Dog_Horse_Girl

I'm sorry you feel that I'm providing you with a guilt trip KK, b/c that's not what I'm about. I'm merely reporting the advantages I've seen in feeding a raw, whole foods diet as compared to feeding processed food diets. And I guess that I do encourage everyone with a dog or cat to investigate feeding a raw, whole foods diet, b/c I dislike multinational corporations feeding our pets garbage just to make a buck. It stinks. If your experiences are different, then that's great! We're all here to learn and to share our knowledge, aren't we? I used to feed processed foods (with the occasional "recreational bone") b/c I didn't really investigate the alternatives. Now that I have, and have been successfully feeding whole, raw foods for almost three years, I wish to share what I have learnt (and continue to learn). Why buy processed expensive foods when you can buy whole, fresh foods and know exactly what your dog is eating b/c it's right there in its original form (or close to original in the case of animal parts)? That's my philosophy and that's my bias. But if it doesn't work for a particular dog, then it doesn't work. It's a shame, but what can you do? Obviously you do what's best for the individual dog taking account of all the circumstances that apply. Again, I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I posted. My intention is to show that there are choices out there and how to go about finding alternatives, should a person choose to investigate further.

KitKat I know what's in chicken pet mince as I used to buy it occasionally, but I no longer feed it in preference for raw, meaty bones. Mince does nothing to clean the dog's mouth, thereby negating one benefit of feeding raw, whole foods IMO. Other raw feeders throw in some pet mince with a RMB or feed two meals per day. That's fine too. I just choose a different approach. Sugar, of course it's raw! That's the point, it's not to be cooked, but fed raw. There is a whole stream of thought on raw feeding and there are many different approaches. My approach is to feed raw, whole foods...others feed using BARF patties plus RMBs...others use a prey diet model...others feed mostly RMBs and offal. None is more right or wrong than another and while many start off with BARF, some progress or change to another approach over time. With raw feeding, as long as you've done your research and you keep updated with new information, and as long as you buy top quality ingredients, it's fairly simple and usually inexpensive. The big downside compared to processed is that there IS preparation time and you would do well to have a separate freezer so you can bulk buy your meaty bones, offal, and mince if you feed it. I probably spend a couple of hours a month in meal preparation time. And that includes making the fruit/veg slop, cutting up the larger RMBs to suit all three dogs, repackaging all meat products including offal, and cleaning up the kitchen afterwards. BTW - I'm vegetarian...so the raw meaty bone thing is yuck to me but manageable.

KitKat, firstly I'm so sorry that you have a dog that apparently can't tolerate fresh, whole, raw foods. That's really sad. I've never known a dog that couldn't or didn't do well on whole, raw foods. I've known dogs that couldn't tolerate one particular protein source, for example, or one type of vegetable, but never any dog that can't eat any fresh, whole, raw foods. My goodness, that means that processed foods would likely cause the same trouble if they're using similar ingredients. Secondly, regarding the dental issues with processed, you can't see the foods sticking to the teeth and gums, as it's the residue that is left behind that does the damage in the long-term. Think of kibble the same way you think of a human eating processed foods. While you don't see the actual foods sticking to the teeth some hours after the person eats it, there will be residue left behind and if it's not brushed off, then it will form plaque which then forms tartar. So, for a dog eating processed foods, esp kibbles, this means that the mouth should be brushed daily in order to avoid tartar build-up and gum disease...but in most cases, ppl leave it too long and the dog ends up having to have a GA and get their mouth cleaned and their gums washed out with peroxide or similar. Molly, my chi cross arrived with very dirty teeth b/c the rescue group fed HSD (they rec'd a donation of this "food" so had to use it) and the only thing that got her teeth clean was twice-daily chewing on RMBs - her teeth look normal now! Again, I'm sorry to hear about your dog's food issues - I wonder what else you could have done? Perhaps changed the protein sources? And I do believe that raw is cheaper. Even when I spent $8.50 per kg on white rabbit last weekend, b/c that will feed three dogs four meals. Usually, I don't spend that much, but the rabbit is a treat! I usually only spend about $5/week on RMBs and another couple of bucks on the rest (veg/fruits, sardines/mackerel, yoghurt, etc) b/c I shop well. That feeds one large dog, one medium dog and one tiny dog. I couldn't feed even the cheapest processed for that, assuming that the dogs could tolerate it!

