leopuppy04

I keep telling myself that - but the butterflys keep coming :D!!!! How do ya know the world isn't going to end :D!!!

Many of us have seen these before but I don't think I have posted them in here! I love the first one for heeling - but a pity he is limping - I need to get a camera so I can video him heeling properly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfmHaP4uIII And one shoey did for me not as good heeling - he was a bit 'airy' that day and I need to keep onto my pace - if it is faster he is much better :D

LOL - now i'm all geared up to start training too ! I'll have a problem with other dogs I think - I started biking the dogs to build up their muscles, but now going for the ET will give me something to strive toward

Hey Feralpup, Hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread - but it is now my turn to ask for advice - couldn't be bothered starting a new thread with the same name!!! Ok guys - I have a trial on Saturday - for some reason I can't get the fact that it is a title trial out of my head..... result is that I am already nervous!!!! I know for a fact that if we fail it will be because of my nerves!!!! !!! I don't know how to calm myself - every time I think of the trial I get butterflys (which usually doesn't happen to me until the day of the trial).... i've tried telling myself that I have 2 trials to get one pass, it doesn't matter if I pass/ fail, but i'm still nervous! What do you tell yourself to calm down other than you're being a stupid git!?

Hmm... it could be - or he could be stressed? There are so many factors that could affect it

Particularly in the lower classes!!!! I doubt i'll enter CCD again - the class itself is excellent, but I don't think I was in ONE trial where no dog broke..... Makes a difference for CD though - no dogs have broken (actually risen and moved) in my trials so far

LOL - yep - talking to the wrong crowd !!!!

LOL - Leo finds the group stays *extremely* stressful - don't know why - but in a trial situation - I guess coz of my nerves, he finds it tough

True - mistakes aren't always our fault.... but in terms of a drop - sometimes the signals are too quick/ too short etc,etc and it is not from lack of attention ..... For example - when I was training K. a few months ago - I gave her a drop signal and she didn't respond- it wasnt' for lack of attention and here I was thinking she was just a stubborn little ass.... but i'd never given her a 'shortened' drop signal before - always one to the ground..... so IMO, that one wasn't disobedience at all..... does that make any sense? What do you mean here - that you will give a correction to see if the dog really was confused or just disobedient??? How will you determine? Yes - I agree with you here also (why is it that you can word things soo much better than me !)... The correction can help clear up confusion - whatever the correction may be.... ETA: What do you define as an ignored recall?? For example - if a dog is in prey drive - do you believe that they don't hear you? Don't you hate it when something slips your mind! I had a question I wanted to ask you, but do you think I can remember!!! How do you yourself determine whether or not the dog is confused/ disobedient then? Furthermore - how do you determine when a dog *knows* an exercise? Just to clarify - i'm not an airy fairy trainer that thinks her dogs can do no wrong ..... dogs can be naughty and test the waters etc... and I will 'correct' appropriately - yet if they make the mistake more than twice, i'll begin to think they are not being 'disobedient'..... I'm just thinking that many people think their dog is 'disobedient' or naughty too soon, before trying to see why the dog may have misbehaved.... if that makes any sense.... Also - I still don't think that the dog 'plans' on being disobedient - which is where I guess my main want of discussion stemmed from - I don't think a dog stands there and thinks 'i'm gonna show her.... there is NO WAY i'm going to do that"..... but I do think that a dog will be disobedient along the lines of "soo.... what happens if I don't do it... "

LOL - I think we are thinking of two different circumstances perhaps. I would do exactly what you described given that circumstance - ie: place my dog in a drop while I get the other away. The circumstance I had in my mind is where I have my dog onlead and the 'offending' dog directly on top of him - very assertive, head leaning on my boy etc,etc.... I felt at the time (not a stay situation) that I couldn't ask my dog to do anything as that was more likely going to cause a fight - so while I still attempted to maintain control of my dog (through the lead) I was more interested in getting the offending dog 'out of the picture'..... does that make more sense? Another alternative for me is if I see a dog I do not wish for my dog to interact with me, I would try and maintain my dog's eye contact until that dog has passed - even if they sniff my dogs bum etc. I have found that the other dog will quickly move on if my guys do not give eye contact.... In terms of the 'stay' situation, I would be interested in getting the 'offending' dog away while 'reinforcing' my dogs stay if that makes sense - tell him to remain there while I get the other dog and remove it?? Agree with you 100% there! My dog finds it far more stressful in the group stays with a whole bunch of handlers lined up as opposed to 100 things going on around him.... perhaps they should change the context.... but that would be far too time-consuming ..... for them :rofl:.

