anyone who didnt know her. A friends Maremma does the same.... no one going to her place for the first time gets out of the car.

well you have your answer then. the dog world chewed em up and spat em out, well quite a few from what i see Mentoring is something my training was geared to, even mentor newbies who didnt even buy any from me, I was brought up to help people on the principle of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". far as I can see that has been a bit too often, morphed into "do unto the other bastard before he can do unto you!" (favourite advice from some rather ex acquaintances, )

pretty good research, I remember that too. soo many calls,, "none of my bitches are going in pup? What am I doing wrong?" In our case having cattle and plenty of neighburs and friends with sheep, horses u name it, all off the planet, cycle and pregnancy wise. maybe 2008/9/10 were the catch up years before the parents were too old to keep the lines going for the next generations?

MANY of the newbies I introduced became successful showies, breed club members,committe members, even helped run shows. You actually CAN BREED, SHOW and WIN with sound, happy dogs that wouldnt rate a second glance for inclusion in a program like "pedigree dogs exposed" where are they now? Distressed, disillusioned, and wondering "why, what did I do wrong". they still have their dogs, the reason they bought them in the first place, they love the breed they chose. dont know if they are members anymore ? another lady my only connection to her she used one of my males a few years ago, very keen, very conscientious. ran into her just before new years. not going to renew her membership again.. still adores her dogs, still intends to keep her line going but no longer as registered . weird, "why is it so" so many have come to the same conclusion? I have not seen them for years so how dare you imply any negatives come solely from being associated with me Although have to concede, its a very effective way to deflect attention away from others beginning to ask for themselves, "WHY? IS? IT SO?" Dont want that happening do we :) Might prove awkward

I was a kid who took Professor Sumner Miller completly to heart. 'WHY IS IT SO?' Doesnt just apply to science. I looked at the dog show scene, I looked at the dynamics going on there and decided this isnt for me. Except I soon learned as have so many, the dog scene considers it ownes you once you have a pedigree dog. If you do not follow the followers of fashion you tend to be perceived as, if you didnt join em, your against em. whatever happened to your human righs? to choose who you love (petincluded), to choose who you marry(which pet to keep too). to choose what pet you want? even more shocking, to choose to breed for soundness and the pleasure of raising them and finding good homes for them, not showring fashion that is so distorted that the doco "Pedigree dogs exposed" had a plethoria of damming examples to air. The dog show world has a percentage in their population that believe its their right to make these decisions for you. If you do not want to have or breed for the traits that were shown in that doco, you become the target of the self labled ethicals. if the self labled ethicals actually WERE ethical, there would have been no dogs available for footage to screen on that doco WOULD THERE??????????????????

Pity you cant see past what you are talking about above. I have no enemies anymore, I ceased to be a target in July last year. I DO NOT BREED MALTESE, never have. never will yet this entire thread began because this once much loved and incredibly popular pet breed is now low enough in numbers to qualify for the 'endangered ' list. As is the continuation of the existance of pedigree dogs. THAT HAS ZILCH TO DO with me. It has everything to do with todays breeders, desperate to be 'ethical' making it well nigh impossible for the breed numbers to remain viable. To be ethical you do not sell on main register. So where are new to the ranks to come from?

those who need luck are anyone who want to be able to choose between a REGISTERED purebred pup and unregistered purebred versus a x bred. I bought my first purebred puppy when I was 17 with my very own wages. he was a toy poodle bred by Bel Ami. That was 1965. Bought my first chihuahua in 1978, again a purebred, in both instances the breeder considered their pup nice enough to go complete with its Registration papers. As we both know, fat chance of that happening today. The 'etical' rot started , well I first heard the showi mob parroting it in 1980 about eliminating backyarders among them. I never showed my poodle boy, couldnt hack the primping and that awful clip. but did show my chi, not that i found the bitchiness at all attractive. So left them to their cat fights and stayed away from the show scene joying my dogs at home and began breeding.. I could see then that eliminating 'backyarders' will ultimately eliminate every stupid one of them. I may not have finished high school or ever got better than a 55 in english or maths, but considering a home on a block is the australian dream if that lot of fools eliminated every back yarder all who could be left would be living in an apartment, THERES few of them in any australian city compared to the sprawling burbs with the mandatory backyard well its only taken 32 years but they managed it.... success, complete success is visible on the horizon now. My take? we will be back to the days before Kennel controls. those who want a purebreed dog can still have one, it just will come with a written pedigree as neither its parents or its breeder is an ANKC member. There wont be any available from ANKC breeders, if there is an ANKC in existance the membership so small, the waiting list would be years.

maybe a reminder is needed, as to the reason for this thread? Although the problem is looming across all breeds and breeders. Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:02 PM There were only 299 ANKC registered maltese bred australia wide last year - of them less than half would have main register papers If someone isnt working out some strategy to ensure survival of the breeds its time they woke up. There are breed clubs shutting down all over the place.

The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1953 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[10][11] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[12] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[13] This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings", players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards, and successfully launch them off a cliff. Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming "suicide" is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences.

Just received a pm THERE are some out there with a better command of comprehenson of what is going on after all. thank DOG ALTHOUGH I fully understand why its safer to 'lurk' than speak out, I know I am often left wondering. Is what I just said not in a language the reader actually can read? Let alone understand what is said. I know when I was a teen, my friend Ursula's father, Mr Rudowski used to give me his Polish Encyclopedia and have me read it to him, then he would ask me what had I just read about? So, I would look at the accompying photos and have a guess. He would be THRILLED, "look, she is learning Polish" Maybe Sheridan and Pebbles et al, really need everthing done with pictures? Sent 01 January 2013 - 10:47 PM "There is too much damage being done and not just to pedigrees.They will take every one else down with them if they can,all because they want to be an exclusive club and have 1 rule for them and still set rules for every one else whos not even a member." (for the benefit of the reading impaired, the comment above does not just apply to the breed clubs, it APPLIES to ALL the state ANKC bodies and their members and committees) My. probably illegable (to so many unfortunately) reply EXACTLY. yet there seem's nobody is 'home' in realising this. I am so glad you do understand this,,,soo maybe there re more out there after all. but, the touble is time is running out, if those like us who can see this do not rally together and speak up. I fear for the future if they do not join us. I hope they gain the courage to speak out Well the year is HERE. HAPPY (AND BUSY AND,more join us in speaking out for everyones sake and make this) NEW YEAR the happiest and finally SUCCESSFUL in turning the lemmings away from falling into the sea or going over looming cliff's.... cheers

asal, I must say that I agree with Sheridan here. I don't even know exactly what happened to you but to be honest I find your posts extremely hard to read and verging on irrational. I read a lot more than I post on DOL, and I find myself skipping over your posts because I can't decipher what you are trying to say, and cringe when basically a seething hatred of a grand animal rights conspiracy is all that really comes through. It's a shame, because you're obviously very passionate and have a lot of experience. I consider myself somebody who is very passionate about animal rights. There are kooks in the animal rights and welfare world as well as the show world, and every other group or people in the world. I think that on most accounts I understand the different sides of the dog world coin, and have sympathies that lie with breeders and rescuers, and can see the forest for the trees where it seems a lot of people can't. But I just.. don't understand you. It is probably better that you dont. stick to the ones who can express themselves so well like sheidan and Pebbles. they are the future. I was and am the past.