leopuppy04

Cosmolo - i'm a great lover of your posts - not only coz you can explain things so well, but because it always makes me nod my head in agreement too!! Perhaps not - but that would be funny to see so what did you use as a reward? I admire people who continue to train with these dogs - boy do they make life tough! Yes, I agree 110%. For all my singing on positive training, I have used aversives before and *do* know how to use them - with the exception of a prong as i've never used one before . Again - I agree - Kinta also when she first came to us was a little 'nervy' - just at that age and so many things changed for her. I think she took a great deal of confidence from me taking the head role and not accepting any of her 'nonsense'.... she is infact so much more confident with me than anyone else in the family At the risk of sounding like a broken record, why is it that obedience isn't as rewarding as agility/tricks? Isn't obedience just a whole bunch of tricks joined together?? This is where I love Arya's anaolgy - i'd like to train to the point where I don't *need* corrections of any kind because the dog loves the work so much ... Is it the running of agility that makes it more exciting? But then, Leo goes nuts for trick training, and he doesn't move any more than he does for obedience In all honesty - I don't have any huge reservations to e collars (ok, ok, get up off the ground now ), or correction collars etc, etc. I'm just (as i've said many times this thread) confused that the dogs 'let us get away with it' while we can't with other animals.... perhaps it is the strong pack drive... as the horsey people have pointed out - it is exactly the same with horses ETA: dogdude Funny - so many people seem to draw this, yet i've never had that experience... perhaps i'm more of a 'traditionalist' than I think??? Or I just have really lazy dogs JJ I don't understand - can you elaborate a little please JJ?

You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though?? ;) Something like this . LOL - personally I prefer the brick walls - means I have to carry around less....

For me, when the dog does the right thing it always gets the reward, if it didnt, what would be the point of it doing what I ask? I'd smack myself over the head with a heavy object for allowing my dog to be in a position where he can choose to disobey me . You sound like me!! What is your favourite object to hit yourself over the head with though??

Just in the instance of getting the dog completely onto a normal collar - you have to wean them off the weight of the collar so that they will be just as reliable with a normal collar. But like you said - if the owner is happy for it to be permanently on - there wouldn't be an issue

Out of interest what do you do? It varies - hence the question . If they were on a lead - i'd do exactly as you said. If they were completely off lead - I'd do a variety of things.... *If I knew they were completely safe - i'd call them - no response - i'd go and hide... praise them when they find me but not make a huge fuss. *If they were going to chase something they shouldn't - i'd call them back and put them on lead before them charging off.. perhaps even a verbal correction if they were seriously thinking about it... *If they were running off somewhere and I could catch them without them coming back to me (or engaging with me) I would correct them, then put them back on lead.. If they *did* run off - i'd then practice lots of short recalls for the rest of the walk - praising heavily for coming back ALL the time. The next few walks they will be back on a long line for ah... about 2-4wks. I don't know if what I am doing is right or wrong, but I can say that my dogs have very reliable recalls.... there are huge rewards in it for them. I usually also don't say the word 'come' until they have engaged with me. We also do heaps of recalls during a walk also.

What I would do - and assumptions are that the dog knows what come means. Dog runs towards the target, I give a comand, it gets ignored, the dog gets to the end of the long line and gets a correction on the collar, of if I was using the ecollar it would get the correction on the ecollar. Dog returns - heaps of rewards. Would you still reward after giving the correction or not reward that one? What if the dog was off lead completely and no e-collar??? Would you use one of those sound things that emits a sound aversive to the dog? I'm just thinking that with an e-collar, you have more to wean off- ie: the weight of the collar also... Is say dogs have a extra strong understanding and bond with human packs, I dont think dolphins come anywhere near as close to humans as dogs. But would this also mean that they are more 'accepting' of what we dish out for them? JulesP - good point - I don't know if dolphins do correct each other.... perhaps that is the definitive reason as to why it can work on dogs/horses....

Oh - I thought they only did things such as exclude from pack etc, nowadays? - I'll stick to my knowledge of dog training then shall I?!

