leopuppy04

with me - I think that out of my 4 sports, I could only concentrate on getting 2 really good. Herding is not a top priority for me, so I only go when I can Obedience takes priority over agility atm as I'm concentrating on Leo's CD - when we have that, agility will take priority..... but I feel that I can successfully train both to a high standard in 2 dogs.... not more but that is me and how it fits in to my time constraints. Also - when I prioritise, I mean about the trials that I enter

Interesting Arya - part of me agrees with you. But I also have some theories i'd like to test..... one day I should get out the worst behaved dog in the history of the world and see if I can succeed with positive training....... I just have some theories and ideas that run around in my head but I don't know whether or not they would work..... lol

Yep - her poodle x got her CD in 4 trials and this dog is not an easy one to train. I heard from her this weekend that her aussie won in his first obedience trial in NZ! Their criteria is a LOT harder than here - particularly in terms of heeling - apparently they don't want to see daylight between you and the dog ! Is that Benson (dog's name?). It's a lovely Goldie and works brilliantly - he has a younger Goldie also (that I want to steal) and she works great also., But off the top of my head- some pro trainers that have done well using positives are *Richard Curtis *Greg Derrett *Kay Laurence..

another example is a CDODC lady that I train with. She got her BC at around 12 mths and has since trained it to UD level - all positive..... in the space of around 18mths - 2yrs I think. That includes acquiring, bonding, training and then trialling very, VERY good trainer

i know.... Yeah - what you say is true... the door swings both ways. There are many people that just for having a check chain on their dogs are told they are cruel..... No matter which method we use, we'll always be criticised by someone! I only get annoyed when fellow trainers who should know better ask me if I can please stop using my clicker as their dog is clicker trained and responding to mine..... hmph!

I do obedience, agility, herding and showing. My dogs never get confused between obedience and agility - after all agility is just another form of 'obedience' as is showing (IMO) The problem is the time constraints and finding enough time to properly train the dog to the top level in each sport. My dogs learn a variety of tricks including free shaping which many people say stuffs up your obedience and agility (coz you are asking the dog to think for itself and be 'creative') - there is definately no confusion there. In a drop stay my dog doesn't start to walk back, wave, bark and play dead.... they can define each activity. When i'm heeling the dog doesn't start weaving between my legs etc,etc. The only reason I have 'difficulty' with showing (and I don't really think I do) is from my lack of 'training' the behaviour as well as me being a complete dimwit at it - I can't seem to present my dog properly Herding I really can't say because I haven't done it that often - but I can vouch that if sheep are there and I ask my dog to do some obedience they will - they can switch from one to the other easily. Herding is also hard coz it depends on the level of instinct the individual dog has ETA - I think it would be hard to excel at every sport if you attempted to do them all at once..... I have it made in my mind that I want to excel in obedience and agility.... so I concentrate more on these. I also actually find that the earlier you start training both and training both simultaneously works to your advantage. I had to do a bit of training to get Leo comfortable about working on my right side and ahead of me. But once we got that sorted he has been great - true versatility.

Exactly - If I find that I ever had to growl at my dog for something - ie: jumping on the bench (which they never have mind you ) I would consider it something I haven't trained - they got the 'evil green monster' for doing the unthinkable, but it was probably more of a reflex reaction. I'd then go back and spend time 'training' the correct behaviour - ie: putting some tasty meat on the bench - watch TV or something where I can see and C&T the dog every time they walk past and not interact...... I did the same when Kinta knicked some food off the floor - I growled at her, but then later came back and 'trained' the correct way - ie: if you leave that boring carrot, you are more likely to get some nice sausage from me I just wanted to clarify what I do so that someone then doesn't say to me - 'but you said you never growl at your dogs'

I think there needs to be a bit of clarification on 'purely positive'. I consider myself a 'positive' trainer - as to whether I am purely positive or not, I cannot say.... I think that varies a lot on definition. I don't punish (physical or verbal) the dog during training. Manners are another story. I will punish (verbal) if my dog jumps on the bench, is about to run onto the road and into oncoming traffic.... I will verbally reprimand if they do something that I deem as unacceptable and possibly detrimental to their welfare.... I will never 'punish' the dog if they don't sit/drop on command, but I will withold the reward (howz that Erny?! ) I can't claim on titles as I've been trialling for under 12mths. I have gained Leo's CCD - 5 passes in 7 trials (lol - I had entered 3 in a row, got the title in the first of the three and then still continued in the other two). Each pass that we gained our score was between 88-97 (out of 100) and we always placed (1st - 3rd). I have recieved some lovely comments about his heeling (still waiting on your feedback Ness!!!) I have gained one pass to Leo's JD - but have only entered 2 agility trials - started trialling in March this year. We have gained our HIC even though it isn't a 'title'. We have learnt numerous tricks including some complex ones too. The biggest punnisher my dog recieves has been a 'no' or 'uh - uh' for a NRM which works really well IMO. I was taught initially that when my dog does the wrong thing to growl "AHHH" which I did, but have since stopped and feel that I have a better understanding and better relationship. My dog knows that he will not get punished if he makes a mistake, which is a huge plus as he is a naturally 'soft' dog and all of my trainers and I agree that should I have implemented 'correction' work i'd be fighting a loosing battle with him. JMHO. http://allcreatures3.tripod.com/leo.html Feel free to click on the link - have a look at my pages and click on the links to watch the vids.

