asal

YES IF nature only gave them one pup to choose from they have to accept it. well thats what i was told by breeders that actually get to select from litters of 8 to 18. yet when i suggested in the case of some of my bitches the 6 litter rule meant i get to choose from 6 pups in her lifetime wanting more to choose from is puppy farming. well from where it sit if those who told me that then if your bitch gave u 8 to 18, then there s no need for even a second litter or your puppy farming but hey, its nice to be able to sit on a fence and criticise others, one thing about the dog world, everyone has an opinion and its always ethical if its yours n anyone that disagrees is what?? :D unethical, of course silly.

really makes the case that the majority of dog breeders are not too intelliegent doesnt it? but hey... pay up....u may be dumb.....BUT U ARE SUPERIOUR :D

if she were a horse id be giving her a dose of parrafin oil, shoots anything straight through. better to be phoning the vet i think

am i sad this train wreak has happend, yes, but i couldnt figure how to get many to see it for the wreak in the making. maybe being blind, like the precious, is the better way. far less distressing when u cant see or realise your heading for, let alone, in, the kill pen. ummm whats the odds, 90 percent wouldnt have a clue what moi is talking about would they?

ok ... a hypracrite,.....i do feel for judy. ...... this is soul destroying what they have let looose. laughing at the horror the precious are feeling at realising, finally, (well some, suspect the majority are still comfortably precious(they will probably still be knitting and saying its all a mistake, ill be let out soon as they realise they arrested me by accident , right up till the execution) probably way too late to stop let alone slow the dozer thats going to roll em all. yes i will always feel sorry for the judy's . but our own have aided and abetted this.

just getting back to this, had a conversation with others some time ago, and apparently there was a couple going around in Victoria reg breeder to reg breeder homes, and asking to take the puppy/dog for walk outside their homes, and trying to nab the dogs. dont' know if they were ever successful. they apparently came to my parents home and asked my mother if they could take the little dog we had for sale outside to give it a walk, mum said, yes i will walk her for you so you could see. mum thought it was a bit odd but we never give over dogs fully in someone's arms ever. the couple said to mum they'll be back with the money, they never returned they disappeared, i said did anyone get a description of this couple? pretty scaring stuff thats there's people out there wanting to nab dogs like that and they could end up anywhere on a farm being bred to buggery or anything. I have had a litter of puppies stolen from my home. But what of single women who live in the boonies? What of people with children who dont want strangers coming into their homes? how many regsitered breeders live hundreds of kilometres from the areas where they sell their puppies? I just sold a pup to Perth and that made it impossible for me to have the new owner visit even if I wanted them to. How many reputable registered breeders sell puppies via their website? How many reputable registered breeders dont want to have their homes as open houses for anyone who wants to come and look at them ? Yet we give a tick to it on animal rights and animal welfare propoganda. Why? edited to add then there is a push for it to be made law and we are all too frightened to say - bugger off. We just agree because if we dont we are seen as the bad guys. I WASNT TOO frightened to say, look here your shooting yourself in the 80's. get told if you dont agree with this your a puppy farmer.. ... didnt shut up so im a puppy farmer. you cant speak against or your branded, im branded and it dont wash off even 30 years down the track am i happy that the precious are caught up in their own net.......finally......... ;) might have had more sympthay for em if they hadnt decided to sacrifice string for their pathetic vandetta.....

