leopuppy04

hmm... I mean both sides.... whether the correction is present or not. I don't really mean as to whether a correction is counter productive as I do feel that it *is* situation dependent - some dogs do gain confidence in a stressful situation from you taking the lead. I mean a dog that does 'crumble' a bit when pressure is put on it, either by confusion (handler or dog) or under any type of pressure.... I just want peoples opinions as to whether they think it is simply the dog's temperament or the handler..... I don't mean weak nerves in the sense of external stimuli, but strictly a training sense.... sorry - I don't know how else to explain what i'm thinking .... *tries to think of example* ETA - ok here is the best example I can think of (albeit it is probably not very good!).... You are doing distance work with your dog..... the dog goes down s-l-o-w-l-y into the drop..... it is not being disobedient or testing you - you can see that it is 'unsure' of what exactly you are asking from it..... alternatively - you ask the dog to 'drop' and it won't... or initially make the movement to and decide against it - pure confusion written across it's face.... no steps have been missed in training...... is it because the handler hasn't clearly defined what is right/ wrong..... or is the dog just merely sensitive? Of course - the more you do, the more confidence the dog builds up.... Another example - same scenario although this time the dog knows the behaviour...... you ask drop and it goes down quick, but not good enough to earn the reward..... you repeat.... still not good enough - the dog then on the 3rd time goes down slower as it is unsure now whether the behaviour is right.... OK - these are REALLY bad examples.... I'll try an agility one..... you are doing an obstacle discrimination. You ask the dog to go through the tunnel (tunnel and A frame set up next to each other) and the dog doesn't do either. It knows each obstacle but chooses to 'not do either' so that it won't get the negative of getting it wrong?? Have I confused you more or does it make more sense??? I've confused myself now!!

Just wondering - would people say that there are 'sensitive' dogs out there? Sensitive in the sense of training - not in terms of unsure of the external environment around them.... For example - you have a dog that is 'unsure' and not willing to make an error. They gain confidence the further along they go in training, but if unsure they would rather 'not do it' than get it wrong.... Is this dog merely a 'sensitive' temperament or is it not 'guided' properly by the handler? In your mind, if you had a dog like this, would you say a 'correction' or 'force' to get the dog to do it would help it, hinder it, or dependant on situation?? What of another dog that is confident in what it does until the 'handler' becomes confused - the dog then slows down/ lacks 'confidence' because of the vibes it picks up from the handler?? I'm talking about a dog that is completely confident in all other aspects of training and lifestyle. Would you say these so called 'sensitive' dogs are the result of lack of leadership or is it just the dogs temperament? Obviously a clear definition of right and wrong can also help the dog gain confidence - but in your mind what would equate to a clear definition??? Would you also say this is dependant on the dog? Of course I know that this is only your opinion, but I am really curious to hear what you have to say . Hope this makes sense!

Let me guess - you just get blank stares from him saying "what on earth are YOU on?!?!" Leo can do that to me too.... particularly if I have a tug . if you drag it on the ground will he get excited about it? Will he run out to get food? Is he a foodie? What is his ultimate, best thing to play with aside from you?

*ponders*... hmm... he likes to make it hard doesn't he! What do you mean he 'looks' upset when you put your finger there? Does he then try and 'avoid' the d/b next time round? Does the reward he gets for 'holding' the d/b (with your help) far outweigh the slight negative of you placing pressure on his mouth?? How are you trying to encourage him to chase objects? Kinta was a 'toy, what toy?' type dog and now she is an absolute nutter for them??

What do you mean as using food all the time? I'm a strong believer that a dog, once the behaviour is learnt shouldn't be rewarded EVERY time. Having said that - i'm probably more like the first trainer - i'll reward with food. I bribe with food only when the dog is initially learning the exercise. Main reason being is if you don't ask for a sit until you have food in your hand - the dogs will quickly learn that that is the *only* time it is worth it for them to 'sit'.... So yes - I will 'teach' the behaviour with food, but after that the food becomes a reward and the dogs don't know when/ where that reward is coming from. That doesn't mean that they hardly get rewarded - in fact, they probably get rewarded more using this method.... quality over quantity.... In answer to your question, i'd stick with one method and keep it consistent - otherwise your dog might get confused etc

