leopuppy04

i'd also like to add - what do you mean exactly - can you explain the behaviour a little better?? Can you get ANY sense out of him????

Feral pup - isn't the trial a week and a half away yet? I've had some horrible training sessions with my dog on the week of a trial. Not to mention - the times we have had some great runs in training he has been horrible at the trial! So don't weigh up the night's performance on whether or not you should compete! I also find that our first run is usually the worst and following runs get better and better . Go out and have fun . I was nervous, but I came out of the ring after having a great time and usually with me watching the other dogs/ handlers go before me, I get antsy to get in there myself :D. Oh and in relation to the tunnel - come across that call-off TWICE in a Novice jumping trial - they like putting it in coz they are mean

LOL yep - I agree Tangwyn. Soo... just to clarify - I understood "correction" to be either harsh voice correction/ physical correction. LOL - my other corrections are merely a 'consequence' of behaviour . Tapferhund - LOL - yes I agree *completely* with you in relation to 'purely positive' whereby the dog has never been taught ANY boundaries and merely always taught an 'alternative'.... you can never get anywhere with that and yes, there always needs to be some form of 'consequence' to their behaviour Glad we are all on the same page now

My apologies then - My impression was that unless I correct (read: physical correction) my dog I will never be a reliable dog. It isn't a matter of nothing happening to him - if nothing were to happen, I completely agree with you that there is no way that training can progress. If my dog was to either not drop, do so slowly etc,etc.... they simply would not get their reward. Because the reward is so high - they percieve that as a 'correction' per se.... Not only that - they know that they get the 'best' rewards by fast, precise work. Usually I will also instill a no reward marker such as 'nup' or 'uh-uh' in a neutral voice to tell them otherwise. If they were to still misbehave - then i'd pack up everything and go inside - if they aren't willing to work with me, I am not willing to work with them. I'll either go inside or bring another dog out to train that one . Since they fully understand what their consequences are, they are quite willing to work for me etc. I do use voice corrections, but more-so in terms of bad manners. Usually if my dogs do not get it 'right' after a 2nd or 3rd attempt, there is something missing in the training 'link' that I have over-looked.

I did it a couple of times in stay practice at club (after the sit stays) - it helped immensely. never had to instill it for anything else though. Arya - you may be right - particularly because of her 'aggression' issues, she looks to you for guidance. Beacuse you are so nervous - maybe she doesn't kwno what to so with herself

Arya - i'm happy to volunteer :D. If you tell me where your next trial will be and i'm free, i'm happy to video you (lol - I can watch the open ring too and pick up some tips!).

Do you know - I wonder the same thing - Since i've had my 2nd dog - my older boy has been much more insistent and enthused about training - not that he wasn't before - but now there is COMPETITION !

Just reading back over the posts and wanted to add a few things. Firstly - Arya - is Tess stressed in new environments? I know that FOO was set up at KCC - but perhaps always having trials at new environments is an added stressor for her. But as you said - after having her out for a little bit and 'exposing' her to the environment certianly helped her. Perhaps next trial, rather than putting her in the car, try having her out in a crate or something where she can acclimatise to her surroundings? I think you said it is the traffic of dogs that concern her? Tapferhund - I see this as different training. Nobody has tried training this any other way??? But look at scent detection dogs - they are never corrected and are also excellent workers. I'd like to add that in the few herding practices I have had - you are never to correct your dog as it can stuff up their work ethic. I think that was what I was told..... (but I have hardly done any herdng!). I still fail to understand why this cannot be the case for a positively trained dog? It is merely that YOUR consequences are different to mine. My dog completely understands their 'consequences' of their work - but it doesn't mean I have to be harsh. I apply this to any breed mind you -not just aussies. What you say is a common problem and has nothing to do with training methods. It can also swing the other way - people can spend so much time practicing in highly distracting environments (eg: stays) that the dog becomes unreliable in quiet environments. Which is the exact reason why I don't correct in the practice. You practice how you train right? Ness and I (well I havent' needed to yet) will walk out of the ring if our dogs are not performing - they have then lost all chance of reward - and believe me - IT WORKS!!!! Same for Agility - some people with contact/ bar knocking issues, will walk out of a trial ring as soon as their dog knocks a bar/ breaks at the start line etc. IMHO - you have to keep in mind the trial situation and be prepared to blow a pass so that you have consistency in your training. May I ask how you would correct in the off-lead exercises? Keeping in mind that a verbal correction can be quite aversive to a dog that is trialling next to you? I know that in class situations, both of my dogs are particularly wary of trainers that yell out ARGH at their dogs all the time... it really puts them off. It also is not really allowing the dog to work to the level we expect in the ring.... and again - it will bring forward the next argument - if you can give a light correction - why can't we give a light praise also? I mean, in my mind - it should be at most 1 correction for every 10 praises.... after all - if you have to correct more than that, clearly your dog is not understanding the exercises. Tangwyn - this is not a reflection of the training method but rather the trainer itself. If they cannot get their timing right, ANY training method can be abused. ANY training method can be stressful. I don't deny that traditional methods work - they are incredibly effective.... but so is positive training - as with anything it is HOW you use it not WHAT the method is..... perhaps we should always stop bagging the 'other' method that we don't use and start looking at it saying that yes, all methods can work.... because if they can't - we wouldn't have so many deviations and everybody would be training the same!

