Dog_Horse_Girl

I have no problem with feeding dog food to dogs per se. It's how the animals are kept that is the problem...do they live in a home environment with regular human interaction? Do they have the freedom of a large yard to run and exercise in? Do they live with a human family and participate in family activities? Would you volunteer your own pet to complete a feeding study for, say, Iams? Well, would you? Come on, let's be realistic. A laboratory cage is NO place for a canine to live out its life. I happen to oppose animal testing b/c it is inherently cruel and for those who are convinced that the "new improved" regime is just fine and dandy, again, why don't you volunteer your own dogs for these experiments? I and others object to the manner in which these "feeding trials" are conducted. Dogs are housed in small kennels with minimal human contact and minimal contact with other canines. Is it acceptable to have dogs confined to a small concrete kennel day in, day out, for many years? Is that humane? Would your dog enjoy living like that? If there is nothing wrong with these feeding trials, why not offer your rescues to these corporations? After all, it's a better life than being on death row in a pound, isn't it? To compare this to boarding kennels is a stretch, to say the least. The average boarding kennel stay is two weeks...the average laboratory stay is probably a *bit* longer than that. The average boarding kennel has the dogs out at least twice-daily for exercise in a grassed yard (sometimes with other dogs too!). The average boarding kennel provides human contact throughout the day...including play time. The average laboratory does not. The average boarding kennel includes activities for the dogs...such as swimming, agility courses, or kongs to empty. The average laboratory does not. The lab dog doesn't have an average dog's life. Most dogs would be better off dead, IMO, than in a laboratory "participating" in a feeding trial. I am not pro-PETA. I am pro-animal welfare. There is a difference. Please remember that no company would freely admit that they treat animals in less than humane ways b/c the resulting publicity would be a potential death knell to its business. But also please remember that just b/c a company once admitted to such horrors, it didn't have any other option but to admit to it. There was irrefutable evidence. To say you believe that this company no longer conducts its trials in such a manner is possibly a little naive...it's not as if the company would readily volunteer such information again, in the absence of firm/concrete evidence, would it? :rolleyes:

I have also heard only great things of Nutro, but as it's not available anywhere but NSW and QLD, it's not an easy product to recommend...perhaps as its distribution grows/expands, I'll be able to recommend it too. Please try to remember that Australians consider many inferior kibbles to be "super premium" such as Nutrience, but ppl in North America do not b/c they have much better kibbles available including the three I recommend when asked. I guess marketing has a lot to answer for...it wasn't that long ago (and sadly this is still the case in many retailers) that something like Iams was touted as "super premium" and something like supercoat was touted as "premium" nutrition. Anyone that is able to understand the nutrition information on these foods is bound to conclude otherwise unless they consider feedlot farmed livestock as being "the best you can get"...organic free-range livestock is far superior from a nutritional perspective, not to mention an ecological or humane perspective. But, hey, if the nutritionally-inferior stuff works for your dog, then why switch to something of a higher quality? BTW - I know I say this often, but only b/c it's true and it should revolt every dog owner in this country - horse meat and by-product is usually the primary protein source in poorer dog foods both canned and kibble. I can't understand how that is acceptable...it's not really suited to the canine's needs but it's cheap and readily available (remember the "wild horse problem"?). This is an issue that needs addressing, and IMO the best way to do that is to stop buying the products that profit from horse culling (and unwanted domestic horses also end up in dog food).