I avoid pet mince but that's b/c I prefer to feed raw, meaty bones. It's better for my dogs. You should be able to bulk buy chicken frames, here they're $6 for 10 kgs. That feeds three dogs 14 meals or so. Not bad. Butchers and supermarkets will often mark their fresh foods down near closing time, as do markets. If you shop close to then, you should find some great prices. Example? I saw marked down lamb's fry today for $1 when it's normally $4 or $5 (depending on weight) and the reason it was marked down is the use by is 22nd Dec. So, you can find bargain foods! I wouldn't feed any processed foods, but that's b/c I've found raw to be far better than cooked. But everyone has to do what they feel is the best thing for their dog/s. My opinion is that fresh is better and less expensive and I've had that proven time and time again.

I believe in feeding raw, whole foods to my dogs to the exclusion of most processed foods/treats/snacks. Why? Because IMO these processed foods are inferior, they contain non-essential additives (preservatives are esp bad IMO, as are colours and flavours...shouldn't a food already taste great???), they make a dog smell bad, they do not clean the dog's mouth and most likely *cause* dental and gum disease b/c they "stick" to the dog's teeth and gums (is that part of the design???), and they're hugely expensive any way you look at it. That is, if you compare the equivalent cost of processed foods to raw foods, weight for weight, you'll find that feeding raw (using top quality human grade foods, organic included!), the raw feeder spends considerably less money than the processed feeder. Then, if you look at how often a dog fed on processed foods is at the vet compared to the raw fed, I think you'd probably conclude that the raw fed dog is considerably less expensive to maintain and stays healthy and happy into old age. The only downside? Sourcing top quality ingredients and preparation of the foods yourself. But wait - I spend an hour every few weeks to a month in preparing veg/fruit slop (and I can put in whatever additives the dogs might need, such as yoghurt, LSA mix) and use whatever human grade ingredients are on sale or cheap b/c they're in season, and I buy the dogs' foods where I shop for our foods (except meat as we're vegetarians), so really, I don't think it "costs" me that much at all. I have no qualms in recommending ppl do their research and make up their own minds. BUT know that you have a much better idea of what is good for your dog than some multinational corporation only concerned with profit-making not the health and wellbeing of your dog. And know that processed pet foods have only been around in recent history - ask your grandparents (if they're still living) what they fed the family dogs and the answer is: meaty bones, table scraps/leftovers, and whatever the dog hunted or scavenged for herself. Dogs are opportunists and in years past, there were ample opportunities for dogs to hunt for some "extra" goodies! Today, we live in such highly urbanised environments that most dogs can't hunt...sadly. I'd love it if my dogs could chase down a wild rabbit or two --- I'm sure it would do them the world of good (not sure about me, though). ;) So, believe the multinational when it says the processed garbage you feed is "complete and balanced" and "all your dog needs (except the unnecessary snacks and treats we also market for huge profits...)" or do your research and take back the ability to feed your dog and feed her well.

Why a raw diet? Firstly, I've never known a dog that can cook! Secondly, it works best for my dogs. Thirdly, it's much less expensive than processed foods. Fourthly, I know exactly what my dogs are eating - I bought it from the grocery store or butcher, I prepared the veg/fruit myself, I use only human grade foods, and I don't add preservatives or colours or flavours (none of these are necessary). Fifthly, dogs have always been fed on raw foods EXCEPT in the last 40-50 years. Why? Because there wasn't such a thing as processed dog foods until the multinational giants realised there was a lot of $$$ to be made from pet owners. Sixth, because I don't want my dogs to be sick, to need their teeth cleaned under GA by the vet, to be more susceptible to cancers, to have constant digestive upsets, or to smell bad from their mouth, coat, and rear end. Raw foods avoid all of these! Seventh, a raw diet can be customised to suit the individual needs of every dog you have in your family and can be changed to suit their changing needs. Some processed foods claim to do this but can't in any meaningful and beneficial way. O-ren, I avoid biscuits. They're processed foods that are not necessary for the dog's wellbeing. If you wish to feed them, then IMO they're virtually all the same in that they're all made of pet quality ingredients and full of things a dog doesn't need. You could make biscuits instead if you are intent on feeding them. Simply google home made dog biscuits recipes and you'll find plenty of suggestions! Sorry to go O/T but the raw question had to be answered.

I feed a totally raw diet, which is why I like EVO for Molly, but she only gets it for breakfast - she gets a RMB-based dinner, the same as the other two dogs!