LP, I take it, then, that you score close to 200 in obedience trials? Don't see what this has to do with whether or not your dog gets a correction. I am a novice trainer - i've been trialling for under 12 mths so hardly see myself as the expert . Many of the top dogs I have watched have been positively trained. My dog has not received 200 in any trial - but I don't think that is from lack of correction, even if it were present we wouldn't get it. There is just too many areas where you can loose points - add my nerves onto that and it is incredibly hard. I will say that every judge I have been under has commended me on my work with Leo, which is no mean feat for a first trialling dog. Tapferhund - yes I said my 'aussies' have never had a proper correction in their life. Likewise, I know that they are a different working style to GSD's in the like - very able and willing dogs and the aussies are so ready to do anything for you. My two are particularly soft, I don't deny that. So, in their case, a correction will ruin them IMO, as it will affect the basis of what our training has been built up on. Having said that - I am not saying that the next dog I train will never get corrected..... but I am almost certain that whatever breed I get, will only have to be minimally so. I correct for manners.... I don't correct for training in terms of say... a check chain. That is the way I train, no matter what breed I have.. I am not saying I won't use it, but I will exhaust all other measures. I'd also like to add that I have come across GSD's and like breeds that have been positive trained from the start and in all honesty, there is no difference in their consistency or work ethic when compared to a traditionally trained dog. You can agree or not - but I stand by the advice I gave to Arya and I am NEVER going to change my training techniques for any other reason than doing so for the dogs benefit......

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with this. Some of the most "shut-down", miserable looking dogs I have seen in a trial ring are purely positive trained. Correcting a dog for a behaviour it understands provides it with clear boundaries and, I believe, clear boundaries make happy dogs. Also, if a dog is exhibiting behaviours indicating stress or shut down giving the dog praise, toys or treats can only serve to re-inforce the behaviour. It only takes once or twice and there you go - conditioned behaviour. To me, your dog must be getting some form of reward or reinforcement for the behaviour it is currently exhibiting in the ring. Perhaps this is simply the fact that initially you tried to "gee her up" with a toy or food (reward for unacceptable behaviour) and now it is perpetuated by the the lack of correction or other disincentives. JMHO :D Interesting that so many people are against not correcting a dog Firstly - I said that for this particular dog I do not think that correcting her will work - as I have seen both Arya and Tess work. I don't think correcting is the issue. I am not saying to never correct a dog. I also don't know what the issue with 'positively trained' dogs are.... any dog trained by whatever method can be a good dog - it is all about timing, and the appropriateness of the reward/correction. My dogs never shut down and are always asking for more work.... IMHO - every time a dog has exhibited stress the way Tess does, correcting the behaviour DOES make the matter worse. Of course this all depends on the individual dog, but I believe it to be the case *in this instance*. My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there JMHO.