ok up until this post i was wondering what your angle was. i get it now. i still think someone is going to have to shoot me again i am sorry to say, put me out of misery. this is really doing my head in good. yes they have neglected to mention about mandatory desexing in oscar's law..... souff, you are saying me and oscar law people like as though i am part of that group, i am not, i am not part of any group, i just support closing of farms and banning sales in petshops, all the other stuff, sounds like hidden agendas, bills put forward by RSPCA and oscar law people may or may not be partnered with them don't know, i hope not.......it all sounds deeply political to me and really the reason why i say its doing my head in is because i despise politics......kennel clubs that get political absolutely despise it, it can get like that at work places too i am of the mind that i don't need it, don't want to play in it, Dogsvic are having a forum on puppy farmers in october so it will be interesting to go along and just see what will be said, they are asking what is the best way to tackle this issue, they are asking for input from their members. like DogsQLD are obviously doing, they do name and shame breeders who don't follow the code of ethics they do publish names in the gazette every month i see, and also fine the breeders in some cases or suspend their membership just depends, it seems to be different for each member. i.e. if a breeder breeds a bitch before 12 mths of age or has more litters than they are supposed to according to the rules. also i heard down the line that breeders who have bred alot of litters are being questioned why they are having so many litters. breeders that i've known for many many years. again, it is within the toy group i am speaking about not any other group. i have no idea what is going on with other groups and other breeders of these other groups. dogsvic did say in one monthly gazette that they do have a dialogue with government departments so maybe RSPCA are pushing for their stuff and dogsvic are counteracting it. so dogsvic are trying to address this situation of farmers within our ranks i see. but its a very hard issue to address i feel.....who is a farmer who isn't.....who's ethical and who isn't? how do you categorise a farmer thats reg with the ANKC? RSPCA are trying to address puppy farms and also Backyard breeders in the one hit but the problem i have with their bill and what i have read is they are trying to get through to govt by grouping reg breeders in with backyarders and farms. i think RSPCA should just concentrate on backyarders and farms and let the state controlling bodies deal with their own members RSPCA from what i have read so far have no idea about pedigree dogs but they think they know because UK put out a negative doco on them. so how would you guys address the issue of farmers within our ranks, what is the best way to deal with them? well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down! so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot. The issue has already been dealt with at that level. Everyone who will be involved in making laws already knows how they will do it and what THEIR definition of a puppy farmer is.What your definition or any one else's definition isnt counted except that because most think its someone who breeds lots of dogs commercially we rally for laws which will stop people breeding dogs on farms in high numbers and we snuggle up with animal lib to do that. Do you really think animal lib and RSPCA dont know this ? The defininition of a puppy farmer is someone who breeds puppies in substandard conditions. Substandard is defined by anyone who is breeding dogs who isnt doing so according to mandatory codes for breeeding establishments [via the DPI] and anyone who isnt according to planning laws applicable in your shire. The fact is that every person in this country who breeds dogs is already under Prevention of Cruelty to Animals,state companion animals laws, mandatory codes for breeding establishments,and council planning laws. This has nothing what ever to do with whether they are breeding purebred or cross bred dogs, whether they are breeding one or 1000 dogs. So when they bring in laws which affect commercial puppy farmers those laws will affect everyone who owns a fertile bitch. So far in Victoria breeders have a bit of a blank bit there because state companion animals laws say if you own less than 5 fertile bitches you dont have to worry about laws which tell you what floors you have to have, where you put your poo, how often you clean up, how your dogs can sleep.It also says you dont need a government permit to run a domestic animal business if you are ANKC and have less than 10 fertile bitches but more than 5 and the planning laws cut in anyway for you to be able to breed dogs on your premises. Any one can be an ANKC member and being an ANKC member doesnt stop you breeding non registered dogs as long as you arent doing that with registered dogs. In NSW its anyone who ever breeds a litter.In Queensland they have a pilot program running on the gold coast which they think is the answer and RSPCA want bought in Australia wide and it is anyone who owns an entire dog they come under the laws. $379 for a licence and an inspection of your home before you get approval to keep an entire dog. In Victoria you break the law if you dont vaccinate your dogs every year , in NSW you break the law if you dont get a note from your vet to get you out of vaccinating every year. In NSW they have laws and guidelines - when I asked them when the guidelines cut in - answer - when there is a complaint. These guidelines tell me I have to feed my puppies as Im weaning them in individual bowls, they tell me I cant keep my cats water bowl in the same room as the cats feed bowl! 100% of what is going on here is a desire for the RSPCA to have more police powers Australia wide. That is they can come in seize your dogs,and any paperwork you may have which might prove your case,say anything they want about you and your dogs without you having the right to a second opinion, kill your dogs and destroy the evidence, charge you a massive bond to be able to retain ownership while its coming to court and leave you with no where to go to have them answer to anything you might say in your defence. There are many many things working against purebred breeders including the one that's been hovering to stop us breeding some of our breeds and being answerable to another agency which will over rule the ANKC and all other groups on welfare issues as has been recommended in the Bateman report and snuggling up to animal liberation and calling for the RSPCA to have more power to police more laws without adequate answerability is folly. Whats more I promise you that any minute private rescue will be under this gun too. i dont' know what to say to that except :D why don't they bring in hitler.....they might as well. getting to be a communist country with all the laws, bans and what you can have and what you can't. people making laws that benefit themselves it sounds like ;) without getting background knowledge....just point fingers. many years ago in the 80's when i was still at school there was a paper going around, fascism will come to Australia watch out. think it is already here! we all scoffed at that. hes already here dear. except he/she's called a "special constable" now

n are magistrates unbiased? i was present when Marion Alcorn was sentenced. the judges exact words "its a crime not to worm your horses" the exact same words on their adds being aired on prime time tv at the time. at the mercy of the decision of one man alone heaven help judy.