I use Innova's EVO (raw food in kibble form) and I *love* this product. I usually only give it to Molly b/c she takes so long to eat RMBs but it does the other two dogs as well if I can't do a raw meal from scratch. I don't think it's that expensive. I paid $20 Australian for a 1.5 kg bag, and given that Molly's the dog that eats it, this bag will last a while. I'm trying to source it elsewhere b/c I dislike PP but no luck so far.

Now that's cheap! Will be making a visit to Cardowans too! I think I need a bigger esky...sigh. :rolleyes:

I've seen so many cases where castration of the dog is warranted but hasn't been done. Unfortunately, not everyone with a dog or dogs is as well-educated as us, and not everyone with a dog or dogs cares to keep their dog/s restricted to their property. This (sadly) results in unwanted litters being born every day. Read any classifieds section of a major newspaper, or any online dog site where dogs can be listed for sale or FTGH, and you'll see the results of "voluntary" desexing. ;) I do not think that keeping a pet entire is in the best interests of the dog in question or its future offspring. IMO any dog destined for a home that isn't a registered breeder should be desexed and I make no apology for that stance. If only everyone with a dog was as responsible as some of us, perhaps the need for desexing would be diminished b/c of correct and adequate housing and care of the entire dog/bitch. But there will always be those among the dog-keeping human population that can't or won't be responsible for their dogs. And it's the dogs that suffer, not the humans. Until we have no need for shelters, pounds, lost dogs homes, and selling or giving away "unwanted" dogs, then IMO desexing is the best way of controlling the "unwanted" dog population. :rolleyes: BTW - all my dogs have been desexed as a matter of course. I practice what I preach! And I believe in desexing all pets as one way of reducing the numbers of unwanted animals. I also believe in rescue/rehoming, and obviously that includes all rehomed pets being desexed BEFORE leaving the shelter/rescue/foster carer's home.

I went back to Petbarn today! The dogs will be happy...they have some lamb brisket and some roo...they were out of white rabbit though. Anyway, with us moving in on Thursday, I reckon I'll spend at least some of Friday going between PB, Greenbank, Woolies at Jerra, the two butchers, AND the Fyshwick markets... After all, I have a chest freezer to fill. And I can't believe how CHEAP it all seems to be!

I've just bought some Aloveen shampoo and conditioner for Ruby (the one with the seasonal allergies) and I'm *impressed*. It smells divine, it lathers well, leaves the coat silky soft and smelling lovely without being overpowering. I left the conditioner in and her coat is just wonderful to the touch. I have been told that it will help her skin which is very dry ATM b/c of the allergies. So, to all who posted their Aloveen feedback, thank you!

I'd love to feed pork but both Ruby and Lilly get sick from it. I haven't tried Molly with it yet.

Thanks all. I've got some serious shopping to do to fill the freezer for the dogs (again!). Wow the prices quoted are CHEAP...much cheaper than Melbourne even (and I didn't think that was possible as far as the chicken goes). You're all legends - thanks a bunch.

As some of you know, DH and I (plus the three furkids) have just arrived in the ACT. We move into our house on Thursday! I feed using the BARF philosophy and am seeking suggestions/advice as to where to buy RMBs for the dogs. We'll be living at Harman, just over the border from Q'byn, and Fyshwick or Q'byn are the closest shopping areas to home. I would like to source as wide a variety of bones as possible, plus some muscle meat and organs (heart and liver are the favourites, but will try other organs if they're available). I'd also like to buy rabbit if possible. Where do you shop for your RMBs? All suggestions gratefully accepted! TIA. BTW - chicken, lamb, beef, rabbit, roo are all OK. Pork isn't.

I like the Fido's range: economical, great range, readily available, smell great, lather well...all-round excellent shampoos! They also do conditioners and colour-specific shampoos including white and bright (is fabulous for all colours!). Lilly's coat is just lovely after a bath in the Fido's white and bright. It works well for Ruby and Molly too. It comes down to what suits your dog, your wallet, and where you shop...Fido's is just great for all of those criteria.

Unfortunately, the only place I can find EVO is Pets Paradise. I've tried to get it from another supplier that doesn't sell puppies in their shop, but they don't have the demand for it and won't special order it for me. I really dislike having to support PP, b/c they sell puppies, but when you can only get your special food from it, what else do you do? <sigh> It's generally the only reason I go into PP (and where I usually overhear ppl wanting to buy pups go on about how "cute" said pups are...).

