Latisha

I also would like to say a huge thankyou to Julie, Andrew & Pat for once again showing their expertise in the field. I still get gobsmacked at how efficient the dogs are at their work and the amazing handlers. Also, a big thanks to M-J for organising everything. You did a fantastic job! A massive thanks also to Winterpaws for the ride and company and Gilbear for the pics and company. I was lucky enough to witness the stalking of the Dogues. It was also great to meet some new faces.

I will be there with bells on!! Ok so no thats the dogs but I will be there at any rate. Looking forward to seeing you all. I am sure it will be a memorable weekend. Julie, Andrew & the entire SARDA team are a wealth of knowledge in their field and for those who haven't been lucky enough to see them at work, you are missing out!

Congrats on the new addition Myszka!! She is a real cutie. Sounds like you are having fun.

K9 Force / Others, I am looking after a 1yo Cavelier King Charles at the moment and he has great drive which is awesome because I can actually use this stuff. I have been building drive over the past 5 days but is 3 times a day 3 mins a day enough? I do the spin thing with an orbee ball and he is pretty quick (me pretty slow) and beats me by grabbing it (within a minute...thank goodness because I am so dizzy), I then circle and look other way blah blah. It takes him about 5 mins to drop it the first time (he doesn't chew and doesn't look stressed but should he drop it quicker???) and so I only do 2 more lots and tease him the last time because time wise I am way over the 3 mins. I go inside and he gets frustrated and works harder the next time but he is still heaps crazy after doing the work. I have tried to pick up all the sticks in the yard and anything he would get drive satisfaction over but he just spins like crazy over his tail then. I don't do the tie out method as I am really scared he will break his neck, he goes nuts anyway and falls over. I am also teaching him basic commands such as drop etc....is it ok to be doing this while building drive? I know K9 has said not to walk or do anything while building drive. I need him to know these commands though for when I start to work with the focus section though. I am using the TOT at dinner too. This is all ok? I am not sure if I have made sense but I guess I need some clarification. Thanks

Thanks!

K9, Just a question about building drive, you suggested to Lablover to be building drive in quarantine etc but I thought the other day you mentioned to someone not to build drive if the dog was crazy in drive naturally (I could have this wrong though, my hearing is on par with a 85yo I think). If this was right, does it depend on what you want to do with the dog? The actual question I have is if you build drive and can get focus and results, do you then continue to build drive and frustration again to get quicker results or you just improve the focus to do this, do you just maintain the level of drive the dog works in or is there a maximum level of prey drive that a dog will work in and that is what you get after a couple of weeks anyway? Which is primary in SAR, pack drive is vital but so is prey. I would imagine prey drive is the primary drive but pack drive is highly utilised so would hold off on NILIF? Lablover, I would be interested in seeing an online diary for sure as well! Ta

Yep, all good. I am stuffed.....and burnt, maybe I will listen to the "bring sunscreen" message one day! Ciao ps: sas......I am so pysched "Panic! at the disco" have airplay haha....!! I am still in shock!! Gotta be excited by something as my footy team gives me NOTHING!! ETA: I just thought I would add that I think everyone did a brilliant job with their dogs. When the dogs were being worked, the theory stuff all made sense. Also, it was good to see how you actually do the movements etc. It was very motivating!

I'll be there as a spectator too. Should be a good day! See you guys then! ETA: I love the photo with the ocean behind Flame! Gorgeous!

Okie Dokie, here goes... I think the NSW SARDA thing is obviously a fantastic idea and I would be happy to volunteer and even co-ordinate (if trained). Co-ordination (maybe more preparation) wise I think it could be tricky, firstly we will need the correct training ie. navigational [maybe become "friends" with VRA (or similar) or bushwalking associations (they don't really allow dogs though?)], scent movement (Maybe a trip to VIC), even more prey drive work / practical training, first aid (Nominate yourself at work and they will pay maybe), canine first aid (are there courses or are books enough?) and more. You would also need to work on the team relationship / bond. Then you get to the actually training when you have the pups. This is obviously a long road though (not in the "world sense" though). Even if we could get 2 or more puppies in the group, operationally we really aren't kicking into gear for a while which is fine but I think a couple of roadtrips to meet VIC SARDA would be necessary. Then training SARDA wise, would anyone devote themselves once a week to training? or is this not necessary until later (depending on role). Could you train a SAR with 2 people originally? 1 body and 1 handler or you need more? It is not that easy to find friends / volunteers that want to go hide in the bush for however long. I don't want to get too excited about anything yet because a/ I need to prepare and find a pup and 2/ this is not and never will be a 1 person thing. So basically, who else has the enthusiasm and time (even a body a month could be beneficial long term I am sure) to commit? There is also the equipment and money thing, I am happy to devote what I can to training etc.... but I am confused at an average / actual figure. Would rallying for sponsorship per dog / handler / team be an idea? In saying all this, I would imagine you can also do as much temperament testing, health tests blah blah and still not end up with the perfect puppy for the work... but I guess that is the same in every discipline. Ahh, me confused!!! Edited: spelling and tried to make more sense Kristy

