leopuppy04

Going slightly Thanks for the link Pippi - I found that fascinating. I must say, I would sit somewhere in the middle though. I don't want my dog to 'ignore' everything. But I would expect them not to run up to a dog off leash unless I say, come back when I say and also 'leave' something if I say. If that hinders my dogs working ability slightly - or takes me longer to achieve it, then so be it. I think you can do a little bit of 'social' and a little bit of 'neutralisation'. I found that read fascinating. I must say there are some things that I want my dog to be 'social' to as opposed to 'neutral' though. Like Ness said in the thread - I don't want a dog that gives me attention 110% of the time also .

ok - thanks Cosmo - makes sense - you wouldn't really want to be pulled aside and the worst thing you had in your case was 'apple scented' toiletries Another question? Is it a constant reward system or do you use intermittent rewards?

I would think that they 'should' indicate, but as to whether they will or not I am not sure as i'm not well versed on scent detection. May I ask why quarantine dogs are trained to ignore? What if some drugs were mixed in with another substance? Would that fool the dogs? Serious question as I don't know anything about scent detection

What do you mean you sill 'socialise' rather than 'neutralise' cosmo - I don't think i've heard of that before. Mind you - even though my two are separated, they do spend heaps of time together - I only seperate them so that there is less chance of a pup getting injured as well as them not becoming too dependant on each other. I still think that the owner can bond appropriately regardless of whether housed together or not

I think that is the key thing here. If they are managed so that they can be independent individuals and the owner has enough time to spend with each dog (on it's own) they won't have a problem. I think for those with more dogs though it may be easier to keep them seperate at least part of the time so that they can also have a break from the other dogs I guess.

CTD - I do the same as Ivasis.... They are seperated during the day while i'm at work and together when i'm home. That way they can bond appropriately to 'me' and learn proper dog manners. I also - like you have done with Tia - do heaps of work taking the individual pup out on it's own for a chance of social etc . I feel guilty leaving Leo at home though since he is home alone - would be easier with another dog to keep him company . But then he also comes out with me too on his own also I'm always worried that some freak accident will happen while they are together - but one accident did happen while they are seperate (not related) , so now that they are a little older they will spend some days together while i'm at work - probably 60 seperate: 40 together Helen said: which is the exact reason I keep mine seperate at least part of the time so that they are independent in themselves and can function as an individual unit and not stress when part of their pack (dog or human) are taken away

Agreed . But then people get awfully funny about the level at which their dogs can compete etc. And IMHO - it is a tough ask for a dog to do all of these behaviours with little/ no indication that they are doing the right thing from their master. Having said that - I think that 'most' triallers also train good manners also - they have enough 'training knowledge' to do so perhaps without even knowing that they are doing it :D. There are some that don't do that and for whatever reason, clearly they wouldn't take their dogs out to experience everyday situations coz where's the fun in having an OC titled dog that doesn't have the manners at the local cafe. I don't think any competition will give you 'real life out there' situations. Just like - sometimes the 'best' dog doesn't always win in the show ring . So - I compromise and train for both - one as a sport and the other so that my dog is reliable and a pleasure to take everywhere .

man I hate stays - just thinking about them makes me nervous!

Yay - well done CTD - watched the vid - she looks great! I should pull my thumb out and get stuck into it with Kinta

KK - while I do understand *entirely* what you are saying, I still do agree with your instructor. When I am in trialling class I stand with my hands in front for the recall/ distance position or anything that you will be asking your dog to do something and when I do stays, I put my hands behind my back and also alter my standing position . I have a variety of reasons for this. I used to have my hands in front which was 'fine and dandy' until my dog kept breaking his stays...... I get v-e-r-y nervous while trialling and can do a variety of 'wrong' things such as stare at my dog or something ridiculous which can set him on tenterhooks. So I find the best way for us to succeed is for me to do the stays with my hands behind my back. Having said that however, obviously my dog won't be able to see where my hands are once we get into open!! LOL! But I do agree with you that the 'obedience stay' just as the 'obedience recall' shouldn't be the 'be all and end all' coz lets face it - if it was, our dogs would be terribly disobedient! When we want them to come back we aren't exactly going to have them in a sit-wait..... they are more likely to be chasing other dogs/ rabbits etc ;). Likewise, if I ask my dog to 'stay' I'm not always going to be standing there in front of him like a stunned mullett or someone with a pole up their ass (and with nerves that IS what I look like !). I'm never going to ask my dog to heel beside me for our entire walk, nor even when we walk past other dogs.... that isn't heel to me . The only reason I change my body language in the trial ring (hands in front/ to the side/ out the back) is to help him understand better. Likewise when i'm heeling; my left hand is on my hip as opposed to swinging around. In agility - my hand is out as opposed to beside me :p. IMHO - obedience trialling does not build up 'manners' or general everyday 'obedience'. I don't do it for that. I do/ did the basic classes for that. Hence why some trialling dogs have appaling manners . Obedience/ agility/ dog sports to me build up teamwork and is thus not necessary to everyday living. I do it coz I love it..... and what I do in the ring, in my mind doesn't help him become a better dog in public, but me generalising what we do in the ring to EVERYWHERE that helps him be a good dog in public.......