Hi Leopuppy, Do you achieve this by increasing the distance in small steps? If so, how do you increase the distance/time? By luring or other sneaky means the first few times, or does the dog just naturally go further/longer once they have the shorter distance/time down pat? Thanks everyone else for your comments. I'm not worried about different judging styles too much, but am always analysing my training methods, and this test made me question whether I was on the right track. Sounds like I am (as far as DOLers are concerned ;) ) I have one method that has worked wonders for me. I initially start with not even moving a step off at all. If your dog knows to 'sit' at heel - I would start with my left foot forward a little (helps them stand without having them confused . ). I would then get my dog in the ideal position - ie: right next to my leg, looking at me and focussing. I'd C&T and throw the food to my left. The dog then comes back in to the same position. I'll repeat this until they automatically come into the said position without being guided. Once they have this on board, i'll take 1 step forward before throwing the food away - wait for them to come back then go 2 steps C&T.... 4 steps, 10 steps etc. If they ever loose focus at any point - they get a 'whoopsie' (just a verbal no reward marker) and we go back to say.... 5 steps. I do this until I get up to around 100 steps in a straight line with perfect attention. So yes, I build up duration longer.... The turns i'll teach as a seperate exercise before putting the two together (as well as positions).... say for example, if my dog lost focus at around 50 steps, i'd only go back to 30 - not to the start!!! Does that make sense? I do the same for stationary positions - but more of 'successive approximation' - ie: to get the idea that sit means sit - I don't care where they are... but once they are well aware of what 'sit' is and are offering it to me, i'll only reward the better sits, and lure them if required into position. It has worked really well for me so far

DONT throw the towel in !!!! I've seen her work as well and I really can't put my finger on it! It is such a quick change-over. A few questions though.... *In training - do you have the food on you or in a bag? If it is in the bag, to you take that bag outside the ring? Can you send her to the bag using a command ("where's the biccies etc")?? *When you trained at FOO was it around people that she knew/ didn't know? *Are you willing to throw away MORE money and explain to the judges what you are doing BEFORE you go in and talk to your dog/ razz her up and throw away the pass (acutally don't know if you can do this)? *When you train at home, do you have someone else calling out turns etc? I have a few thoughts that she thinks in *this* particular set up there will be NO rewards for me, so I would set it up where she *expects* the rewards outside. *Keep up the training FOO style/ with other dogs in trial rings and strange judges etc. *even set it up at a trial to the point where you can reward really good heeling - leave the ring and then end on a MAJOR high. *record turns on tape as this can throw your 'pattern' of walking out so thereby making it more 'unpredictable'. *I also don't think correcting her will help - she shows 'displacement' - I don't want to be here behaviours and I think that correcting will only make it worse for her - she is already stressed enough that I think, particularly if she is stressed about dogs/ people, she needs to know that YOU are the safeguard and no harm will come - so just get on with the job :D! I am sure you have done all of these, but thought i'd put them out in the open 'just incase'!

For me - definately the lesser evil of the two would be Inconsistency - I would much rather my dog be able to 'do' the exercise without assistance rather than being manhandled there (with the owners assistance) - for example - pulled into the proper 'sit' position or held into 'heel' position by a tight lead (as many have said). IMO - the dog is not learning anything other than just waiting for you to put it into the correct position - i'd rather the dog figure it out for themselves, even if it takes a little longer..... coz lets face it - it may take a little longer to teach, but once they have it ingrained, it is there to stay. Having said that though - I have since learnt the hard way (ie: stuffing up my first dog!) and Inconsistency is still not 'good enough' for me. I'd rather take 4 steps while heeling and have PERFECTION than take 20 steps and have a dog that heels for 5, tunes out for 10 and then comes back in for the last 5 steps. All it is teaching your dog is that you don't *always* have to pay attention to me . I've done this with my younger dog and find that she picks things up quicker (could be the fact that she has more of a brain than my boy) and is far more consistent than Leo was at her age :D.