As an attendee of the SAR Workshop, I will give my opinion (the more technical requirements I will leave to SARDOG! and I will be interested in hearing the answers myself): Hopefully anyone with enthusiasm and willingness to learn. From the current SARDA team though, I think a sense of humour is advantagous! When considering it though (before I went to the workshop), I weighed up the passion side of things (for the dogs and the work ie. saving people) compared to the human skills involved. I am generally a shy person, so I thought how is that going to work but if you have the right team and motive for the work, I think anyone with a heart and drive to work hard should be able to do it (obviously a suitable puppy being required). Why would you want anything but a lab (maybe 1 Golden vote in there) haha!! You haven't seen SARDA dogs yet. I think you will forget that question once you meet them. I have never owned a lab but I can't wait (and I already sound biased)!!! Definitely not that I would trust with your life (stats wise in Oz). Ok thats harsh but I think it to be true (I have not met any other groups personally but I am sure you will leave with the attitude "once you found the best, don't consider the rest" or whatever the saying is.) This one relates for me to the next post I am going to write. How much time / energy are you able to commit? The Australian K9 Search and Rescue is still listed on the site as affiliates but when I was originally looking (to get a general idea), I could never find any info (thats not surprising with my internet skills though) on them. Were they ever used in NSW Jeff or do you remember the amount of training and training situations (mock searches etc).

It was unreal!! The dogs, SARDA team and K9 Force were fantastic. I have been trying to go over everything in my head but I just keep getting images of the dogs running off on the searches and then the finds and it still blows me away. The enthusiasm and accuracy was absolutely amazing. It is really hard to put into words as I have never really seen anything like it. I would like to thank Julie, Andrew, Pat, Chris and Steve again for making it an awesome weekend. It was informative but also a tonne of fun too. Everyone was so down to earth and funny which was such a nice surprise (not that I thought SARDA wouldn't be but they exceeded my expectations in every sense). I am still buzzing a bit so I am going to try and walk it off but a couple of comments: Andrew - Hope you leg is ok!! Julie - I didn't know River was Stamps son hehe Winterpaws - did you get the tweezers out and have fun removing foreign objects? AliBear - I will think of Granny Bikie every time I am sad! K9 - Better luck hiding people next time in VIC! It was a pretty good effort though. GillBear - Good luck with the part time! Sidoney - Think of 1hr 15m as "quality time" with your son haha Kavik - If I ever need mint tea bags, I am going to call you Chris - You are crazy (in a good way) Pat - Nice to meet you and I think I will use your 'sponge' cake recipe Sorry if I forgot anyone! I think the social aspect of the weekend made it more fun for me too. I hope everyone in VIC gets the same amount out of it as I did! Kristy

I am going too. I am so psyched about it!! I can't believe it is finally hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (well almost)!!! I have to try and write all my questions down because my head is all over the place (it normally is but it is worse than usual because it is so close).

Sas, my deepest sympathy to you You did everything you could for Turbo and you made the hardest choice of all but from what you said and all you have done, it was the only humane and right choice. His soul I am sure will be forever grateful. Take care deary and best wishes and I hope you find the perfect foster companion for Leila. ETA: :D and this for laughs

Lablover and others, Can you suggest any good titles that you have purchased on DVD seen as though you have a library? about training in drive, working dogs etc? I got a couple of Leerburg Productions (Raising a working puppy & Training Drive Focus & Grip) which I found informative, not that I have had a chance to put them to use much though but they support a lot of other things that I have read / heard / seen. I think I will generally adapt things as I go though if a certain method isn't working for me. Has anyone seen the Dog Show programme on Fox? It cracks me up. It is a reality series about people going to dog shows. I don't learn much out of it thats for sure but it is great entertainment.

Taken from Guide Dogs NSW Site: Puppy Raisers are responsible for feeding, grooming and exercising the dogs daily, along with basic obedience, house-training, and visits to the vet when needed. Despite this important training however, the pups are first and foremost puppies, so plenty of games and tummy scratches are a must. In relation to neutralisation for dogs, I met a drug detection lab the other day (at the Wellington Vintage Fair) who worked for Corrective Services and the Handler said he got him at about 9 months old from the pound. He didn't seem neutralised (and wouldn't have been as a pound puppy I wouldn't imagine) as he still reacted when he saw a Golden Retreiver (he still didn't go running towards it though) but he still would have been happy to work for the handler as they get trained using prey drive etc. K9, in your opinion, can a dog that still has positive associations to eg. other dog be a 100% reliable dog (obviously owner has to be number 1)? I would imagine the dog would have to be trained in prey drive (and toy would be number 2?) and this would override the association to the dog? I can see the advantages of neutralisation, I think there would be much less chance of distraction - if a dog has a positive or negative value to something eg. dog they will be more easily distracted which then leads to safety concerns. Obviously dogs are still trained under distraction even if they have a positive / negative value to things but I think next time I will try and do it K9 Force's way from the beginning to avoid problems.