Just to clarify further re: marrow bones, IMO they're OK as an occasional treat if you keep them whole (i.e. if your butcher sells them whole, leave them that way). Frozen bones will take more work. But you must be ready and able to remove the bones once they get past the knuckle portion IMO. The shaft is just not worth them having access to you if are concerned about teeth breakage. Beef backbones are great, but VERY messy! Outdoor feeding is recommended for these bones. The dogs will be occupied for hours...really!

"Higher priced" doesn't necessarily indicate "better quality". I have no idea what HSD sells for, but as a guide, I have a 1.5 kg bag of Innova EVO (raw food in kibble format) that costs $19.95. The analysis of this food is: "Crude Protein (minimum) 42.0%, crude fat (minimum) 22.0%, crude fiber (sic) 2.5% moisture (maximum) 10.0%, linoleic acid (minimum) 4.2%, vitamin E (minimum) 300 IU/kg, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) (minumim) 500mg/kg, omega-3 fatty acids (minimum) .50%, total microorganisms (minimum) 90 000 000 CFL/LB (lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Enterococcus faecium in equal amounts). What this means is that this food is very high in protein and fat, low in fibre and moisture b/c it's not full of cereals and grains like most processed foods, and it is full of naturally occuring omega oils and flora that helps to protect the gut from infection (that's the microorganisms, i.e. yoghurt by-products). The main ingredients are: turkey, chicken, potato, herring, eggs, chicken fat, garlic, apples, carrots and tomatoes, plus some cheese, as well as alfalfa sprouts, chickory root, lecithin, and rosemary. It contains added supplemental vitamins and minerals. For a toy breed, that is a chihuahua or similar that weighs between 1 and 5 kg, you feed between 30 and 90 grams per day. I wonder how HSD stacks up against the above? I'd be very interested to see its statistics and feeding guide. :D

I live as cruelty free as possible, but I thought that would have been obvious b/c we're vegetarian...perhaps only some ppl make the link between shunning meat and animal cruelty? Anyway, I also happen to despise multinationals on many fronts, including human rights abuses, animal welfare/cruelty, and corporate greed. They like to squash the little guy by whatever means is most effective, and the little guy includes other animals too. :D

Marrow bones are OK as an occasional treat - I can't honestly remember the last time my dogs got one, but I do know it was in Cairns (we moved in November/December last year from Cairns to Melbourne). My dogs main staple bones include chicken parts (necks, wings, frames, etc); lamb (neck, shanks, ribs); beef (brisket pieces are GREAT, ribs, tail); roo tail, but no pork (pork makes them sick). Chicken is readily available and cheap and it's not a bad source of protein, but it should make up a smaller percentage of the diet than other types of bones if you're primarily wanting a clean mouth result. Lonsdale is correct about teeth being broken on harder bones. But the point is that you should remove the marrow bone while the "shaft" is still intact. Your dog shouldn't be at the point of breaking that part of the bone, s/he should have gnawed at the knuckle end and cleaned it off, yet the smaller part of the bone (shaft) should be intact or simply devoid of marrow. I hope this helps to clarify. :D

Most vets "recommend" HSD in part b/c they are trained with it, they sell it (and have a vested interest in sales) and they don't educate themselves well enough about canine nutrition. Nutrition is only a very tiny part of the degree in vet science, yet poor nutrition results in so many causes of ill-health that IMO it should attract much more study in the undergrad years. There are many "better" processed foods out there. You just have to do your research if you're so inclined. I feed using a whole, raw foods philosophy, and while you don't have to go that far if you don't feel able, you can feed much higher quality foods than HSD. If you were to visit the establishments that manufacture these foods, and smell the stink, see the animals before and after slaughter, you would understand that many processed pet foods should not be sold at all. The same can be said for many of the "pet mince" products that your grocery shop and butcher sell. The quality of the ingredients (meat, muscle, bone, offal, etc) is too poor to offer optimum nutrition to your dog. A dog might do OK on such a diet, and some dogs seem to do fine. But then again, so many dogs today suffer from bad teeth, gum disease, and develop diabetes, cancer and bad joints...as do people fed on a diet high in processed and preservative-laden foods. If you want to try to provide optimum nutrition, feed using a raw, whole foods philosophy, or at least look for a genuinely super premium processed food. Most of them are difficult to find in this country but some suppliers are finally importing the best of them b/c customers are asking. I hope this helps. :D