KK, the OP was asking about the "best kibble" so I've provided information relative to that question. IMO the three kibbles I list are the "best kibbles" and the rest are, IMO, not worth feeding to any dog. As always, it's MY opinion on what makes the best kibble...I happen to have done extensive research on canine nutrition and on how to understand the packaging on the bag...and I've come to the conclusion that a dog fed on an average kibble just isn't going to be as healthy over its lifespan as one fed on a super-premium diet and/or a raw, whole foods diet. I liken this to human nutrition: how many ppl eat only (say) McDonalds foods? How healthy are these ppl assuming they exist? And compare that to someone who eats a balanced diet of whole foods with the occasional indulgence? If my advice is offensive to you, then don't read it any more! You know my stance, or should by now...my bias is to raw, whole foods and failing that, the three USA-manufactured kibbles that I recommend. I'm not pushing anyone into anything either, I'm simply offering my advice/opinion as sought. I would no sooner feed certain dog foods to my dogs than I would to myself. Why? Because they are very poor in terms of the nutrition they offer and the quality of ingredients they use. Why feed a crap food when you can feed a superior food? B/c you don't know any different...or you don't care to find out about a better food. I have no problem with you disagreeing with my opinion, but perhaps you could add the disclaimer that tells everyone which dog food manufacturer employs you... I also have to say that it's a false economy to buy a cheaper (purchase price) kibble, b/c in the long term you are feeding a whole lot more of the cheaper one compared to the better foods. And your dog isn't going to do as well either.

So which dog food manufacturer do you work for? I've forgotten which brand it is you represent...

There are more ethical ways of testing foods on dogs and cats. IMHO a laboratory is not a lifestyle choice for a companion animal...I'm sure we are all dog-lovers who wouldn't volunteer our own dogs or our rescue dogs for laboratory feeding trials. These dogs have minimal contact with humans and virtually no stimulation b/c they're kept caged for much of their lives. I liken this to battery hens and I also oppose the keeping of any animal in a cage that is not large enough to offer reasonable comfort levels to the animal in question.

Have you tried Eagle Pack's Holistic range? I have no personal experience with it, but I know many ppl with greyhounds (notorious for their digestive issues) use it as a "last resort" option with great success. I reckon it's worth a try if you can get a sample bag. Go for one of the higher protein formulations...I hope this helps.

Oh, really? I don't think they're any different, they just hide it better these days.

Coprice dog food? IMO you might as well feed boiled rice and chicken feathers...that's basically what Coprice puts in its kibble...JMO. IMO there are many superior kibbles available...please research your choices more thoroughly before changing to a food even more inferior than supercoat...your dog/s deserves the best food you can possibly buy.

What is its URL? I can't find it... If this Pet Goods Direct is also owned by the Bates family (PP) then I won't buy from it either. BTW - now feeding Molly (breakfast only) on Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formula and she's doing great! I reckon PP can get stuffed! And Natura can keep its exclusive deal b/c I've got a food that's just as good if not better. Bugger off Pet's Paradise...we don't like you, we don't want you, and we don't need you! Your policies on buying and selling animals stink and we end up with the results...poorly bred animals dumped in shelters once their families realise what a problem they've bought. Shame on you and your "breeders". Shame.

I've been telling ppl this for years, and still they don't believe me. I oppose ANY and ALL forms of experimentation on animals b/c they cannot possibly give informed consent...the only exception is to treat a specific animal (individual) with a specific treatment for a specific condition when every available (existing) treatment has failed and the experimental one *might* change the outcome for the animal in question. Wholesale animal experimentation is WRONG in any guise.

As I said, the Dick van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formula is NOT the same as the Australian-manufactured "Natural Balance". The Aussie-made one is no better than many other "cheap" kibbles available here...avoid them in preference for the USA-manufactured genuinely super-premium kibbles. Or choose a cheaper food and be forced into feeding a lot more product and seeing the vet more often that you'd care to. JMHO. BTW - some breeders' recommendations are appalling...HSD, Iams/Eukanuba, Bonnie Working Dog, Corprice..to name but a few poor quality choices often spouted as "excellent" by breeders. edited for typos...

There are only three kibbles I can recommend and all are imported from the USA. They are: 1. Innova (EVO is my choice b/c it's raw). 2. Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formula...not to be confused with a locally-manufactured product called simply "Natural Balance"...I wonder how long before the original asks for an injunction re: the name of the product. 3. Eagle Pack Holistic range. Why? B/c the USA doesn't allow any horse meat or by-products into their pet foods. B/c the ingredients used are superior in quality and are usually organic. B/c the foods themselves are natually preserved not artificially. B/c you feed a lot less of these foods. B/c your dog will use everything in the food b/c it's ALL food. If you want an average performance, go for an average food. But if you want healthy pups that grow at the prescribed rate, that thrive, that are in great condition, then use the better foods. JMO. :rolleyes:

My "dog friends" in the USA are horrified that Australians consider things like Iams, HSD, RC, and Nutrience as "super premium" b/c they're definitely NOT when you compare the ingredients and nutritional information. A few years ago, Nutrience was the "best" kibble available here...now we do have access to top quality kibbles that will cost less money over the life of the dog when you factor in reduced illness, feeding quantities (higher quality kibble = lower daily feed amount), etc. I understand that not everyone thinks they can afford the best kibbles, but IMO, if you want to feed a processed diet, the best is the only way to go b/c the others are full of crap. It's JMO and experience...but I've tried all types of dog foods over more than 20 years, and I have to say that the best results come from the best foods, and the worst results come from the rest.

KitKat, Innova is now available at another supplier and I posted that info here a week or so ago... My opinion of Australian made kibbles is that they're not acceptable, partly b/c they use horse meat and by-products...and the other important factor is the source of the "good quality" ingredients...most kibbles don't, for example, use organic ingredients. I believe that Australian made products can't compare to the three products I've listed and I recommend them based on experience (except the EP b/c I haven't yet used it). I believe in feeding dogs a diet as close to "natural" as possible. I do not believe that a dog needs to eat artificial colours, flavours or preservatives, nor that they need to eat rancid oils/fats. And sadly, all of these things are present in locally made foods *in abundance*. Royal Canin and Advance are NOT super premium kibbles if you compare them to the three I have listed. Have a good look at the ingredients lists and the nutritional information. I've also posted that info for both EVO and DVP's Natural Balance Organic Formula. Have a look in this forum for that and compare that data to the labels on RC or Advance. I feed raw, whole foods to my dogs. With the exception of Molly, who is also fed on either EVO or DVP's NBOF b/c of her size and the time it takes her to eat a raw meal in the mornings (we don't have time in the mornings so I feed her processed then). It is also an "emergency" food for the other two dogs. I am happy for ppl to critique my choices and/or recommendations if they have data to present for comparison...please feel free to do so! I hope this helps the OP and anyone else interested in high-quality nutrition for their dog/s. BTW, I also believe in feeding myself a high quality whole foods diet. But I do allow myself the occasional treat! BL, yes, you can wean pups from dam to raw, meaty bones.

While I haven't raised a litter, I wouldn't be feeding a canine using cow's milk or any lactose-laden product, nor would I be feeding a canine using grains or cereals. A canine doesn't need these things and cannot easily digest them. You'd be far better to purchase a genuine "super premium" kibble (Royal Canin and Advance are best described as mid-range kibbles not super premium). I would avoid any made here in Australia. I recommend three kibbles (I feed a raw foods diet and avoid processed foods for my dogs but I do have one dog that gets processed for breakfast b/c she's so slow at eating raw). They are: Innova EVO (very good food, raw not cooked) Dick van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formula (not to be confused with "Natural Balance" which is made in Australia and is inferior in every way to the original which is made in the USA) Eagle Pack Holisitic range. I hope this helps. BTW - you can begin feeding pups on raw meaty bones when they are still very young...at about the time they begin weaning from the dam, you can introduce chicken wings or necks. They *love* them and do really well on raw foods.

I've been feeding raw, whole foods to my dogs for a long time and I wouldn't bother with the pre-packaged stuff, it's just too expensive. Do it yourself using raw, meaty bones, offal and fruit/veg slop with the occasional serve of yoghurt and sardines. Read any good book on raw feeding. It will encourage you to research and experiment once you know what your dog/s need.

Try a search b/c I know I've answered this question many times recently as have others.

In theory, you're correct as to the duty of care. BUT if they were very busy or runing late, they might have weighed up the pros and cons of keeping ppl waiting while they thoroughly cleaned the consult room. Having said that, I'd be more than happy to wait while this is done, and IMO the clinic or vet should offer to treat the subsequently sick dog/s free of charge. As I wasn't there, I can't speculate...but this is what I would expect from my vet clinic.