Mrs D - in no relation to the thread - how would you correct a dog for not coming when called? I am genuinely interested as I find this hard to follow through as you can't obviously correct the dog once it has come back to you . Would you verbally correct it or what? In all honesty - my training is not much different to what you all are saying - except for the absence of a check chain - but even that I will use if the dog needed it. Perhaps we are all achieving the same thing, but having different ways of saying it. As for what myszka said: If my kid made the same mistake 3 times - I would say that they wouldn't understand it. The only reason I use this concept is because it is from personal experience. My maths is rather poor. I always used to get 'corrected' for mistakes (no, i'm not talking about getting smacks), but it wouldn't help me - i'd still get the same mistakes. I wouldn't in class, just in homework. But then, if I got it right - I certainly wouldn't get any praise..... I completely understand what you are saying about balancing the two. In the case of kids - I wouldn't pack up and go home... if they got it wrong - i'd say - nope wrong, do it again.... if they still get it wrong - i'll explain.... if I know that they know it - they can't leave the table until their work is complete (ie: fun stuff taken away).... Mrs D - sorry - it was the best analogy I could come up with.... something that doesn't hurt the dog/child, but has a -ve effect to a certain degree? Anyway - back to what I really wanted to discuss.... How come it is that we can correct a dog 'physical corrections' yet it fails on all other animals.... why does pack structure allow us to do this.... Dolphins have (I know i'm talking wild here) strong pack instincts yet it doesn't work on them - or is that simply because we don't understand the species enough??

then why say this? Because I was trying to highlight that I don't mean fear as in running away and hiding, but merely having a 'fear of the unknown'... Because i'm not talking about the child being told 'no, do it again' - in which case I completely agree with. I'm talking about a child getting smacked for getting a question wrong..... Too true - and that could happen no matter what method you use . Again - please - i'm trying to not make this a heated topic. Just merely fishing for opinions Arya: Agree completely Exactly what i'm trying to articulate but not getting out properly Again - I agree completely. I'd try walking away first and if that doesn't work - perhaps a correction is warranted as the dog isn't engaging with you.....

oops - missed this bit. Horses - definitely pack driven.... cats - IMO yes, in a way. I think certain species show their pack drive slightly differently to a dog though.... and her dogs do not show any signs of FEAR. I do not mean 'fear' as in running away and hiding.... but I would guess that the dog would 'fear' the unknown - just not show it.... play on the concept of a little bit of stress is good.... does that make more sense? I sort of dont understand the above. My dogs are pet, they are taken for walks, they are to perfomr basic stuff of come,stay, sit etc. I also do some obedience - is this what you have in mind? Than I ask - how is the dog to know the difference of a sit at home before I open the door as oppose to sit in the ob ring. Or better still - why would I want to bother teaching this separatelly. Lets see if I can explain better - for general manners - ie: jumping up on the table/ jumping up on people/ pulling on the lead I will instill verbal corrections. but for things such as 'obedience' - come, sit, stay etc - whether in the house or in the obedience ring I don't correct as it involves the dog 'engaging' with us and doing what we ask.... the rest IMO is teaching boundaries.... If I asked my dog to sit before coming inside and they didn't - the consequence is simple - you don't get to come in. If my dogs don't sit for their dinner - simple - they don't get their dinner.... but I won't verbally correct etc.... does that make more sense???

lets say my dog loves to chase ducks, I call the dog doesnt respond, so I pack up and go home, - yes my dog will go home and will chase ducks each and every time we are out. You might say - keep the dog on lead - ok, the dog will lunge towards the duck and will get corrected, will it not? Which is why I highlighted at the start of my thread that I was talking specifically about 'work' mode only. At this point, the dog is not working for you - so yes, it is HIGHLY likely that i'd do exactly the same as what you would do to correct the dog for this mis-behaviour. I'm specifically talking about if you ask for a 'sit' and the dog doesn't etc.... Ive got no idea, I have never trained another animal. What other highly domesticated animals are you talking about? Horses? pigs, cats? or did you mean non domesticated ones like dolfins? Cats, pigs, horses, chickens, rats etc. Domesticated animals . Again - I do want to point out that IN NO WAY am I insinuating that if you correct a dog it will be scared of you/ unwilling to work/ traumatised for life. Many 'traditional' trainers have said to me that they correct when the dog doesn't 'sit' because they want the dog to 'know' what happens if they don't do what is told (yes, I agree with that!), but they also want the dog to 'fear' what happens if they don't do it. I earnestly hope that no-one thinks I am bagging their training methods - i'm honestly trying to gain further understanding.