LOL - nah - disobedience doesn't bother me - i'm just trying to see if people think there is an 'underlying' reason for it, or whether WE are the cause of the 'disobedience' :D The only time it bothers me is when people conceive a confused dog as 'disobedient' and correct it until the dog is too scared to do anything and is in an utter confused state :D

OK - so for Vickie's definition - yep - then i'd definately agree - dog will refuse/ won't obey at times :D. However - many a time my dog has been 'disobedient' because I mis-communicated..... say for example - missing a drop in heelwork coz my signal was too quick . There are definately some that are more/ less obedient than others.... I guess my 'resistance' comes up as I often hear trainers telling handlers that 'their dog is taking them for a ride' etc. etc.... in some cases I do agree... I hear a lot of people who's dog hasn't dropped and thus, they then must 'correct'..... I have done that before - then sat back and relised the dog wasnt being naughty at all.... just confused. The only problem I have with 'disobedience' is when we make it look like the dog had a 'pre-concieved' thought of being naughty . Just how strong is the 'pack structure'... I know that all dogs will go through a stage where they will 'test' the waters - but again - the jury is out with me as to whether or not they are really trying to elevate themselves.... or just seeing if the reward is 'enough' for them to continue to do what we ask.... if we dont' persue - IMO there will be some dogs that won't continue to elevate themselves above you, they just won't do their 'training' anymore.... LOL - fascinating, but confusing coz I'm finding it hard to write what i'm thinking :D

This is why I have trouble with this 'disobedience'..... everything else we can pretty much blame on ourself.... *the dog is not understanding coz we are not communicating properly/ timing is off *dog is not motivated because WE haven't found what motivates it the most *the dog does the wrong obstacle in agility because OUR body language was pointing them that way.... yet if we say 'sit' and the dog doesn't.... we immediately jump to the dog being disobedient.... this is where my mother has trouble understanding as well.... she always says - if the dog is not smart enough to remember that they dug THAT hole 5 hrs ago, how can you then say that they KNOW to be disobedient....... ETA - i'm not saying that all dogs are perfect - some dogs DO push boundaries..... but is it out of disobedience/ eagerness to work or something they have 'inadvertently' learnt along the way??

I've started riding with my two too! It is hard though when you have to come back from a ride and take the other :D!!! A tip - * don't run them too far or too hard on bitumen - run them on grass first to build up endurance (ie: around an oval if you can) and then onto bitumen - otherwise their pads may crack.... so start of small distances even if the dogs aren't tired.

Another question then - in your eyes - what is this handler like? Is she consistent? Is this dog normally disobedient or was it something just 'out of the blue'? True - but it is also testing how well your dog generalises IMO :D Very true :D. I'll give you a scenario - you are doing the same thing every week - no changest in body language etc.... but your dog WILL NOT hold a sit stay -is it being disobedient or is it something else? ETA - the dog has been proofed in all areas and *knows* very well what a sit stay is So what do you think makes a dog disobedient? Surely, if they can't join events and act out of spite - what is making them think 'i'm not going to do what you say'???

did you guys take your own dogs up there at all?!! What a herding workshop :D - we never got that :D!!! Ooh - I know where you went - lol - you were at myuna farm ! Great pics - who's the choc lab? Glad you had a great time - I heard it was very full-on

Erny - I think the post was mucked up - in the 2nd 1/2 of the quote you'll see their reply :D

Or is it just that we have not set our dogs up in this situation before??? LOL - if we have been asking a dog to 'drop' and especially now, during a drought they have never come across wet grass before, you can bet you will have some that won't do it - but I wouldn't classify that as disobedience in my book . But what if you can ask your dog to 'sit' only verbally everywhere else except with your back turned..... I agree with squeak on this one . Push the boundaries - definately - but what actually equates disobedience? We are taught (or at least I am) to let our dogs 'experiment' and try new things - sometimes this works for us and against us.... are we then allowed to 'punish' the dog for 'disobeying' when they are simply 'trying something new'..... I think this comes down to each personal opinion. But the more I think about it - almost every error that has been made by my dogs has been done by myself - I have been in a bad mood (sometimes without even realising!), tired, signaled wrong.... a whole variety of things. Lets face it - as humans we are bad communicators.... I am starting to feel that the dogs are not 'disobedient' but rather we are simply 'inconsistent'.... I had this discussion a short while ago as Leo was being a real git one day in training - my friend and I then came to the conclusion that Leo could possibly be picking up on hormones - I had my 'little friend' a few days later...... she said her dogs always 'know' when it's that time and their training attitude changes ! Lately I have been more and more 'skeptical' about 'disobedience'.... the only time Leo has been really disobedient has come to bite me in the bum! I am fascinated to hear everyone elses responses though :D

Something I've been thinking about lately. What do you consider to be disobedience? Do you think that it could possibly be just something that you haven't taught thoroughly enough/ in that context or is the dog honestly being defiant? Then comes the next question - we say that our dogs can't feel love, jealousy etc,etc.... and that they don't act out of spite - so what would make them want to be 'disobedient' just 'because'.... For example - 'my' dog "(hypothetical) *knows* sit - I can call out sit/ signal sit etc,etc and he will..... I call out sit when he is running - he will...... but if I call out sit and my back is turned he wont - is that disobedience, or just not understanding the context? If a dog sees a bird and runs full pelt afterward - you call him and he doesn't come - is that disobedience or an actual fact that he *didn't* hear you because he is now in full prey drive? I am just curious as I don't know whether or not our dogs are actually 'disobedient' or whether it is just a lack of training on our part. And a classic - which the jury is still out for me - you call the dog - they turn around, look at you and run off again - is that being disobedient, or is the dog merely 'checking in' saying 'you called, yes I heard you - back in 5'.......