Sure. EVO Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (minimum) 42.0%, Crude Fat (min) 22.0%, Crude Fibre (maximum) 2.5%, Moisture (max) 10.0%, Linoleic Acid (min) 4.2%, Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg, Ascorbic Acid (Vit C) (min) 500mg/kg, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.50%, Total Microorganisms (min) 90,000,000 CFU/LB. Calorie Content: Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 4243 cal/kg, 537 cal/cup, 1 cup = 4.40 oz (124g). DVP's Natural Balance Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min) 22%, Crude Fat (min) 13%, Crude Fibre (max) 4.5%, Moisture (max) 10%, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 2.6%. NB is made using only certified organic ingredients. I hope this helps.

That's why I try to remember to provide the website OR the entire name of the product I recommend, which is Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance. This product is made in the USA...not Australia. I do not recommend any Australian made/manufactured foods b/c I do not believe any of them are worth buying. I know it's confusing with two products that have similar names...but as I keep saying, I only recommend foods made outside of Australia due to the quality of the ingredients and the nature of the ingredients used. So, repeating my recommendations based upon personal experience and personal preference and given that I feed my dogs on raw, whole foods (except Molly who gets processed for breakfast and raw for dinner)...they are: 1. Innova EVO. 2. Dick van Patten's Natural Balance. 3. Eagle Pack Holistic. As far as I'm aware, all three are available in Australia and all three are imported from the USA where they are manufactured. If that changes, then my opinion of the food/s may also change. I hope this helps.

Innova EVO is made by Natura Pet Products. Their site is www.naturapet.com. Natural Balance is made by Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formulas Inc. Their site is www.naturalbalanceinc.com. Natural Balance "is commited to helping animals by donating to local animal charities". They also use only organic ingredients. :rolleyes:

I'm pleased to read this feed back b/c I only recommend three kibbles to anyone looking to switch foods. The ones I recommend (two from personal experience) are: 1. Innova EVO (raw food) 2. Natural Balance 3. Eagle Pack Holistic (haven't used it yet but hoping to find it locally). I only feed processed occasionally to our two bigger dogs b/c they're raw fed. Molly is my tiny dog that has to have processed for breakfast b/c she's a very slow eater. Glad to hear of another success with EPH. :rolleyes:

In this situation, there is only one food I could recommend, which is Innova EVO. It's made with no cereals, no grains, no artificial colours/flavours and no preservatives. It's a raw food. It's available at Pet's Paradise nationally (a chain I do not support b/c they sell live animals) and has just been made available through: Pet Goods Direct 03 9727 4933. It's not cheap but that's b/c of the quality. You'd be looking at approx $20 for a 1.5 kg bag. There are other excellent foods out there, but sadly, none are yet available in Australia (there are two others I could recommend, but both are cooked...maybe worth a shot if you can get samples?). They are: Dick van Patten's Natural Balance AND Eagle Pack Holistic. I hope this helps. BTW - raw feeder here too.

If you're feeding a processed diet to your dog, IMO its residue sticks to the teeth b/c there is nothing to scrape it off...a dog cannot clean its teeth using kibble IMO, b/c there is no gnawing or ripping. The ripping and gnawing is what helps clean the tooth surface, I think I said that in a previous post? Dogs are obviously individuals. If you have two dogs that are fed the exact same diet, drink the same amount of water in a 24 hour period, exercise the same, have the same action when chewing the same bones, etc, etc, then the difference could be genetic. Perhaps if you have one dog with relatively bad teeth you could brush them twice a day? I know many ppl that do this b/c they're too frightened to feed their dogs raw bones...they'd rather spend an hour a day cleaning their dogs' teeth with toothpaste designed for dogs, and put solutions in their drinking water "to reduce plaque"...I suppose they must have a lot of money. Me? I'd prefer to let their food clean their teeth! It's worked so far...even for my dear old Aussie (now at the Bridge), I'd give him raw bones regularly but he was fed processed as a staple...his teeth were pretty good (except one that was rotten from an early age).

I only use valium (for my dogs! ) at vet recommendation...and usually only for car travel for my car sickness girl, but sometimes to help her cope with a really bad storm (have used it for this once b/c we had a lot of storms and she was getting very distressed even with the DAP). But only on the advice of my vet.