I think you have misunderstood me Mrs D. I am not saying that it is wrong. I am not saying that the dogs that are correction trained are scared of their owners. I am most certainly not saying that the way I train is the only way to. I just want to understand 'why' and the reasoning behind why particular trainers choose whatever method they do. I also certainly don't think that the methods don't work.... I know for a fact that they do. The door swings both ways - I constantly get the same questions about my methods also. I guess I ask these questions because I like to know as to the reasonings behind the methods chosen. I am also under no means saying that anybody who 'corrects' has a fearful dog either!!!!! I know that that would be so far from the truth it is just ridiculous.

Thanks for your response Myszka. Of course - I am in no way insinuating that if you correct you certainly don't reward.... LOL - that would be the same as reward with no 'consequence'. I guess if you have a hard headed dog maybe you may need to correct.... I'm just surmising from my own experience, my own views etc,etc. So - rather than correcting if you were to 'no reward' the dog, pack up and go inside - do you think that your dogs would get the message or simply say 'hmph - who cares anyway?' It is still confusing to me as to why we feel that we can 'correct' a dog, yet obviously can't any other animal....

Sorry - it is my terminology again. I'm talking more of corrections - as in a loud and threatening "Ahh" or a physical correction :D. Of course - in training I will use a 'no reward' or a 'nup' if the dog has done it wrong - otherwise you will get nowhere in your training. I don't see myself as a 'purely positive' trainer as there are consequences for behaviour.

Just curious and not willing to spark a huge debacle . I know there are a few 'traditionalist' trainers on here. For those of you that are - have you used positive methods (I know many of you have)? Why have you chosen to continue with 'traditional' methods? Have you ever 'trained' any animal other than a dog? Now - I am not talking about general 'correcting' - ie: manners and general 'bad behaviour'.... i'm talking about correcting while in 'training' mode. To me, correcting a dog while they are working for you in my mind is like slapping a kid across the wrists if they get a maths question wrong. Sure it works, because they have the 'fear' instilled, but they only do it out of fear. Also - why do we feel that we *can* correct a dog.... I mean - train any other animal and correction gets you nowhere but frustrated (not talking wild animals here ). Dogs are so malleable that they will let us do literally *anything* to them. Would you correct a dog while teaching a complex behaviour (eg: getting a drink out of the fridge)... from what i've always been taught - that is a complete no-no as the dog will shut-down/ get confused.... so why do the rules change? Again - i'd like to point out that NO I am not saying that you should never correct your dog - because I do firmly believe that when a dog is misbehaving they need to be 'corrected'. I'm also not saying that whatever method is right or wrong - just merely trying to gain understanding. But this is what I struggle with - how can we correct an animal that is 'working' for us.... ie - obedience training..... NOT jumping up on the bench and stealing food I hope I have explained it properly :D

Me?! :D LOL - LL - what exactly are you after - purely positive or just 'using a clicker'? I can see what I can find.....

What? This trick??? LOL - I used the sticky tape - use something like duck tape- it doesn't pull the hair out :D. C&T when they "touch" the nose.... i'm still working on duration If I blew in his face I got this response:

Hi LP Initially I did and I think this has compounded the problem. It's not what I'm doing in the ring now but what I was doing in the ring before and she hasn't forgotten, being the smart girl she is. I did expect her to but now, I just expect to get SOMETHING good during the run through. I hope to see better heeling, or a good stand for exam etc. etc. I guess it's true to say I don't go in there expecting to pass at all, or even do reasonably well at all. Do you think this might be a contributing factor? Could be. Said friend had a similar problem with one of her dogs. She said that if she went into the ring thinking the dog *may* stuff around, or 'how long until she switches off this time' the dog invariably would! She said - all that did was confirm in her mind that whenever they went into the ring/ let the dog off at a particular park, it WOULD do it. Do you think you can change your vibes at all now? Positive thinking???

Arya, I was talking to my friend about this thread (via email!)... she came up with a few theories. Just wondering - when you go into the ring - do you 'expect' her to misbehave? Do you think 'I wonder how long until she arses off this time??'