The only two I have had experience with are Action dogs and Croydon. I can't say whether or not they will suit you or not (let you pretty much do anything) as it depends on what instructor you have. I guess the best you can do is go down, have a look and see if they will suit

Leo's breeder was having a play with their sheep and invited us along. I am pleased that he got back into the sheep though

If Leo can pass i'm sure Tia will blitz! No problems at all I assure you!! She looks great in the large paddock! A true working dog I won't be going - Haven't done much with Kinta. Had a bit of a go yesterday (not with ASCV - couldn't make it) and Leo was the same as last time- not interested . He picked up again when we chucked another dog in with him and eventually was back to where he was at our first lesson!

I still think they were pretty good runs considering Wednesday's event!!!!! Well done on your 3 passes! Bad luck for your excellent finals What jump was she meant to take in the jumping/?? Well done - you should still be proud

the excuses some people have It's all about proofing after all

Is there anyone here who is flatly opposed to using treats for training? I know there are a few trainers out there that refuse to use treats and am curious as to why

No probs - i'm sure you had thought of it before, but I thought i'd ask anyway

Actually its funny you mention this. If I say for example have been working pretty hard on obedience/agility and we take a break for 1-2 weeks and concentrate on the other (or even just do some tricks as opposed to the 'serious' stuff' I have found that Leo comes back with 'super' enthusiasm because of the break..... so maybe teaching multiple things is beneficial - less chance for burnout.

always me making the final decision. I'm very lucky though as the class that i'm in with Kinta - they know I instruct (kinda obvious since I have to wear the red instructors shirt ) but they are also willing for me to do everything pretty much on my own. I don't interfere with their class though by doing this. In the trialling class - they offer 'suggestions' on how to improve Leo's performance and most times i'll try it and like the result better . But if I don't like it, I won't do it and try something else.... LOL. ETA: cosmo - is your dog toy mad? could you throw a toy into the tunnel to try and entice them in???

hard one - I think I started seriously training Leo for 'trialling' at 18mths.... say Jan 2006. Entered encouragement in May 2006 although I still say I didn't start 'trialling' until August 06 as that was when we started under the new rules. Gained our first pass at the first CCD trial we entered. 2mths break - entered next trial in Oct 06 and gained another pass. Straight into another 2 trials in Nov 06 and had 2 fails (on the stays) Went back and over the summer proofed all of the exercises. Next trial entered March 07 - entered 3 trials - passed all 3 with IMO very good scores.... First CD trial was April 07 - failed miserably I think it really depends on how much time you have though. Agility - started 'seriously' training June 06 - first trial March 07 - first Pass at our 2nd trial - April 07 (one pass in JD).