Banning the sale of dogs and cats in pet shops is at least a start and will help to make a dent in the demand for cheap 'cuties' for pet shops to make a huge profit on, thereby, hopefully reducing the number of poor souls that come into the world for this purpose. There is the problem though of private sale taking the place of pet shops, as you say. Perhaps making it illegal for unlicensed (unregistered, and in Qld's case, un-accredited breeders) to sell kittens or puppies, or even undesexed kittens or puppies would help to resolve the problem. Unfortunately, the demand for cheap puppies/kittens and the trend of promoting 'oodles' as the in thing has blown everything out of proportion. The natural attrition that used to occur in part-bred puppies/kittens has been blown out the window by the desire to pump puppies out Woolworths style with the least possible outlay in order to be able to sell to the middle man in bulk which is the only way they can possibly make any money at all. I was once approached by a pet shop for puppies, and resisting the urge to spit in her eye, I asked her how much she would pay - $140 per puppy was the response. I looked at her cages with all the dogs selling at around $1,000, and thought, 'no wonder you have the hide to ask'. I then took pleasure in telling her I wouldn't let one of my kids go to her in a fit. :D ;) hullo??? "cheap cuties" who are u kidding. saunter into any pet shop and ask how much for some puppies YOU want to sell. some guinie pigs YOU want to sell some rabbits YOU want to sell? havnt have u? im the nosy type. the "puppy" "pet" farmers are offered for example $250 for the pup sold for $1800. n the gp's and rabbits. lucky if they get offered a dollar each.....soo any sensible pet buyer shouldnt be looking at the doggie in the window. its breeder would have been thrilled to find it a good home for twice what the pet shop paid for it. from what ive seen the majority of people ive run into with a puppy or puppies in a basket and heading into a petshop, had their cute n fluffy, got into the family way by accident. maybe i either missed meeting the puppy farmer or they just dont say they are... n who would i suppose but thats not much income considering how much it costs to raise a pup or pups

LOL silly u thats the REAL agenda

there have been so many stories and movies made on the subject of be careful for what u wish for. the genie always gets it wrong. pity no one realised or took heed, this applies to the real as well as the imaginary world

I bought my second pedigree pup that decided me to become a member of the cc. that was 1978...... when i showed my darling....get told "ho that breeder is a puppy farmer" and even then ways were being decided how to put the disgusting out of business. that lady did breed hundreds a year, that lady understood genetics, that lady selected for self whelping lines, i saw hundreds of pups over the many years i knew her and i saw a far higher percentage of sound pups than ive ever seen in the homes of her detractors. be careful of what you wish for. in the race to destroy some YOU WILL DISTROY ALL. and you and your breeds will be the loosers these were the years when the term backyarder began to be bandied. even then a fool like i. thought "hey, everyone has a back yard? eliminate backyarders and u eliminate yourself?????" well the wheel has been turned and sadly i see what my stupid brain could see the precious couldnt. wear it in good health. sadly i do not see solutions, you have blindly pushed to destroy without realising and refusing to realise you too will be in the sights. even worse pushed for without equally pushing for any accountabality or avenue for appeal, its a weird mindset that a murderer has more rights than any animal owner? or the animal being used to persecute its owner, n no that not a spelling mistake. judys darling died, so many more will. its a bit like watching a sci fi, but in this case its real. n remember REMEMBER Judy is facing charges that amount to 84 years jail, n she had already pleaded guilty. n unlike the murderer she will be tried by a magistrate, not a jury of her peers, considering she is facing what amounts to a life sentence for what? showing her dogs, why not? why isnt she being judged by a jury?

well you would understand this one asal, with our breed, they have a molera some chis? well we all got into discussion at a show one day and apparently one breeder sold a puppy with a molera, young puppy to a person who took it to a vet, and you know what the stupid vet said, put it down dogs should not have a hole in their head, so the poor pup was put down! so you can get idiot vets. i've had timid chihuahuas.....just the genes its nothing we've done to the animal all our dogs get treated the same, all end up with different personalities just like humans. but inexperienced people might see it as the dogs been hit or abused. think its important to recommend your own vets for new owners to go to rather than just randomly picking a vet that might turn out to be an idiot. the first chi to come into our family, took it to the vet for its vaccination and yes was told the same thing. n the vet? only one of the lectureres that teach the young vets. like what the? if even the teachers cant do their homework what hope for the next generation of vets and such experts sit on boards and "advise" governments. remember the mess stringy came home in. the vet who "treated" him was Mark Lowry, now the head of the nsw vet association????? BvSc dont stand for saint or saviour, much as many seem to think so :rofl: come to think of it, once used a vet who was charged and pleaded guilty to asulting a work experience student. so saint... nope. never forget his reply when i asked him how could u do that? his reply "God tempted me and i was too weak to resist" my astonished reply " considering you would be the one who has gelded how my my my colts.soo are you telling me you have less self control than my stallions? you would be the onegelding them if they didnt back, when i told them? his reply was "I never thought of it that way" like derrrrrr likewise polies are being asked to draft legislation with absolutly no idea of how it can be manipulated to do far more than they envisioned when it was passed. pity it wasnt one of them instead of Judy Guard caught up into the net they fashioned