I'm probably one of the members that says HSD is garbage and I have no problem in saying why I feel this way: processed foods are not the best (optimum) diet for our dogs. The lower quality foods in particular, and this includes HSD and many other 'vet recommended' processed foods, are full of artificial everything, rancid fats (they're cheap!), preservatives so the food doesn't go bad too quickly after manufacture, are not healthful and do not maintain well-being. I liken the (usually) cheaper and less desirable dog foods including HSD and other kibbles to ppl eating a staple diet of McDonalds or Hungry Jacks. Sure, it will fill you up and give you energy, but it will also provide you with too much saturated fat, insufficient whole foods and lack of nutrition, and be anything but healthy in the long term. If you are planning to continue with a processed food diet, why not aim for something of much higher nutritional quality? It costs more "per bag" than the cheaper and lesser quality foods, but you feed much less of the better quality foods AND your dog will be less sick as a result. IMO feeding the best you can afford actually works out less expensive than feeding a "mid-range" food. I like any of the genuinely super-premium foods, including California Natural, Innova (esp the EVO raw food), and Solid Gold, but unfortunately they're not easy to source in most parts of Australia. Vets sell and recommend what they do b/c they're trained with these products around them. Most vets believe that the products they sell are adequate nutrition and perhaps for some dogs, for some of the time, that's true. But as a feeding solution over the life of your dog, IMO you can (and should) do better. I am biased towards feeding whole, raw foods, for dogs AND people! I do not believe in processed foods for myself, so why would I inflict this style of "food" on my dogs? I do feed using a BARF diet philosophy - I feed myself using the philosophy that humans are designed to eat plant matter NOT animal matter. So, my dogs eat RMBs (raw, meaty bones) as the bulk of their diet, and DH and I eat a vegetarian diet with a slow progression to vegan. Molly is the only dog in my family to eat a "processed" food on a regular basis. And that food is Innova EVO which is a raw food in kibble form. The reason I do this is b/c she's so tiny - - - she has to eat breakfast every day, and if I gave her a RMB, it would take far too long for her to finish the meal. So, she gets EVO for breakfast and a standard BARF dinner. EVO also comes in handy when travelling etc, b/c it's still a raw foods diet, just more convenient. I normally feed BARF even on the road, but it IS more difficult and this time, we'll try the EVO for the one night we're travelling and return to BARF as soon as we arrive in Q'byn. I know it's a long post, but my reasons for objecting to processed foods deserve a reasonable explanation. I'm sure that many ppl and their dogs do OK on processed foods, but food is designed to be healthful and nutritious by nature. Why do ppl think they can do a better job by cooking the heck out of everything, using GM ingredients, raising cattle on other dead animals (cattle are not carnivores!), and there won't be any 'cost' associated with this action? Sorry but at some point, there is a cost. Whether that be mad cow disease, heart disease, cancer, or bird flu, it's a cost. Whether it be the "obesity epidemic" or the "diabetes epidemic", it's a cost. As always, JMHO.

IMO there is something your dog is either ingesting or getting into that doesn't agree with his system. Diet plays a big part in whether a dog smells or not. My dogs don't smell. They're bathed when their coats are dirty (Ruby is the dirtiest and I bath her monthly at most); Molly has only recently arrived and I've just bathed her; Lilly is bathed twice a year or so. If this were my dog, I'd be getting a second opinion about the smell factor AND the diet you feed. HSD is garbage IMO. You can find much better kibbles if you plan to continue feeding this type of food. Perhaps visit some websites that discuss processed pet foods and do some serious research? I hope this helps.

I switched my dogs to BARF more than 2 1/2 yrs ago, and I do not feed minced/ground anything very often. The diet I feed is based on RMBs not patties or mush. IMHO it's the RMBs that make the difference to my dogs' health and their enjoyment of their meals. I feed a small proportion of their diet as veg/fruit slop (two or three meals a week contain this) and ATM they're getting VAN Complete Mix as a substitute b/c we are about to move interstate. I feed a proportion of the diet as offal...about 10-20% over two weeks' meals is a rough guide. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. There are no hard and fast rules except with the foods to avoid. I do not feed 'everything' for every meal. Most meals are RMBs. Some meals include offal. Some include veg/fruit slop or complete mix. Some include yoghurt. Some include egg. And some include canned mackeral or sardines. I read Billinghurst's book and then I experimented with what works. I like to use the bigger bones from bigger animals at least weekly. I try to feed lamb or beef bones at least as often as poultry. Sometimes that's difficult b/c the butcher doesn't always have what I need. ATM they're mostly on poultry but that's due to the move...didn't want to have too much from the butcher left over, so everything is now gone except the poultry.