Ok, finally all done. I think the below answered one of my previous questions about the neutralisation (playground equipment, barrels etc): The robotic label bothers me, as an owner of a dog with behavioural issues (which I caused inadvertently), I would love to follow K9s program to the end. I would much rather a dog that I could trust than one you can't even if people think it looks robotic. I went to one workshop at K9s and then worked with my dog after this with the prong and started desentisation and she came a long way. For her to walk past a dog a few metres away without going spaz was a big achievement for me (K9 did it within 30 seconds though). I know that even if I get the chance to train her again frequently, no matter how robotic she became, she would never lose her spirit or personality to her handler. The eyes do speak a thousand words and even though I only cracked the surface, she was happy and willing to do what I wanted (once I communicated what I wanted). Bub ByE!!!

Ok, just wanted to say it is 10.11pm and I have been reading this for about an hour from the start (on page 10 now) and just wanted to see how long it is going to take me to read the rest. K9, how often do you socialise / neutralise pups with other dogs or other things and for how long? Is taking the pup on the kids playground equipment for 5 mins enough for a lifetime or do you need to do it daily even if it doesn't seem bothered? This may have already been asked but I needed a break from reading. When I get a new pup, how do I go about separating / raising my little doggy from the pup? Is a crate and puppy pen enuff during the day? or is it advisable to separate the yard so they can't even see each other? Maddie (little dog) is a little submissive to bigger dogs but she usually doesn't pay any attention to other dogs, she would rather be with me. I know I can't police 2 dogs together when I am at work so I do want them separated but need a little help defining that. This may not relate to this so much but my brain is tired haha. Sorry if this has nothing to do with the price of fish in China. Whats the going rate for that nowadays anyway? haha

Heya dude, I think if Flossie has a high prey drive, it sounds like you need to work on building it a bit and then train to focus. In order to utilise prey drive, from what I understand there has to be a fair bit of movement in the prey item. Maybe there is not enough movement in it? As she is only 3 months old, maybe you can still use food in conjunction with prey drive but rather than using it as a reward, use it as a training method teaching focus. Not sure what age for a working puppy you should stop using this though. I am just saying the above in theory though, haven't had much experience yet. I would recommend maybe PMing K9 as he is the master in this stuff. Just a tip that might work in the meantime if you don't want to carry the treats, rub them in a hanky and put it in your shirt. You probably won't be able to smell it probably but Flossie will and depending where you put it, it may make her look at you. Good luck and let us know what happens

I would love a copy too please. I will pm you jbbb )

Sounds more like a temperament issue. If so, as I understand it you can help the certain behaviours (eg. being scared of dogs, noises etc) by desensitising but it will always be apart of the dogs temperament. I could be totally way off here so it will be interesting to hear the responses.

I would also like to thank Steve and I was honored to be able to attend. Unfortunately, I don't think I really mastered the pack drive connection with Sprocket (he was a sweetheart and cutie though) as it seemed a lot of the day he didn't want to be near me but with the information given by Steve throughout the day, I hope to work on this in the future. I just hope I didn't do anything to hinder his development and so forth when I had him. I probably wasn't as enthusiastic as I should have been though. It was great to watch the changes occur in the dogs during the day though and the information is still running through my head trying to process everything. It definitely wasn't something I could read in a book. I would have liked to stay around and get some feedback on how I can improve but I had to go somewhere last night. Thanks again

Tisha Prey - 65 Pack - 50 Defence - Fight - 45 Defence - Flight - 10 Maddie Prey - 50 Pack - 60 Fight - 10 Flight - 45

I got my DVDs from Leerburg last night. Just wanted to let you know that they did work in the player. They are DVD-Rs. As for the DVDs I got, I thought they would great to watch to support what I have already read. Most of the information just reiterated what is said on here regarding prey drive. Dogs trained in prey drive are amazing though and you can tell they live for the ball when in drive. I knew this by looking at pics on K9 Forces website but it was good to see on DVD. I also got the one about raising a working puppy. Most of it sounds like common sense (after you watch it) ie. neutralising your dog to people and other dogs but I was glad I saw that too. Have a great day!

On a discussional level your example makes sense too. I guess in these examples it depends on the kind of person you are, if you are motivated etc. For the trainers that use this method, what is the point of elevating drive through corrections (besides obviously elevating drive) ? Is there a reason why they use corrections to do so rather than other methods? Is it just personal preference? I know what I am trying to ask but can't put it into words so this doesn't really make sense. Is this the point of why they do it?

I may be way off here but isn't the point of corrections to reduce the particular action? If you are doing it with the aim of elevating the drive, what happens when you really have to use a correction? Wouldn't it have to be ten times higher in force? I would imaging training in drive should limit the amount of corrections ever needed to be used but I am a bit confused. If you are trying to get a dog to like corrections (and in turn use them a lot), wouldn't it be raising its threshold for pain rather than elevating drive? In a human perspective, if someone kept giving me a correction (even just saying no), I would probably freeze and give up because in my mind I wouldn't be doing anything right so whats the point of trying. I don't think I could be conditioned to enjoy corrections. On the other hand, if someone showed me something I liked and when I did something right I got it (in my case, chocolate would work!!), I would be much more willing to work harder for it in future to get it.