herding_guy

They are. Eye; The ability of a dog to control sheep with concentration using eye to eye contact. A dog moves stealthily, sometimes with one foot paused midair in an attempt to obtain this eye to eye contact with the sheep. The more eye a dog has the more he will pause and stare. Eye dogs are great at controlling small numbers of sheep….the problem comes when you have large mobs and the dog will fix to one or two sheep forgetting about the other hundred or thousand. Some people hate eye dogs and some like ‘em. I’ve heard all sorts of theories about ‘eye’; It’s aggression, fear, concentration, lack of experience etc etc. Most of which I agree with…depends on the dog. Truth is it is a hypertrophied instinctual behaviour within prey drive that you will observe in sheepdogs and gun dogs like pointers. Personally I like eye dogs, they look good when working small mobs at trials. The trick is to use it to your advantage. Dogs with strong eye can be trained to creep in on cue without taking there attention off the sheep you want to control – can’t do that with loose eyed dogs. If your patient enough you can teach them to walk in a step at a time and shift their weight, left or right, on command…..I haven’t been able to do this with weaker eyed dogs. Strong eyed dogs are fun but you need to give them experience to loosen ‘em up on big mobs – not impossible. If your dog is strong eyed teach it an “off” …. I do it by letting the dog go into eye then putting pressure on the dog by shifting balance while giving the cue “off” or directional cues then rewarding the dog. If you’ve got a dog with specific talents learn how to utilise those talents and work with them. Indian runner ducks are great to teach and train strong eyed dogs on if you can’t get sheep.

You answered it ... depends on the dog.....changing the direction is a great help. Hve you got a good "stop" on her? This is called "sheep TV" for herding dogs Not hard with a know how dog and a handler that knows how to position themselves. Just give it a go you might be pleasantly surprised and you'll have a lot of fun doing it.

CONGATULATIONS Erny. When is coming out herding? I don't know about the one syllable thing my dogs recall fine with 2 syllable names like "dickhead" "F#$$ing P$#&k" and not to forget "A**%hole" Cheers, Dave.

Hi guys it's Dave from the herding school at Diggers. If youu want to organise group training days give me a call. It's a little too wet and slippery at the moment but with the warmer weather not to far away you might want to get your group together every 3 weeks? I really enjoyed the day to as I always do..the dogs were great..so were the handlers. Speak to you soon. PS I get on this forum every blue moon that's why I took so long to find this thread.

Yes all introduction days are in groups of 5 - 10. Speak to you soon Cheers, David.

Please email via website and I'll call you. We hopefully will have one on the 4th and 11th of May.

Looking forward to seeing you again....glad to hear she's doing good.

I start pups ASAP - last lot were 5 weeks old when they first saw sheep. Teaching starts when the dog tells you he/she is ready. Some dogs can handle training very young while others need a bit of time. I've started dogs as early as 8 weeks and as old as 9 years. Hi Kavik, Clover and Jesomil....you'll be happy to know all is good and Mouse came 5th in his last trial in novice with 81 - and he just turned 2 in March. Hopefully I'll get back on DOL soon but i still have no internet at home. Cheers, David.

Hi Flip. Funny I haven't been on DOL for a long time and the first question I see is for me. I do herding introduction days and training. You can contact me through the Fourpaws website fourpawsk9training.com.au. We actually have spaces left for this Saturday, May 4th, if you are interested & the weather holds out. You can also do a 2 day weekend with Working Dog Education - google Beloka Kelpies - in Welshpool. Talk to you soon I hope. David.

I'm still not online..... rather be playing with dogs, horse 'n sheep So back to the bat cave I go..... speak to you in the future!

Hi everyone. There are some places that have become available for the 13th October Herding School. So if anyone is interested either contact Four paws through; http://www.fourpawsk9training.com.au/ or ring us on 0422525225 Cheers.

First time I've been on DOL for yonks..... Hey Rachellebuck......We're running a school this Saturday 13th and still have places left so check out the Four Paws website and register if interested. ...or ring Geoff on 0422 525 225. Cheers.

Vicki....very well said...totally agree. I also would like to add that the sheep also change depending on the situation and dog. Trained sheep react differently to different dogs and whether they are in the yards or open paddock also if there are 3 or 5 sheep. Distance increases between dog / sheep / handler according to the space they have and how many sheep there are. This also depends on the breed of sheep as well. My dog Scout never worked really wild sheep until he was 2yo. We were given a job to gather and yard 200 merino ewes that had never seen a dog or human up close before. He went in hard at first but sorted himself out very very quickly. I had to drive sheep and adjust my normal handling techniques as well. I suppose another instinct (or is it a learned behaviour???) is being able to read the sheep for both handler and dog. Being able to adjust (dog and handler) and control ones dog to suit the flightiness or fight in the sheep is what training and trialling is all about and this can only be done through working trained sheep.

never known of or heard of a grey that needed clipping.....if he comes in send me a pic please.

