leopuppy04

Thanks for the links Sieta - I couldn't run a 'search' yesterday :p. K9: So how do you know when you have actually 'triggered' drive as opposed to just 'wanting' the toy or food?? Ok - but even in drive, isn't the dog striving for that end reward also?? Thanks

I was under this impression too. I've only read the OP - so I don't know where this is up to - but here are my views. As most of you know - I prefer not to use 'corrective' tools on my dogs ie: prongs, e collars and correction chains. BUT I do recognise that in the world of dog training each tool has their place and I don't think that the prong collars should be banned. If you get a response from a dog (again, because of the 'bans' in Vic I have not used one so my thoughts may be a little rusty) in 1/2 the time using a prong than you would a correction chain - IMO it is better for the dog than longer, harsher, drawn out corrections. Of course, i'm not saying that you should correct the dog into the next universe, but i've seen many dogs who in fact need IMO far too many corrections on a check chain. I think that they should be brought in but ONLY IF they were available through trained professionals who could offer continuing training and advice, not only for the dogs training, but for the use of the tool aslo. But then, I hold this for most tools - halters, check chains and prongs. I would definately NOT want to see them for sale over the internet or anywhere easily accessible by people who don't know what they are doing. Just my thoughts

Links......

Ok - complex process that it is - is someone able to give me a concise or rather summary of what 'drive' training is then..... I don't think I fully understand the type of training you are all talking about just yet . K9: K9: If you surprise the dog with the toy you will build in problems for later work... Are you able to elaborate please???

Hmm... nope wasn't me Arya - don't have the DVD. But my question is HOW do you/ did you train the precision, with a toy (be it 'drive' training or not). HOW do you get as many repetitions as you obviously have to have a game with the dog and toy to make it worthwhile etc.... It is not that I doubt the method, but rather I just don't know how to get the precision should I want to use a toy to teach 'heel' for example rather than food..... I know how you can build on the basics, but how do you develop the basics with a toy alone?

You are like me Ness... I like to use variety between different toys/ different food and of course between each other. I almost always teach a new behaviour (be it agility or obedience) using food, hence why I am curious as to how to get the same precision with a toy..... I know I would struggle . At the end of the day though - my two will drive for the end reward - be it food or a toy !

I know many of you on here do 'drive training' - which I must admit, I know little of, so don't know if I incorporate any of this in my training, but thinking about it i'm sure I do..... I was playing with K last night with the tuggy and then doing a few bits of obedience before playing tuggy again (so nice to have a dog that TUGS!). It got me thinking - does anyone teach a precision type sequence with a toy - ie: a good 'front' or a heel position? What is the process and how would you teach it using a toy? I'm just curious as I LOVE using toys to build up enthusiasm and often have toys hidden in my jumper etc that just happen to 'pop' out when the dog has done the right thing. It certainly helps me get SPEED in their work. But for a completely 'clean slate' dog who has no idea what 'heel' means for example, how would you teach it using the toy alone? Also - do you always use the same toy or a variety? I find that as soon as I pick it up (in the back yard) it becomes their favourite - doesn't matter if it has been sitting in the yard all day and not a special training toy - if you have it... I WANT it Myszka - I know that you were talking a while ago about your 'glo' toys not 'glowing' for long.... did you find out a way to build up the 'glow time'??? I am awaitng my glow orbee ball and trying to think of ways to get it to 'glow' - I thought I had a great idea last night - thinking of the fridge light, but forgetting that the light actually goes OUT when you shut the door .... my excuse is it was late, I was tired and my brain stopped functioning

Hmm... with Leo - if you stormed up the stairs he got really excited and would bark at you - we just rewarded that but got a speak in first. Kinta - she was harder - I didn't want to reward barking when I was playing with Leo (she barks to get me to throw the toy.... hang on.... so does Leo ) so tried asking Leo to 'speak' repeatedly and see if she will follow suit.... she did, but wasn't definitive about it. In the end I was doing some 'free shaping' with her and out of frustration she barked at me so I C&T.... worked in all of 5 mins.... it has taken me since then to teach her 'quiet' and that NO you don't need to bark *every* time we do free shaping

