Dog_Horse_Girl

Do you disagree then that baby pups need three or four regularly-spaced meals per day? Do you disagree then that following meals a baby pup must be taken outside to toilet? Because everything I've ever learnt, from vets, breeders, shelters, and rescue groups, is that [weaned] baby pups (that is, pups aged between 8wks and 16 wks) need those two things from their owners. If said owner is at work for 10 hours, five days per week, I can't see how that person can deliver those things to their baby pup without someone else caring for the animal as well. With human babies, it's close to the same thing, isn't it? A baby human requires regularly-spaced meals per day, and also requires regular nappy changes following those meals...the main difference is that newborn humans require this care around-the-clock for a little longer than do baby pups. I'm not sure if there are other valid comparisons though, do you? So perhaps if someone is away from home for 10 hours per day, they could reverse their pup's schedule so that the animal is fed and toileted during the night, and the pup is left to its own devices through the day? Do you think that would work? Or perhaps not feeding the pup those extra meals isn't really necessary and the people I've consulted over the years have not been telling me the truth?

Stacey, I don't think you'd be breaking restrictions by filling a wading pool. If you are then so am I! I've got two clam shell halves and I fill one with water a couple of times a week so the dogs can paddle. Have you got somewhere to suspend filled Kongs from, such as a pergola or sturdy tree branch? Even a strong clothesline will take the strain from a dog trying to remove the filling from an upside-down kong...just above head height means a LOT of work! :p A digging pit is also excellent...put some cooked chicken or some cabanossi in the sand (the night before...just make sure it's after their last turn out for the night ) along with some squeaky toys...and other goodies. This will keep them occupied for a while too. As for your neighbours, why not door-knock at the weekend and just ask everyone for their help in stopping this "problem barking". Ask each of them to keep a record for you so that you can work in some solutions and ask them to be a little patient because you rescue dogs from the pound and *sometimes* this can upset the pack order for a little while as the rescue dog settles in. If all else fails, try borrowing a citronella collar or more than one from ARF...I think we have them available for fosters, might also help to use them on Orson and Oi if you think it's your two barking. HTH. :D

Zorro is a greyhound puppy isn't he? If so, you're describing completely normal GH pup behaviour. The remedies? LOTS of exercise - walks two or three times a day as a minimum. LOTS of interactive toys - Kongs, Buster Cubes, any toy suspended from a strong branch or pergola filled with peanut butter. PUPPY-PROOF completely - nothing is sacred to a GH puppy. CONFINE him when you can't supervise - baby gates, crates and ex-pens will become your best friends, believe me! HTH.

I leave home at 7.45 am and am last in the household to leave. The first person home arrives at 4.15 pm. That means our dogs are without human company for eight and a half hours, give or take a few minutes for traffic delays. I had planned to take a job that's two minutes walk from home but I rec'd a better offer...if I needed to in my current job, I could come home at lunchtime to attend to a pup. But I don't have any pups in my care and usually only foster adult dogs. Our dogs and fosters are all OK to be left for this amount of time. BUT they're all conditioned to it via 'alone training' and they have each other for company. Ruby and Lilly are left together (we used to separate all our dogs but have found they prefer to be together and we've had no nasty incidents as yet so will continue unless a major fight happens). I leave Molly and Piper together but separated by a baby gate b/c Piper can play too roughly and I won't take a chance that Molly could get hurt. They have company in a safe and controlled way. IF I chose to take on a pup, I would only do so if it was appropriate to my daily work schedule - that is, if I could take a break in the middle of the day every day for as long as the pup needed this to occur. As this isn't guaranteed b/c I'm a contractor, I simply won't consider taking a rescue puppy but would always consider a grown dog.