But what if fighting (or the adrenaline rush from fighting) is the best motivator for a particular dog? It's not exactly something you can make the dog work for, it's something you never ever want the dog to do. And although in this situation you can teach and reward alternative behaviours until the cows come home, if you never reduce the value of the predatory/aggressive behaviour with some sort of aversive, then what's to stop the dog indulging in it whenever he has the opportunity? And as long as you're also constantly reinforcing correct behaviour, then what's so wrong with using a correction to show the dog that particular behaviours simply won't be tolerated? (I don't want to hijack this thread, so Leopuppy, please feel free to respond via PM instead of posting here in response. I have read & attempted to use the Click to Calm book, and am always interested in informed discussions about dog-dog aggression, since it's pretty much an ongoing challenge for us.) Only slightly and I'd like to hear other peoples responses. I honestly can't answer your question to the full extend due to my lack of expertise in this particular area. All I am going by is 'theories' and 'heresay' and not by personal experience . Sometimes the adrenaline from fighting is the best motivator - that can also mean that a punisher can also not work. The dog couldn't care less lets say - in the worse case scenario - about the electric shock you give it simply because the behaviour it is producing is so rewarding to itself. When there are high levels of adrenaline, we know that any animals pain receptors are pretty much 'inactive' until after the event.... so they may actually not even respond to it. Some may even heighten their aggression because of it (like punching and yelling at someone to get the revved for a boxing match). Hence, I am always a little skeptical about using it in that scenario simply because of the implications that may occur - but I'm not denying that it can and will work. For me - and not having done this personally in action, but having watched others do it - I find that if you work at a distance where your dog won't react and reward accordingly (they are aware of the stimulus but not responding) - this will work far better than putting your dog in a situation where it may react albeit mildly and recieve a correction. Dogs respond better to get what they want and I do believe that it can work...... but as I said - I have not personally had to deal with this.....

oh no - poor you 2tollers country Joe- what a laugh!!!!! :D!! so let me ask you - have you trained any more tree stumps since then?? Clearly your labs aren't fed enough to go scouting around for sausages- definately not a normal trait

I think the problem is that obedience (working close to you, the same way as you move) tends to override the dogs natural herding instinct (working away from you, moving the opposite way to you ie balancing), so doing both at the same time could possibly confuse the dog. I think their comments weren't necessarily not to do obedience at all, more not to do it at the same time as the herding :D . True - but wouldn't that be the same for agility too - working away from you? I was told the same thing with Kinta - to stop all else and just do herding with her... . I agree with you to a certian extent - yes, it does make it *initially* more difficult on the dog as they are now expected to think for themselves rather than wait on you for direction (to a degree). I think this is what they find hard - Leo has done heaps of obed, has no problems 'chasing' the sheep, but has difficulty when we ask him to 'do' something with the sheep as he is uncertian and *wants* direction. But I think that once we overcome that hurdle, any obedience dog can also be a herding dog. There's also the advantage of the younger they meet the sheep the better I think sometimes we underestimate the ability of our dogs to work in varying situations. If you can cope, I think the dogs can cope.

If that is "almost" purely positive - may I ask for you definition of 'purely positive' please - only coz IMO to get anywhere in training you will have to withold the reward .... otherwise the dog is not learning anything..... My definition of 'positive training' is that no physical or verbal punishment is administered - simply a NRM/witholding the treat/or ignoring is used.... but that is just me I think that adult dogs could still be trained with +ve methods...... I think the 'click to calm' method is highly successful and as you say - dogs will work for what motivates them and I think even with the most dominant dog, positive methods will work with a bit of NILIF (you control all the good things!). JMHO - but as I said - i'd like to try it one day Definately agree with you there - saying 'no' to a dog is not abusive and I find it difficult to comprehend how they will gain proper control by always teaching the dog an alternative...... especially for general manners.... again JMHO

I think Leo was pretty mean to me at the croydon trial "Next exercise is SFE.... are you ready?" "yep" Leave dog walk out and dog shakes - end of exercise stoopid dog - he was sitting on such a good score. "next exercise - recall.... are you ready?" "yep" Leave dog - walk out, about turn and wait..... call dog.... At which point dog stands up and gives you a blank look as if to say 'did you really call me?!" I call a 2nd time (after instructed to) and he comes in perfect, does one of his best fronts and a lovely finish! :D Had he done both of these exercises well (which he has never stuffed before... well SFE he has moved feet, but not this!), we would have passed with a score over 190 *sobs* Does that count? As for agility - I think it is a laugh on me more than the dog. 1st agility trial - I didn't run out far enough with him so he missed a jump - I took him back over to do it and he simply put his two front paws on it and purpousely PUSHED it off ! We then continued in the course and he entered the weavers correctly but couldn't be stuffed finishing the rest *sigh* - he's done that a few times now so working on that . he then got to the table and 'couldn't be bothered' jumping up on it ..... Stupid handler then took him round the wrong 1/2 of the course ..... That was amusing ....luckily our 2nd trial went better