Bridgie cat - it was our novice title (CD)!!!! Thanks to everyone for the congrats! I must say i'm still a little taken-aback that we already have our CD having got our first Novice pass only 3 wks ago!!! Not to mention he gained this title with 2 1sts and a 2nd!!!! Ok - brag time over.... i'm just such a happy mum!!! !

haha - nope - I don't have a vid camera nor anybody to film for me

yes - we'll have to go back to practicing a lot of stays (sits) and recalls (and fig 8s!) as he was doing the same thing in the PM trial.... who knows - perhaps it was coz he was focussing on me so well in the AM trial before the stays (perfect focus!) that he wanted to come and heel?!!?! ETA: thanks for the congrats

YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! WE DID IT!!! WE DID IT!!!!! ;) Apparently the afternoon trial was a better shot (although his heeling was shocking in the fig 8 - lagging and missed a sit.... well that was the handlers fault for literally stopping dead when the judge called 'halt', not giving Leo a chance to respond!). But unlike the arvo - he decided to hold the sit stay Ended up with a pass of 183 (heeling is where he lost most points !) and 1st place!!!!! lol - I looked for you when I had put Leo back after stays at the AM trial but you were gone

The only other difference is that for CCD they are pretty lenient with their marks..... with CD - you are straight in with the 'big kids' so don't expect any leniency with scoring ! But I find the stays a lot more stable

I think I missed out ! Should have held out on the course until this time around - sounds as though you are all having a ball!!!!

Yeah, that woman really got offended when I told her that he wasn't making that much noise and they should have been able to stand it. He he. What silly old B$^#*%!!! Geez, the best distraction of all that day were the little pigs running around in their pen in the property next to the grounds. Hilarious! IMHO, balls, other people, animals, etc. are a part of life. Dogs sitting a metre apart is much more stressful for the dog than anyone outside the ring doing anything. Not to mention that these two incidents were at Berwick where it wasn't just a rope but a chain link fence between us and the competitors!! Probably just someone jealous of Leo Yes - I actually heard someone else say that it was most rude of the person who lived in the house behind for him to mow his lawns/ have his pigs out when he could clearly see there was a trial going on TO - CCD is like encouragement so you don't have to do it to get into novice. There are pro's and con's of doing it. If you are really nervous about how your dog will go in a trial situation - i'd recommend it - you have more control as your dog is on lead for heelwork & SFE, the recall is really short as are the stays. You have to return around your dog after the recall. The problem is that with the stays - a lot of the dogs (at the moment, it may change down the track) are unstable on their stays..... before I put my girl in - i'm going to keep an eye on the CCD rings - if they are still at this current level, I am unlikely to enter her and go straight into CD. The other thing for me is that my dogs actually (make that usually!) heel better off lead as that is how I train. Because I have to fumble with the lead - when they heel 'on lead' their turns are wider because of my hand movements to sort out the lead..... I don't know what sweepstakes are:D

LOL - the best for me was at a trial - Arya told me my she was asked if Leo was her dog coz he let out ONE whine (I know, coz I heard it) when I popped off to the loo.... apparently that was most unacceptable - particularly since they were lining up for stays :D someone also told me I shouldn't be rewarding my dog with a ball so close to the ring (at least 20mtrs away) as I could distract other dogs..... hmm... shouldn't they be proofed to that?!?! Unfortunately I can't use a tug as he is 'just not that into it' ;)

Nope - in my eyes - this *is* disobedience. Prevent him from walking away and 'make' him perform the task.... also - hide the fact of whether or not you have treats on you ;)..... IMO - he has just figured out he doesn't have to do what you ask him - and chooses not to - as the reward isn't there

Can I ask a quick question :D Of these dogs that do zoomies - what is the handler then advised to do for the next stay? Are they then closer to the dog so that they can correct the behaviour? It is a relatively strange exercise - when are we ever going to have our dogs in a 'stay' with us standing there in front of them? I think that they should set up the stays as a far more social exercise in trials - they could even continue the group exercise for example - having the dogs in a group stay - one owner take their dogs and heel it past the other dogs (or maybe even fig 8 through the other dogs - depending on level) while the others stay - and then work down the line.... or at least do something a bit more practical ;)

ROFL - yeah true - one where he is pampered and doesn't have to work for his food! I think so Jules -it is playing at the back of my mind!!! good memory

well...... - you never know! And I wouldn't have gotten my title :D (gawd I sound like a title hunter :D )!! Do you think it would help if I told Leo that if he doesn't pass i'll take him to the shelter???