Curious, I could care less if people disagree with my opinions b/c everyone is entitled to believe certain things to be true/correct/right for them. I respond to what people say is relevant to them and/or their pups or dogs, and in this case, a baby pup should not be left for ten hours at a time b/c they require frequent meals and toilet breaks. Not to mention someone to check on them in case of illness - a baby pup can 'crash' and die literally in a matter of hours if it gets certain conditions such as parvo virus or a severe allergic reaction...if nobody is checking on a pup for 10 hours, that's a whole lot of risk IMO. I certainly wouldn't be prepared to take such a risk and to that end, I would make arrangements to take breaks from work in order to check on and feed/toilet a pup - if this wasn't possible, then I simply wouldn't take on a baby pup but a grown dog. And that's what my husband and I have done in adopting adult dogs rather than baby pups b/c we couldn't meet a pup's needs in that respect. I do believe in what goes around comes around, but in a positive way rather than what is implied by your post, which could be taken as offensive and I'm sure you don't mean to be offensive. Perhaps you just expressed your thoughts poorly? In terms of baby pups being left alone, as is the topic of this thread, every vet I've ever consulted about this has indicated that a baby pup needs at least three meals per day, evenly spaced over time. It follows that the baby pup will need to go to the toilet shortly thereafter. If a person acquires/purchases/adopts a baby pup, then it follows that they must be at home (or wherever place the pup is kept 'normally') to feed that animal and to take it outside to toilet. I have a few questions for those with pups that need three feeds or more per day where the pup is left alone for 10 hours: Who is feeding and toileting this pup? And at what time intervals does this feeding and toileting take place? Is the pup fed the required number of meals per day as separate meals, or do you feed more than one serve/meal at a time to compensate for the lack of time interval in the intervening period? I'm really trying to understand how this can be OK to the people that have been consulted before such pups were acquired...it just doesn't 'sit right' with me.

Don't you think a baby animal is different to an adult animal? Don't you think a baby animal has needs that differ from the needs of an adult animal? So, if we follow your logic, then a baby human animal is also no different to an adult human animal? That's frightening to me, to be honest here.

Have some people missed the fact that this thread is about leaving a BABY PUP alone for apparently 10 hours at a time? IMO (in my opinion) that's just not OK. But again, I stress for those that haven't apparently picked up, this is my opinion and what I would do with a pup in my care...I would NOT leave a baby pup alone for 10 hours at a time on a regular or frequent basis. For those of you that think this is perfectly acceptable, that's YOUR opinion and we are each entitled to hold AND express those opinions - this is a public message board after all, isn't it?

LilyW we are discussing pups here, not dogs as you've stated. Pups are babies and as such, need regular attention during the daytime hours when young. This includes feeding a mid-day meal and allowing the pup to toilet. Pups are usually fed to a schedule rather than "free fed" that is, where a bowl of dry food is left constantly for the pup to eat as s/he feels hungry. IMO even a grown dog should not be "free fed" b/c if the dog is sick, one of the first symptoms is loss of appetite. IMO young pups need to be attended to as they are growing and leaving any young animal for 10 hours at a time is just too long. If you don't have any problems with your particular pup, then IMO you are very fortunate (as is the pup). Being involved in rescue, I do see the poorly-treated dogs which you mention that we should be focussing on rather than pups left alone for 10 hours a day (presumably this is also five days per week?). I am a proponent of animal welfare, and as such, I cannot ever condone a baby puppy being left alone for 10 hours per day except as an unavoidable situation such as a genuine emergency. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to express that on a public forum. Of course, some people will disagree with that, but that's up to them. I feel sorry for any baby pup left alone for more than six hours at a time b/c I feel this is not reasonable. A *dog* OTOH, can be trained to manage lengthy absences but a *puppy* just shouldn't be expected to do so. JMHO.

Sas I read and comprehended what you posted. You still haven't answered my questions but that's OK.