Precisely. I often use a 'time out' if that is what you want to call it, when a dog is becoming too rambunctious. Not really as a 'training' tool but more so to stop the dog from building up even more into a nuthouse and also to stop me from letting my top blow off ! I don't think it modifies behaviour, but it does 'calm down' or rather 'diffuse' the situation. So like someone else pointed out - they use the beds as a Time out.... thats what I use... Erny - while I think the toilet is a great idea - I just had a mental image of the owners then deciding they needed to 'go' but couldn't because the dog was in there .... not the whole concept of the idea true, but once it popped into my head, I had to giggle

Yayy - I was just saying to Ness I was bored :rolleyes: Did you want a paw or nose target? I hope CTD doesn't mind - but she has a great vid of Tia learning to target here: Ok - but for the breakdown - I like using a target object initially. Your hand is good but I find it harder with the paw . Does your dog know how to shake? If so - it is easy - ask for a shake and C&T them *moment* his paw touches your hand. But don't grab the paw. As soon as you click - move your hand away and then start again. Once they have the idea - hold off on the command shake and just offer your hand. If they offer the paw, C&T, Jackpot and then repeat (only don't jackpot the 2nd time round. When they have it down pat with you simply offering your hand - start adding a cue such as "paw". For the nose touch - have your hand in a 'different' shape to when you offer food. For example - I use a closed fist - as I don't want the dog to be constantly touching my hand when I have food! Don't pester your dog with your hand - bring it out and if they don't do anything, put it behind your back again for a second or so. If they look at your hand C&T. If they orientate toward your hand C&T - if they sniff, C&T.... gradually increase criteria until you have a deliberate 'push' against your hand. Don't cue anything until they are doing it consistently. This is why I like to use a target stick as it is something novel - so the dog will normally naturally orientate toward it so you can quickly reward. With a hand they may be confused because you may have previously taught them to 'leave' food etc. Once they have the behaviour down pat on the stick, you can then ask them to touch pretty much anything including your hand - just make sure you go back a few steps first :cool:. Once they start to get good - move the target stick around like CTD does with Tia. In terms of the paw if they don't know how to shake - use the same principal, but hold the object down lower - toward the dogs paw. Reward any PAW orientation. If they go with their nose - just give a simple NRM (no reward marker) so they know that that wont' get them the reward . A good object for this is a plastic lid of some kind- eg: one you use to cover tin food I'll see if I can video mine tonight :p.

Agree completely - There is waaaay too much distance between the lead and halter for my liking! Not to mention - puppies haven't finished growing yet.... older puppies (read 9mths +) I wouldn't mind but definately not under 6mths!!

Actually that is a great idea - and one I never thought of I think that perhaps it will help her re-gain some confidence and if nothing else - help build up great teamwork!!

Just to be a pain (and get you guys to love me even more ) can I just say that both of my dogs, once accustomed to the halters are two happy pooches on their halters - and are able to be trained on them ;). They also regularly visit a chiro and have had no ill effects to the halters. Having said that...... I *do* agree, but IMO - it is all in the hands of those who use them! 90% of people don't know how. Just like check chains and the ilk, they simply shouldn't be sold to the general public ;)

Just to put out a *pro* head collar thought into the mix (although I don't disagree with a lot everyone has said!) *Monie - some dogs just don't 'jive' with the head collar - so if YOU don't feel comfortable using it, don't! No one says you have to *While the halter can be a little aversive, I still like them as *when used correctly* it makes it so easy to regain control and begin 'management' training. It allows you to have the right moments to reward etc, without constantly fighting the dogs. I have used halters on both of my dogs and some stage in their life. I have been able to wean them off no problems, and not lost any of the behaviours I have built up with the H/C. The key is, like any training tool - knowing how to use it appropriately and what dogs to fit them on ;). Trainers also need to know the RIGHT way to fit them, which most don't! But just like any training tool, they are incredibly useful. *just like a check chain - anybody can own one - which makes it incredibly hard as people who should never have one do! *Personally - has anyone ever had a young pup fight the collar and lead? I always saw this as a common problem initially. So for a dog to fight a head collar (new collar and lead) isn't that weird IMO Have PM'd you Monie ETA: I'm a lover of Clicker training, and I find it a great way to communicate in ALL aspects of training including LLW ;)