...and here is the other brother Mouse....the ugly one....and his dad Scout come out and give 'me a run whenever you want.

Hi Dasha, I'm not a "club" but I do run herding workshops / days / weekends for all people and dogs. Definitely not for the money (because it doesn't make any) but because there are 100's - 1000's of working bred dogs trapped in backyards around suburbia chasing flies. THere is nothing I like better than seeing a 5yo AW Kelpie see sheep for the first time and switch on and work like it's worked all it's life. Even better when the owners decide they are going to give trialling a go or get sheep on their property or tell you their dog helped next door get 20 stray ewes penned after training with me for a couple of months. I invite all sorts of dogs and handlers to attend because they may love it so much they will go out and find a working bred dog and train that to become a future champ. Are these "herding guys " experienced triallers / trainers and if so maybe they are right. An inexperiened dog can be ruined on the wrong sheep. I think you are very wrong - but who realy knows??? I breed AW Kelpies and they are in demand for work and trial. Why trialling ...because people have tasted it with their current dog and now want to go further. It can only be good for trialling. I disagree because 3 sheep and yard / utility has not altered. Where has the activity of herding been altered to suit inferior dogs and why would inferior dogs be chosen over supreior dogs?????????????? In my opinion and many other well respected working dog breeders and trainers believe trialling herding dogs may be the demise of the true working dog. Choosing bidable, sensitive/soft dogs over stronger types. ( but let's not get into this debate) No hammering just good ol' banter.

You make it sound a bit too easy and I suppose it is if you only want a dog that will bring some sheep to you from 3m away and walk around in a circle. A dog bred for herding still needs to be trained. There is a development stage, a teaching phase, training and proofing. Most is natural training as you said but the behaviours still need to be shaped. A lot of it is about controlling thresholds and choreographing behaviour sequences. However there are a lot of behaviours that need to be trained through inducement and sometimes via compulsion. It all depends on what you want from your dog. Yes I agree but there are always circumstances that you need to take control and guide the dog. For instance if I'm working cattle I don't want the dog to use his gathering desire, I want him to drive stock.

Yes, this is instinct but will not always show up in dogs that lack confidence. Pup's and the softer dog will generally not head until they have worked on balancing for awhile and become more confident at being able to move sheep. Not every herding dog has that special 'get out do the job' temperament some have to be schooled and trained to encourage the development of instinct and then the handler can put command over instinct. All dogs have to be "schooled and trained" no matter what temperament they have. When starting a dog it is important to give all dogs chances to head to learn to use the instinct so they may control, hold stock. It is important that the motor pattern is developed but this is true for all behaviours. This dog could be in avoidance, feeling too much pressure from stock and handler or whole situation and should not be discounted all together. I would never consider grab - bite as a suitable prey instinct behaviour for herding. I never allow my dogs to bite much less grab and woudn't breed from stock that show this. Eye is important. A dog should be able to move a lead sheep with eye alone. Other instincts I like are backing, and barking. Presence is also a good thing not to many dogs have this anymore. I also like a dog that keeps his/her sheep calm...some do this naturally.

...and head - can't teach a dog to head stock. a good kelpie will always think they know best and you know they ussually do :D

THe very high drive is what you want........work with it.

Glad to hear you gave it a go. I've had quite a few Rotti's and GSD's out herding...all have shown some ability. For you guys with Rottis and GSD's who want to give it a go - Teach your dogs a reliable stop in/from prey drive.

Go get a GOOD trainer involved NOW! No-one here can see how the dog is actually reacting and advice should be given only after seeing the dog and handler in action. Correcting this behaviour with choke / lead / prong etc could lead from an excited, exhuberant, ill mannered dog to an aggressive monster if not done correctly. May I add - the dog must be shown how to react through safe controlled set ups. In the dogs head he is reacting how he thinks he should and hasn't been shown any other way. Get a GOOD trainer involved.

not so of the judge...........know what ya mean, been there :wink:

Set the dog up to win. You have obviously taught the sit and now you are teaching the stay in position. Add distraction slowly first then add distance SLOWLY.

Hi Does this mean a game of some sort, as opposed to food?? cheers M-J yes.