What is "too broad" in saying a "small inside dog"??? Sure, some dogs are fine in the yard during the day. Labs, goldens, kelpies, sibes...as just four examples. But this dog is a baby miniature dachshund - and it clearly hasn't enjoyed its time outside even with its owner present. Without being there to see what's happening, it's not possible to speculate too keenly, but IMO this pup is unhappy when outside and is expressing that unhappiness by whining. Do you disagree with the pup's attempts at communication? I'm not "humanising" anything. I'm saying that dogs are social creatures, hence their need for companionship. Where do you think I'm "humanising" this? I'd really like you to be specific here if you don't mind. I don't think it's acceptable for you to claim I'm being broad in my response when you are doing exactly that yourself.

Ok thanks next thing lol when i do go outside and try play with her she runs straight to the back door and cries to go inside That's b/c she doesn't want to be outside, at a wild guess. Why do people adopt or purchase a small, inside dog and then expect it to go outside without a fuss? These sorts of dogs are people-focussed house pets, not indepdendent outdoor dwellers. Your dog is telling you this is the case and yet you want to go against that? My dogs range from a greyhound to a mini fox terrier x chihuahua and all of them are indoor dogs. That's b/c dogs are social creatures that need companionship - hence the relationship between dogs and people or dogs and dogs. If you expect a dog to be outside without you, then expect the dog to be a little unhappy with that arrangement. JMO.

Oh, dear...a ten week old puppy home alone for ten hours a day...is that five days per week? What part of the world are you in, b/c in some places leaving a baby pup outside for that length of time is NOT a good plan. A pup is not able to regulate their body temperature as easily as a grown dog. That's just the first problem you may face. The next is that ten hours is a VERY long time even for a grown dog. I leave my dogs for a maximum of 8 hours, but usually it's not that long b/c we have someone home much earlier than me. I am changing jobs so will be able to come home for lunch every day. That means my dogs will be alone for only four hours or so at a stretch (lucky them!). A pup needs to learn toilet training, which is more difficult if you're leaving him outside through the day. How will he know not to go to the toilet indoors? A pup needs to eat three meals a day until four to six months of age, which means breakfast, lunch and dinner. How will this be managed? A pup needs to be monitored in case of illness, as young pups can go down VERY fast. What happens if he gets sick while you're at work? Did you think that your pup would be alone for this length of time before you adopted him? Did you make the breeder aware of this, and what did they advise you if they were aware? One toy (Kong, BTW) is nowhere near enough to keep a pup or dog amused and stimulated for ten hours. I would think you need to turn your yard into a doggie amusement park for that sort of absence if it's more than one or two days a week. Best of luck, I hope it works out for you.

I don't know of a central place that keeps this info, but for RSPCA (for example) it publishes its stats on the website. It's approx 50% of dogs they take in and more than that for cats. Surely this info would be available from individual councils somewhere? Perhaps the State gov't depts responsible for local gov't also keep such stats together? But if you ask me, they don't want to make such information *too public* b/c then they'd have to deal with the backlash...the pounds aren't to blame here, the dog owners are.

That's my point. That's what we're up against here. Most people with a dog are just like you describe above, rather than just like many of us here on DOL (responsible and motivated dog owners/lovers that do the right things by their dog/s). How else can any of us explain the HUGE numbers of unwanted dogs in our community? I dont know that I necessarily agree with you. I think you might be biased a bit from the fact that you see the worst that can happen every day.... If we say that every 3rd household has at least one dog (I think these are the stats and probably more than one) and how many people in Australia vs how many dogs being PTS each year...... I hope you are wrong...... Anyhow lets assume that whoever is asking questions on DOL is probably not one of them... I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. Our ACT pound can house well over 50 dogs at a time and it's usually full. They're required to keep strays 8 days but can euth surrenders sooner. At the ACT shelter, the waiting list for surrenders is between 3 and 6 mths and it receives calls every day from dog owners as to how to 'get rid of' their unwanted dogs - the shelter can house approx double what the pound can house. I've seen three dogs to a cage at both places and have seen the numbers of dogs in the places continue to climb. This year has been particularly bad in this area for unwanted dogs. But it's fairly typical IMO. Then there's the other pound just over the NSW border, plus the two nearest councils further out (2 pounds) - which take fewer dogs but there again, it's rural so many dogs are likely shot by farmers protecting stock or are hit on the roads or are poisoned by fox bait. As for the person asking the question, I think I've already said that given DOL is a public forum, we have to assume there will be a wide range of people reading here, including those that aren't very responsible for whatever reasons/s...and its to these people most precisely that my answers are directed towards. If I can get JUST ONE person to understand how important it is to desex their companion dog (pet), then that directly helps ONE DOG. And if that one person tells just one person, the message grows from there. BTW - there are between 10-30 dogs in urgent need just in one pound in this area every week. That is dogs about to be destroyed b/c they haven't been either claimed or sold from the pound...that's where rescue hopefully steps in. It's just that we can't save them all. And I wish we didn't have to, but it is what it is. For a city of around 300 000 people, even 30 dogs destroyed per week in ONE pound is too many. But IMO just one dead dog is one too many when it's easily prevented if people would just desex their dogs. So many people get a 'free dog' from a newspaper ad...but that free dog came from somewhere...a sexually entire bitch...that probably got dumped at the pound after having her pups. Those pups won't be desexed, which just adds to the problem...and so on it goes.