Exactly - but it may go back to get those chickens An electric fence won't work. When the dog is in 'drive' their pain receptors are 'dulled' - so although he may feel the shock, he won't react as he would if he were not chasing the chooks. I'd spend the extra money (those fences are expensive aren't they?) and build a nice, safe completely dog proof yard/ run (but one big enough for him to be in while you are out - ie: not just a kennel run).... perhaps even have the fence going underground so he cant' dig out Expensive, but it will be worth it in the long run

LOL - well done Gamby - haven't seen you around the obedience rings lately . Yes - Yildiz has HEAPS to brag about! She has done brilliantly this year also

Oh boy - do I have brags . I have probably posted them all individually, but here is a collective of how our year has gone. We finished 2006 - with 2 CCD passes and a couple of fails due to the dratted sit-stays :D. March 2007 - we began our obedience trialling career with a bang - 1st trial out (Southern) and we walked away with 2 CCD passes, only needing one for our title.... equal 2nd and 1st respectively but on countbacks we got 3rd & 2nd. A week later we went to our last CCD trial and walked away with a score of 97/100 and a 1st place . Went straight into novice - failed our first trial with pure bad luck (shook in the SFE) but he then came back at our next trial to gain 2 passes and our final pass 2 weeks later.... so we achieved our CD title in 3 weeks - with 2 first places and a 2nd place . Now taking a break, but I'm missing obedience, so probably going back to start open training on Sunday. As for agility - at our 2nd agility trial we achieved our first Jumping pass with 2nd place.... again on Saturday - we achieved our 2nd Jumping pass and 3rd place. It was unfortunate that we didn't have more passes (and our title!) as Leo just 'clipped' ONE bar in the other 3 runs . We'll see how we go at Sunbury. I know everyone is probably sick of hearing me brag, but I am just SO proud of my boy - couldn't have asked for a better dog to introduce me into the 'dog sport' world . As for Kinta - she has only been showing - 1 MPIG under her belt and a rather boring 6pt challenge..... I am sure she has much more potential though as she gets older and more mature. Astroboy - well done on your endeavors on the weekend! Looking forward to hearing more!!

Does she look at you when she has a 'gay' tail? What else does she do? I am thinking of when I had to do some training with K - who pranced and heeled in the ring (this was before she even knew heel!) coz she was just *so* happy to be out and about I found this to be a big help http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/confgait.html

I thought along these lines too, LP ..... but given tail carriage is generally the result of an involuntary emotional (rather than a voluntary conscious) state, I would be thinking the dog is more likely to simply pair the "reward" for the gaiting than for the tail carriage. Hardly any harm to try though, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on its success. Just my thoughts. True - I did think of that - but thought it was a good idea to get out there anyway - lol - I am sure tails are the hardest part of a dogs 'body' to 'train' coz as you say - it is linked directly to emotion!

Can you C&T him for a nice clean stand - go right back to basics - only treat him when he pops up immediately. also - make them more fun - get out that mousie and reward with that every time he does a nice stand?

Erny - not really - if the dog is 'structurally' correct and only has a 'gay' tail because of excitement - it doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong. A dog that is structurally incorrect - wouldn't be able to hold the tail down no matter how much training it has had . Also remember that they are being judged to the 'ideal' standard - no dog is going to fit that perfectly. For example - one might have a bad front, but by grooming and stacking you can hide that (until the judge puts their hands on the dog ). Dogs in the ring will always have a fault of some sort :rolleyes:. It is a matter of deciding whether or not the fault is 'big' enough to deem it 'pet' quality. For example in the border - the 'gay' tail may be less of an issue than poor movement. To the OP - is she holding it up on the move or in the stack? Perhaps do some gaiting practice and C&T when the tail is in the right position? That way you are C&T the correct 'gaiting' performance...... Just an idea - don't know if it will work or not??