Which makes this person all the more frustrating because she did the same uni course as me and therefore knows 'everything' - so even if I point it out she won't listen..... even if I tell her not to - she knows better.... LOL - Same person who tells me my dogs are not fed enough because they are 'so skinny'.... same person who will feed her dog 3 meals because he didn't eat the first one.... trust me - I love her to bits, but I can't agree on her dog training methods and no matter what I tell her she won't listen ;)

That i woudn't like unless i asked for it that particular time. Thats offering behaviour, and hoping to get a reward. In that case i would say a pat like they did before. Would you still see it as offering behaviour if they constantly get rewarded for it despite me telling them to get 'off'? I find i'm wasting a command if the person is just going to keep encouraging it, so I end up 'giving up' lol. One friend is a very annoying example - she has known Leo since he was a baby - came with me to pick him up. From day 1 has encouraged him to jump. He goes nuts when she comes over and she loves it - claims it means he loves her more than me ...... only lately - since she has a b/f and has been wearing 'nicer' clothes to our house - she doesn't want the dog to jump - how can you stop a dog that for 3 years has been permitted to jump on you whenever you go and see him - and even though you are talking to him in the same way and encouraging it....... coz if Leo doesn't go nuts then he must be sick Kinta doesn't jump on her - result - she doesn't like Kinta..... That is what I hate - people who 'make up their rules as they go along'. For example - my dogs probably never would jump on you or even attempt to, because you are consistent and would never 'invite' them to! LOL good-o - just wanted to make sure that you didn't think my guys were raving lunatics coz they really are a pleasure to take out and my mum (who hates dogs) loves having them around as they are just 'so easy'. Like you - I have pet hates in regards to dogs also - ones that push their way through to get a pat and push your other dogs out of the way - or lick and lick and lick..... lol - mine have attributes of that but when I say STOP they do ;) Oooh - and the thing I deem worse than jumping up are when dogs stick their whole heads in your open treat pouch and scoff as much food as they can muster!!! LOL! Enough training at NDTF got me well and truley fed up with that ;)

No - they don't have to tell me - NO jumping is allowed unless invited by me. What I mean is that the person who gets jumped on 'asks' for it by 'inviting' the dog to jump up, or having the dog jump up and saying 'oh it doesn't matter' and continues to pat them with 2 feet on their chest. the dogs pick this up and after a few times of this, my two will then jump on these people before being asked. If they don't mind, neither do I. Every now and then my dogs have slipped up and jumped on people without being asked and just coz they felt like it. I don't accept that and they were reprimanded for it - It seldom happens now. WMR- it already is on cue - they don't jump/ shouldn't jump unless they hear 'hugs'..... ETA - Sway - if their jumping is as bad as what I think you think it is - they wouldn't have been able to pass their therapy accreditation as the vet (who my dog loves) had to get the dog all riled up and 'encourage' them to jump on him. If they did- they would have failed. My dogs have worked out who allows them to jump and who doesn't...... simple as that

Yet your let your dogs jump on people. My dogs have a fairly lenient jumping policy - when I get all excited with them, they can jump (unfortunately this carries over to other people too ) Yes, they are permitted to jump on me and on others who ask for it (read my 2nd post - I did an edit)..... but if they were to jump on someone who didn't invite it they do get told off - that is unacceptable behaviour. I said it does carry over to other people but that doesn't mean that I allow it - but rather that they will TRY IT. and they ARE. Not forgotten - it's done. But I will admit that because I do not rule jumping out as a complete no-no - it is ongoing training for us. They will jump on people - but as I said - the people that invite it - they don't ambush someone i'm just standing there and talking to