another truth, is not all dogs LOVE anyone and everyone on sight. tibetan terriers for example are suspicious of stangers. sooo what does the vet who used Judy Gards rehomed one to send the rspca to raid her.... talked the new owner into letting her put it down because its not properly socialised? the dog was a show dog, you cant successfully show a frighned dog? why should the dog have to fawn over someone it only just met? no one told it . fawn on the vet as they have the power of life and death over you, a prefectly healthy pet died because it didnt know only recently i was asked to help rehome a ex show dog. champ in fact. first thing the owners son said, was no one would take her because she is so timid. she again is a breed that is aloof of strangers. soo i ignored her and she came to me. used the same words i figured her owners would use in the ring and nxt thing she is in my lap. a friend came round after we arrived home. talked to her in the same vein and he too ended up with one excited doggie. it was sooo obvious she was thinking. hey THEY SPEAKA MY LANGUAGE. THIS DOG would in all likely hood be put down as unsocialised if examined by that vet

are u in new south wales? these vets are working in collaboration with Engenic, we are friends with jenny and hemanchu who have pioneered nano cell delivery to cancers. they have completely cured dogs considered beyond help. like completely gone brain tumurs non surgicly http://www.vetspecialist.com.au/download/Chemotherapy.pdf it is now being human tested at 3 melbourne hospitals... although its only restricted to those already decared beyond hope first, but our dogs are lucky they can access it now

that is true what you have typed extra and we all know this but that info i cut and pasted is designed for the general public.....if you tell them all that people are going to get confused. what would you guys say under "what is the difference between a ANKC breeder and a puppy factory?" I mean we can all say what we really feel and i do agree with the point that many of us dont want people coming to our homes sizing up our dogs then taking them away when we aren't home or telling someone unscrupulous, (my worry all the time) but how is that going to help the cause? but leaving out the truth so you "dont confuse" the general public also means to mislead said general public. by omission. joe n jane public will believe exactly whats written. whats wrong with all the facts not what looks nice for "public" consumpion?

well done steve. was in the process of adding my comments practicually identical to yours last night and told. leave it, your too upset what a pack of crock that is. nowdays even letting someone know u have dogs is inviting the scenario of arriving home to none left. isnt that why the powers that be stopped putting breeders addresses in the journal litter notices? it was discovered they were being used as a shopping list by theives?

I am aware that other people have lives and what not, however it really should not take almost a week to answer my question considering it was only about their stance on registered ethical breeders and seeing how they already had stated that they were not opposed to them I would have thought that the answer would have been forthcoming very quickly. It also should not matter if I sent an email from a free email provider considering lots of people only use them. Manners is also a virtue, however it is one that is fading fast from this world --Lhok I just love how this is repeated over and over like u think your holding a cross up to a vampire? what on earth makes u think your not about to be tarred with the same brush as those in your own ranks you have decided are "unethical"?????? and are happy to stand by and see wiped from your "ethical" ranks? u all are members of the cc's,??? you all have registered dogs??? better get bigger brighter crosses mayhap? as i tried to explain earlier, your all the same critters. the lions doesnt care which antelope its herdmates think is ethical, or the antelope that thinks it is the epitime of ethical and so can cast the first stone on it decides are lower than life in the ranks, that antelop firmly believes it shouldnt be dinner but to the lion, its just the same as the rest of the potential dinners Asal, I laughed when I read your opening line, but you are absolutely right. There can be no difference when legislation is written. The words "ethical" or "unethical" will not be making an appearance. The people behind Oscars Law don't want breeders to be breeding or advertising dogs - full stop. The lion still wants the antelope for dinner - ethical or unethical antelope does not matter. The lion is the Animal Libbers ...... and the antelope is the Dog Breeders. They will just try to make it look like that is not the aim. Bigger, brighter crosses will give no protection to even the best of breeders. Thanks for the laugh though. Souff funny how few dont seem to realise Judy Guard is the bell wether for the lot . of course now the knife has found her, most of the the ethical mob brigade are muttering, seee was unethical after all or it wouldnt have happend ... where theres smoke theres fire u know