Awww - don't tell me that TH - you mean it's 'in the family' She is related to Spotlight.... umm.... Great grandmother or something??? LOL - gets too hard to keep track sometimes :rolleyes:. Kinta is Leo's niece :rolleyes: I'm glad leo didn't take that 'genetic trait' though ! Kinta does it with purpose!

Thanks BC lover - but as I said - this is my original method but unfortunately doesn't work for K. Apparently keeping my hands still works much better??? She would either ram me of rock back and sit too far away with the hand movement :p. Yeah- i've done a little bit of work with him - targeting is our next thing - I usually am too stuffed to train ANYTHING at the moment (which is why i'm in awe that Leo has done so well as since winter has kicked in, training has kicked out!). Monty is quite good - he is a food hog and is pretty good at luring but is great on the clicker :D... it is fun and gives you a new perspective -there are sooo many more things you can get away with a dog for!

I think the latter. Actually - I have been told by numerous people (I my training buddies :D) that I am running back waaay to fast - so now that I have slowed down - she is bumping less :D

LP, get in line, I am Ness's bag carrier, travelling companion and worshipper of the Border Collie. Aw - c'mon now - everybody knows i'm the most fun to be around :D

One hungry - clicker trained kitty and guess who comes to watch :D .... LOL - yes - increasingly hard to train during the day (or at all!) in winter - but I do get some daytime training in on the weekends With food in particular or just simply reward so often? Kinta is only *just* learning the 'heel' and we haven't done any training for AGES so she was getting HEAPS of rewards. Also - coz what she was offering me was exactly what I wanted.... I'm also using a method that I used with Leo whereby I work on straight heeling before adding turns etc, and that has a high level of rewards to begin with - ie: just sitting in heel position - reward, 1 step reward, 2 step reward, 4 step reward, 10step reward....etc.etc.. (well after you get to 10 you increase by 10 step increments). For Leo - he doesn't get rewarded half as much ;). In terms of using *food* rewards so often - coz I find it easier - once I release her we then have a play with the toys or just razz her up, but because it is a real 'game' I don't do it till after releasing. As for me moving - I didn't even realise!! LOL! *Runs off to watch vid again*... WMR: :D JulesP I really don't want to do this as Kinta stresses quite a bit when someone leans over her. She won't do anything, particularly if it is me, but I don't actually want to do it to 'teach' her something simply because I know she finds it aversive. I just train her that it is 'ok' (for judges etc), but thats it....

She looks lovely - well done Jodie

LOL - I always say 'ready' to gee them up too - LOL - when the judge asks 'are you ready' I always reply 'ready' - someone told me it was like telling your dog 'ready set go'... it works a treat . I always say get it for tossing toys, tugs etc.... not sure about food - probably do coz it is so ingrained Hmmm Ness - when are we going to Perth??

LOL - she aint bumping my hands .... bumping me somewhere else and i'd rather she didn't

Is the military flip the one where the dog flips to the left hand side of you or where the cross behind you and finish from the right side to your heel position/???

Just tried it Pax - keeping my hands lower caused her to nudge more "(ie: target hands).... but not moving them and keeping them at stomach level worked - she just tilted her head back and scooted in thanks for the help!!! I'm still not a happy camper though - working from home and she has just trashed the yard :D PUPPIES! Who wants them!?!?!?! ETA - Arya - thanks - that was the current method we were using - It worked fine for Leo but caused her to either 'nudge' or 'rock back'... moving slower etc, didn't seem to help.... Pax' idea of keeping my hands still seems to have done the trick - am still interested in hearing other ideas though... But after what I just found in the yard - i'll be considering adoption - you may want this one Arya - she is more focussed than Leo - special bargain price???