Yep, that may be true...but the vast majority of impounded dogs that end up needing rescue aren't desexed. Our rescues come from pounds run by councils/LGAs...many of these dogs are sexually entire...so I'm not sure that responsible people necessarily desex their pets nor do they necessarily register them with council. I have heard that many people that don't register their dog/s b/c they can't be bothered or b/c they don't want to pay a fee or b/c they don't want council to know how many dogs they have b/c they're over the set maximum allowed. And if only 70-80% of council registered dogs are desexed, why isn't that figure (for pets) higher? Shouldn't it be close to 100% if these people are law-abiding and responsible dog owners?

That's my point. That's what we're up against here. Most people with a dog are just like you describe above, rather than just like many of us here on DOL (responsible and motivated dog owners/lovers that do the right things by their dog/s). How else can any of us explain the HUGE numbers of unwanted dogs in our community?

And the point is that this is a public forum, with many guests that aren't necessarily "responsible" enough to manage an entire animal in an appropriate way. Breeders and show people are generally what I would consider "responsible" but the 'average person with a dog' isn't a breeder or showie and hasn't got that level of expertise and knowledge, do they? My responses are directed at the 'average person with a dog' rather than a breeder or showie b/c as I said, most of the breeders and showies have sufficient knowledge...whereas the OP didn't identify herself as a breeder, showie, rescuer, or 'average person with a dog' so I suppose my responses were shaped accordingly. If every person with a dog is responsible for that dog, then I can't understand why there are so many dogs and pups in pounds and shelters and rescues - can anyone please explain how that happens? And can anyone also explain why the vast majority of impoundees are also sexually entire? Of the dogs that I've fostered, exactly NONE were already desexed (prior to coming into care). To put it another way, each foster dog I've had was sexually entire and it was up to the rescue group to arrange for desexing before the dog was re-homed. I wonder if someone could explain that as well? If it wasn't for these animals being impounded, then I have little doubt that each of them would have reproduced at least once. A bitch in season, "at large" (wandering the streets without a human), I doubt it would take long for an entire male (or several) to mate with her. We also seem to have a number of bitches coming into care already pregnant - many shelters that rehome directly also have this experience. In some cases of early pregnancy, the bitch is speyed, but in cases where it's too advanced, the bitch whelps and then the foster carer has a litter of pups AND a bitch to look after. I guess these cases aren't planned matings or pregnancies, or the owner would be at the pound in a flash to claim their dog. A pregnant bitch, where the mating was planned and the litter desirable, isn't going to be left languishing in a pound cage, is she? edit for typo

"Physical restraint" means having the animal on a lead fastened to a properly fitting collar or harness. That's how I manage a bitch in season when it has happened to an animal in my care. In doing this, it's much harder for her to escape than if I just let her outside. "Watching" from a window, IMO isn't going to prevent a bitch from jumping a fence if she's motivated enough to do that. Having said that, if it works for you and the particular dog in question, that's great. I'm hardly going to do anything that's potentially cruel to a dog...nor do I make such suggestions to others. I also use crates as needed to confine a dog that's just come into care...for transporting in the car...for recovery from surgery...again, that's not a practice I see as being cruel to the dog and is in common usage in many parts of the world including Australia. If I wasn't able to crate sometimes, I couldn't rescue certain types of dogs at all.