I am aware that other people have lives and what not, however it really should not take almost a week to answer my question considering it was only about their stance on registered ethical breeders and seeing how they already had stated that they were not opposed to them I would have thought that the answer would have been forthcoming very quickly. It also should not matter if I sent an email from a free email provider considering lots of people only use them. Manners is also a virtue, however it is one that is fading fast from this world --Lhok I just love how this is repeated over and over like u think your holding a cross up to a vampire? what on earth makes u think your not about to be tarred with the same brush as those in your own ranks you have decided are "unethical"?????? and are happy to stand by and see wiped from your "ethical" ranks? u all are members of the cc's,??? you all have registered dogs??? better get bigger brighter crosses mayhap? as i tried to explain earlier, your all the same critters. the lions doesnt care which antelope its herdmates think is ethical, or the antelope that thinks it is the epitime of ethical and so can cast the first stone on it decides are lower than life in the ranks, that antelop firmly believes it shouldnt be dinner but to the lion, its just the same as the rest of the potential dinners

maybe right now is not the best time for me to be reading anything connected to the pedigree dog world. just learned there is a letter going round to kick one of the directors off the council. n at the same time learn despite having bent over backwards to newbies to help them get a start, discover i was under discussion at our last breed club meeting and get told by one it was not to say anything good about me so apologise for being more than a little miffed at the non fur brigade

maybe i wrinkled my fur because on one post they are happy with their dogs. not one but two. i was unaware they were crossbreds was under the impression they were bred by a registered breeder. tend to forget there are registered ethicals and registered destroy em at all costs breeders. frankly having been chucked into the to be destroyed at all costs pot by those i thought to be friends im a teeeeny bit titchy on the subject.

keeps the chickens n the sheep calm while the knives are being sharpened. n yep im still laughing, some have just woken up to the new wonder legislation to stop puppy farmers is aimed directly at those who whelp their puppies in their homes. n wonder how many have finally realised the so desperately under powered rspca have had the power to seize and remove for over 20 years simply on the observation of a special constable "to form the opinion" the animal needs urgent veterinary treatment. no need for it to actually be anything wrong with it at all. and bill the mug (ooops owner) for all costs incurred at TOP OF THE RATE COSTINGS. THEY dont excercise it too often, just when its a special case, like a helping out a friend. cant let the plebs know too much can we, keep it down to a few raids so those who scream are not believed. dont act when its glariongly obvious and explain hands are tied not enough power...... writ to your polies so we can doooooo something. well sucked in mayhaps

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.) There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also? ever heard the saying "make your own judgement" you have had two dogs from this person and say you were very happy with them. yet because this person is being badmouthed here or anywhere else (for that matter) you ignore your own experieance and believe? I am a bad person, ive been badmouthed, why only theother day here referred to as insane or raving? forget which. oddly enough the raving was telling a truth the vast majority do not want to be heard. let alone believe, that could cause problems if the great unwashed actually knew the truth its the quickest way to deflect anyone taking any notice, declare the whistle blower as the "ravings" n problem solved

Hi bigD..this is actually called 'linebreeding' and done properly is an accepted method of breeding. Also moving too far away from the standard defeats the purpose of breeding altogether dosnt it? Slavish devotion to the standard is what breeders should be doing imo... I also tend to agree calling another dog ugly is not called for I agree contact breed clubs and there are a couple of Flatcoat breeders here on DOL. Good Luck. ;) fascinating, ive been watching breeds being "improved' and the interpretation of the standards being reinvented for some 40 years "slavish devotion to the stanard' is not what ive been watching as heads get broader n broader or narrower n narrower depending on the fashion of the season n thats just looking the the head, stop before i get carried away

I'm not. think ive already told it before. friend on farm. dogs go off nuts at roo whatever. opens door. tells em to "shut up" fires over their heads if the dins to loud for em to notice him. sooooo one morning, din starts. out he goes, firearm in hand. shouts at dogs. then realises every one is looking in a different direction. looks out across the flat..........................drops firearm................................ retreats indoors. what did he see? over 40 cops in line walking across the flats. fully armed. hes still thanking god he didnt pull the trigger that time. what were they doing? converging on a nearby house. how many saw the headlines about the HUGE gilgandra drug bust?