I dissagree - everybody wants 'socially acceptable' dogs as you would want to take your dog everywhere with you and for it to be a pleasure. For me - the difference would be - social acceptance in people without kids may be different to those with kids (eg: allowing dogs to jump etc) ETA: To add to that - I think my dog has brilliant social manners - both are accredited therapy dogs..... I don't have kids - yet I can easily (and did so on sunday) *give my dog to a child to walk and know that my dog won't pull on the lead (given that he can see me otherwise he will pull to get back to me). *readily let my dog approach children knowing that they won't jump or bowl them over - the most he will do is try and lick their face *have children eat in front of him and know that they won't steal the food - even if the toddler drops it (Kinta is still in training, but will leave it 90% of the time)..... *know that they won't badger for food - Leo does a little, but he isn't too bad- he will sit infront of them, but if I call him back or tell him to leave it, he will. The only people that my dogs really do jump on and badger for food are the ones that have REWARDED it - ie: patted the dogs for jumping or fed the dogs after they have jumped (mine can chain behaviours really well!) or are the ones that constantly feed them no matter what their behaviour is like!!! LOL. But that means that these people DONT mind..... my guys will rarely jump on others that don't inadvertently reward - with a bit of training on my part

If someone said to you they do Obedience what do you think? I think of competitive obedience. I call manners 'manners training'..... obedience training to me is sit/drop/stand/stay/heel etc. 'manners training' to me is: not pulling on lead/coming when called/not stealing off the table and general household manners suited to your lifestyle. What is Obedience to you? see above. Do you think some Obedience people, fail to train there dog social manners, as there is no test for it? Yeah there are always some that don't.... but what is your definition of social manners? And does your Obedience dog have the best social manners that it could have?? definately - I have never really taught my dogs not to jump because it doesn't bother me..... but they know not to jump on others and when I tell them 'settle' to do so. We are refining it a little coz Leo has tried jumping on ANYBODY to see what happens and he usually gets attention ;)..... but I don't want them walking up to someone and planting their paws on them.... they may jump when commanded. IMO - my dogs have excellent household manners - they won't beg at the table, won't take food unless told, won't come inside unless told, don't barge through doors and 'generally' don't pull on the lead (generally coz I have a 9mth old steam train coz she hasn't been for a walk in 3 weeks!). For the record i think ALL dogs should have social manners before anything else . By social manners i mean, not jumping on people, not stealing food, not bullying young kids etc Sociallly accetable dogs in my wording/eyes. I agree that all dogs should have social manners - otherwise they are not a joy to have around and take everywhere. But keep in mind that your definition of good social manners may differ from someone else. eg: My dogs have a fairly lenient jumping policy - when I get all excited with them, they can jump (unfortunately this carries over to other people too ) but they are not allowed to step one foot in the door unless given a command - which may not be the case at your place..... so social manners does vary. Likewise - My form of LLW may be different to yours - yours may be for the dog to walk right beside you - mine might be for the dog to have the length of the lead on either side so long as they are not charging....

does that mean that soon i'll be able to say Bl$$dy border collies the next time Ness gets a win????

WTG Ness! Now - just to get a 1st place at nationals.........

c'mon Jules- a day in the city - how nice

Showgrounds - where the shows are held in the city????? There must be places around there that we could use - even those parks area near Melb Uni..... or the hockey grounds

Just flicking through my diary and I have no free Saturdays until the end of September!!!! I can do one on May 26th PM - after the Caufield dog show - perhaps we can meet up somewhere in Ascot Vale and do some training there?

You me BJ (she's a sister )..... Isn't she just stunning! I Looove her copper points (sooo jealous on that point!). Yes, she does do the cutest 'say your prayers' and they blame me for that coz I showed them how to do it with Leo. LOL - I spent the whole Aussie Shepherd fun day talking to them coz when I saw them last I didn't know I was getting Kinta Both girls are very similar in temperament by the sounds of things!! LOL - if you see them again - tell them I said hi ETA; LOL - awww Jesomil - what about Terror as in Holy Terror (not that he is - i'll take him in a second!)

If there is heavy rainfall training is cancelled!!!!! Will give my mobs to a few people (shoey) so check with them if you are unsure..... if it is raining before you go and you are dubious - then best not come - i'd hate for you to come a long way to find no-one is there! If it is sporadic rain - i'll be there

Any last minute takers for this Sat? Knox ODC grounds (corner of FTG rd and Scorseby Rd) 9am

hey - that wasn't part of the plan - who said I was going to give up one of my two??? ..... oh yeah... me! On Sunday didn't I say I was going to sell him on DOL :D!! LOL CTD - typical of Josh to win fastest eater! Think he could win 'quickest tongue' too :D

Arya - CTD wasn't there yesterday http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=98297. I think you can do hi-10's. Leo gives me 'hugs' after we finish an exercise and I haven't once been told off for this, coz i'm not using anything except myself and his enthusiasm . Both poodles were fantastic - there was a white poodle that went in first also, but I think he bombed out on the recall - BEAUT heeling

ooh - did she have the pretty black poodle!!! That dog was sooo good :cool: . I think she got 1st place?