If you're involved or have been involved in rescue then I'm very surprised you came to a public forum to ask the question you have posted here. Surely you would know that discussing the options with your trusted vet and if needed, getting a second opinion, is what works best for you and your dog? If my vet advised me to wait until after the first season before speying, I'd be asking a lot of questions of that vet...then I'd most likely find another vet to bounce the first one's ideas off. Had you said that your bitch is housed indoors and is only allowed outside under physical restraint when in season, perhaps that information would have provided you with different responses. But I responded based on what was posted...I know my sixth sense is good, but it's not perfect! And I also post responses that keep in mind other users (guests esp) that may not know very much about dogs but are here to learn, and if my response was to keep a bitch entire for a given time period after she was capable of reproducing, I wonder how many other people would take that to mean "never get her desexed"? I'd say a fair few of them based on the responses my opinion has generated...people don't read things properly or absorb the information adequately!

Didn't you just read what I said in regards to the 'average' person vs the more responsible owner? Gee, the simple fact remains that for companion dogs (which make up the vast majority of owned dogs in Australia as far as I can tell), it's far safer to desex than not...and again, it is just my opinion and my experience (again, I think I stated that). But misrepresent what I've said if it helps you. Do you consider yourself to be a responsible dog owner? Do you consider yourself a well-informed and well-educated one? Then what I've said doesn't apply to you, again I think I stated that. I also said I was aiming my response to the average owner that may not have much of an idea about when to desex or even why to desex. And yes, many poundies are crossbred dogs, but they have to have come from two sexually entire animals and in many cases, the parent animals are each a purebred dog - in many other cases, at least one parent is a purebred animal. But again, don't let that sway anyone's opinion for or against desexing companion dogs, eh? I believe that companion dogs should be desexed. I believe that after vet advice, it is safer to spey a bitch BEFORE her first season rather than AFTER it. If I have the choice, it's done before...but as I adopt RESCUE dogs, sometimes that isn't possible. And as I also rescue when I have the space, in the majority of cases the bitches are entire when they are impounded - so does that perhaps help you to understand that the less responsible owners are less inclined to have their animals desexed? Do you keep a show dog or a companion dog? Does the OP keep a show dog or a companion dog b/c I thought they were referring to a companion dog...please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW - are you involved in rescue PF? Most groups can always use more foster carers and volunteers for all sorts of events - there are far too many dogs that STILL don't make it out alive, it saddens me as much as it angers me!