hmm.... I don't think I worded it properly.... I dohn't mean dealing with it in terms of setting the dog up with the exact situation - but rather the 'distraction training' with NON threatening dogs walking over it, past it, giving eye contact etc. I would NEVER EVER set my dog up with an unpredictable dog. Sorry - I may not have answered that correctly. Also - in terms of the appeasement - what I mean is that I won't be asking my dog to 'come' to me or to 'stay/sit' whatever - I will just 'leave' my dog and worry about getting the offending dog away.... I just found that when I was in this situation on my own - if I tried to get my dog away a fight would have broken out so I had to concentrate on getting the OTHER dog away. I would never just leave them there and say 'well they can deal with it' if that makes sense..... but I wouldn't be asking my dog to do anything either but rather while i'm 'dealing' with the situation (ie: attempting to get the other dog away), they will be there too but 'dealing' with the situation in their own way, until I can get the dog gone.... does that make any more sense??? LOL - sometimes i'm hopeless at explaining myself! ETA: in terms of 'hanging out to dry' - I would never - trial or no trial do that - if I felt that my dog was in 'danger' - I would (if I could) tell the judge and retrieve my dog - or if I don't have time to do that - go in, release my dog and walk out of the ring..... I couldn't just leave them there if another dog was threatening them.... Don't loose hope in obedience trialling though as the situation does rarely happen - the sad thing is that when it does, news travels fast. I certianly couldn't give a rats ass for the pass if my dog is in danger and I think it horrible if anybody would wait out for their pass.... my dogs welfare is much more important. Most judges and stewards are very good also at quickly grabbing the dogs from what I have observed too..... so in all honesty - it isn't that bad

I am not sure if I have understood correctly.... but i'll try to answer. You are saying that for one of your dogs it would be detrimental to her confidence to stay in place and you would rather her break position? This I agree with you as I have been in this position before, just not with a stay - my dog has been on lead while walking and 'dominated' in an agressive manner by a dog at large.... I asked him to come and he flatly refused - good choice; as running to come with me would have started a fight. I guess at this stage we must leave it up to the dogs to appease the situation, which I think they are far better at doing than having us help.... but I do honestly think that giving your dog the opportunity to be able to 'deal' with a situation similar, will help reduce the stress should it ever occur. Does that make any sense? But then, should my dog ever break a stay, I have learnt the hard way that I can't correct him other than simply placing him back in position and starting again - do that more than twice and he switches off.... As to using us as a 'default' unfortunately, that is very hard in any stay situation as the dog must come to us first, which as you say - may be for the worse.... I don't know if I have answered the question, but if not - just ask again and i'll try again! Most judges and stewards at a trial, if quick enough will grab the dog that has broken a stay and intervened with another - if the other dogs break, you will have a 're-match' so to speak. YOU are not allowed to go to the dog unless told by the judge, but of course, who cares if your dog is at risk.... I would break and suffice my pass thank-you-very-much :p I only heard about the fight after it broke out so I don't know how it ceased, but I do know that no dog was injured. hmm.... what do you mean about hanging a dog out to dry? Sorry - I didn't understand that bit

Bow wow - what you asked just happened at the last trial I was at!!!!!! It is a big reason why I really truly think that unless you are 100% certain that your dog is stable on exercises (sure, they make mistakes, but at least you know they can do them consistently in training) you shouldn't enter a trial. Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't expect the dog to be perfect, what with your nerves, general mistakes etc,etc.... but i'd expect your dog to be able to perform the exercises with distractions and do the exercises fairly reliably. What happened is exactly what you describe..... one dog got up to sniff another and there was a full blown fight in the middle of the stays. ALL dogs got involved.... if my dog was in there, I am almost positive our trialling career will be over as both of them are fairly soft dogs and the stays are stressful for them - dogs will stare at each other etc,etc. The consequences if this happens will not be that your dog be put down, but you will get reported and you may not be able to enter another VCA (or ANKC affiliate) for a while (or ever, depending on the offense). My suggestion is to proof your dog to the worst. Set your dog up so that other dogs (that are neutral and won't aggress to your dog) may walk over it (with their handler), walk right under your dogs nose, drop infront of it (eye contact) etc, etc. Reward your dog heavily if they can stay under those circumstances. That way, if it DOES happen in a trial, the dog knows it is better for them to stay in position rather than react to the dog.... I hope this makes sense :p

nope - but it is heaps more fun to just keep doing the tunnel.... or walk straight past a jump..... or walk up to a jump, put your front paws on it and PUSH it off !!!! :p! He is quite a character ;).... ooh and another thing we like doing is having the dumb handler take him round the wrong 1/2 of the course !

Hey Feral pup - i'm going to Warringal (must put entries in, must put entries in ).... Just look out for me and the fuzzy blue dog - we'll be in Novice Jumping/ agility and you can laugh at our antics

showing are we? arya - tut tut :D I can't even hide behind 'but TO doesn't know who I am'..... but i'll be testing her (and mine!) memory though