Hmm, I gathered from the way you speak of the behaviour of entire dogs, that you must be a breeder of many years experience, who has great knowledge and insight into the behaviour of entire dogs of both sexes. Guess I was wrong. For the record, my entire bitches get frisky when in season, but have never tried to escape or dig their way out. Neither have I have had male dogs attempting or succeeding in scaling my fences. And, I live in suburbia. It only takes a bit of common sense to manage a bitch in season, and the people who come to this forum seeking information do not deserve to beaten around the head with what YOU (LM) believe to be the right thing for them to do. Please let them read and learn, and then make their own decisions, rather than coming at everybody with a "desex immediately" attitude. No, I suppose my experience in dog rescue doesn't cut it for you, eh? I don't suppose you're confronted daily by the numbers of unwanted dogs and pups in the pounds and shelters that end up dead and at least some of these were because someone didn't manage their entire bitch or dog appropriately. When people ask the question here about desexing, and when they indicate that the advice they have conflicts with what they already know, I conclude from that limited information that they're looking for an 'average person' answer, rather than an answer aimed at a registered breeder, or someone that has a thorough knowledge of dog management including the management of entire animals. I may not have been involved in rescue and foster for a long time - which is true - but being confronted by other people's cast-offs does entitle me to become angry and sad that there are so many thoughtless people in our society that either can't or won't manage their dog/s appropriately, and therefore they're contributing to the unwanted dog problem due to their lack of action. When someone asks for opinions about desexing, I give mine. My position is that unless you're a registered breeder, there is NO reason to keep a sexually entire companion dog, so why on earth do it? I've had dogs for close to 40 yrs, each and every one of them was desexed as soon as practical and under VET advice as to the timing of the surgery. The advice used to be "wait for a season before spey" but that's out-of-date according to MANY vets today. Sure, there are still some that advocate such a position, but they're becoming fewer and further between. IMO that's a good thing. I don't believe in desex immediately IF the owner is responsible. But if every owner was responsible, how does that explain the large number of dumped and straying dogs that are impounded every single day? Hmmmm...can't be just by chance now, can it? I would rather see people desex their dogs young than be picking up the pieces of yet another accidental litter. There's nothing worse than seeing dogs on death row and knowing you can't possibly help them and that they WILL DIE today or tomorrow. Young, healthy beautiful dogs that don't deserve to die. Yet someone was "responsible" for their existence in this world at some point. I respect registered breeders and the work they do to improve their chosen breeds. But the average dog owner, the one that waits to desex b/c they haven't gotten around to it yet, or b/c they don't think it's that important, or b/c they're following well-meaning but misleading advice (for their situation) is the one that I aim my responses towards b/c I know there are LOTS of visitors to this forum and not all of them are responsible, well-informed, well-educated dog owners.

Lillysmum, out of curiousity, how many entire dogs, especially bitches on heat, have you had to manage in your own yard? Two - except that they were both kept indoors through their seasons. So, the more accurate answer to your question would be zero, b/c I knew enough to NOT leave them "in [my] own yard." It's just that too many people think it's perfectly fine to leave a bitch in season in the yard...which isn't advisable IMO. Does that help?

If you mean wander the neighbourhood, it doesn't necessarily mean that the owner has "allowed" them to wander. A bitch in season will escape situations where ordinarily it would be highly improbable. Just as importantly, an entire male will scale even colourbond fences to get to a bitch on heat. It comes down to a dog's basic instinct when discussing a bitch in season, and IMO it's not a risk I'd ever take by leaving an entire bitch outside when in season as many people seem to do even these days. Not only that, but what about the increased risk of mammary tumours (cancerous ones at that?) by speying after the first season? This particular cancer is likely to be preventible if the bitch is speyed before her first season. I've spoken to people who thought their yard was escape-proof, yet they've come home to find their dog is missing - it's not likely that a person has taken the dog b/c access gates are locked from the inside. On closer questioning, I've found their dog is still entire...perhaps that is coincidence, perhaps not.

The idea that a bitch needed to have a season before speying is archaic and has no place in today's dog management IMO. The risk of delaying the spey surgery until after a season has come and gone is just not worth taking. Your vet today is correct: spey earlier if possible. IMO 6-8 mths is too old for some breeds but I see so many unwanted dogs and pups in the pounds b/c somebody thought they could wait to spey their bitch...IMO spey as soon as you can. An unwanted pregnancy can happen too easily IMO and what would you do? Spey and abort? Allow her to whelp? Raise the pups? Then what? Try to rehome them? Nope, spey sooner if you can. JMO.

Molly has a broken tail...it's close to the end and the tail kinks into an 'L' shape. It doesn't bother her, never has, and likely never will. As we don't know her history, we can't know how it happened, but I suspect a littermate or her dam stepped on it when she was a baby pup. If it was giving her any problems, I'd have it rectified, but there's nothing wrong with it other than it looks a little 'odd'. I actually like it b/c it gives her some extra character! ;)