A bit OT but does Leo still have that great Kong squeaky ball intact? I got Tess one yesterday and she promptly worked out where the squeaker was positioned in the ball and punctured it, even through the tennis ball material!!! Then (and I can't believe she did this) she tried and tried to get it to keep squeaking and when it wouldn't she lay down on the floor on her side and refused to play with any of her toys at all Learned helplessness??? Or... a kiddie tantrum. The latter, I think! So off to the shop for a more robust one if I can find it today ROFL - yes he still has it coz he only gets it at training - A tennis ball with a squeaker is his ultimate reward, so he only gets it when he has been REALLY good (ie: gaining his CD title) ;) ;) ;) Funny story though - Silly Tess! I did get Leo ages ago one of those cylinders with a ball in it - took him 30mins to work out how to get the ball out - despite the packaging saying the dogs would 'never' be able to get it out!

What book is this??? Ok - I would have used the same method they have used here except for ONE MAJOR THING! You don't need to C&T 12 times for the nose touch! Your dog now thinks that is the behaviour! The one problem with clicker training and shaping is that if you stick on a behaviour long enough and reward that, it gets harder to move forward because of the 'reward success' of that behaviour! So every time they say however many times to C&T disregard that and do it until your dog seems to 'understand'.... if your dog is clicker savvy - maybe 2-5 times! She is too eager to get the food if she is spitting it out IMO..... and also to get the click . Sooo.... *try gradually increasing the time she holds it..... only by a mili-second.... you may be extending the time too quick. *Will she chase it if you throw it? Pick it up? If yes - do a play retrieve and then run away so that she will (hopefully) run after you with object still in mouth - reward that *get really excited if any interaction with mouth and object..... c&t if pick up and hold briefly *while moving it around in your hand - perhaps try and introduce the word HOLD as she grasps down on it - C&T that - then gradually increase time between the command HOLD and the C&T hope that helps

OK Ness - what's the secret? Leo loves barking and nosing the metal but won't pick it up as it is 'too cold' Honestly - don't dangle the bait without sharing the 'know how'.... otherwise i'll stalk you till I get it out of you ;) I made the same problem as Ness - not raising the bar 'fast enough' with Leo's retrieve, but he is working well now! Always comes down to the saying 'great dog, shame about the handler' - luckily I for once learned from my mistakes and Kinta's retrieve is running a lot smoother than Leo's was ;) Jules - have you tried a play retrieve? Doe he retrieve *anything*? I found a play retrieve really helped Leo and then shaped the 'present' as a seperate exercise? Can you tell us what you already *have* done and perhaps we can offer further suggestions? Where did you get up to on Shirley Chong's retrieve?

I use a blackdog one - until the clasp broke and it won't stay open anymore.... www.blackdog.net.au SO now I use a bum bag when need be to keep treats in them as well as a toy for quick reward. The blackdog I use on walks when getting the treats out isn't so important. Dogs cue to rewards being on hand with the bait bag on real quick so like arya, coz I trial my dog, I usually train without and use pockets and target bags (external containers for reward)...

;) - after all the help I gave you too!!!!! :p :p :p Well - we all know you are lying anyways - Aussies are the best dogs ever Hmm... in terms of the trial - I'd give them a call - I have an inkling the whole day is 'breed specific' coz the Ch show is and from memory so were the other events Might see if I can find out for you ;) ETA - Just asked a Aussie friend - she said it is breed specific ;)

It depends.... For example - the Dally club is running a trial in Vic later this month and it is an "All breeds" event But then I went to a Working dog club obedience trial and that was "Restricted to group" Basically there are 3 types of trials - an "All Breeds" "Restricted to group" or "Restricted to breed" This will say, either in the gazette or the website where they are listed. RTG means that the dogs of the same group (gundogs, working etc) can enter - associates I believe are exempt. RTB means only the breed can enter Picking on the ASCNSW are we???

I agree - I thought I wanted a nice laid back dog when I got Leo and boy was I wrong! He is still a 'go get 'em ' dog - nothing I would consider inactive or 'low drive' - he has tonnes of that, but sometimes you need to work for it ;) After getting Kinta though, she is so much like my old Kelpie girl that I didn't know I missed that type of behaviour so much! I love the 'feralness' of her ;) - although it is frustrating at times (read: ripping up bedding, digging holes.... ).... Although Leo is everything I asked for at the time, I don't think I could go another dog with 'lower' drive or activity than him, and like I said - he isn't a lazy bum! Lets just say - 'I like 'em nutty and feral with an evil glint in their eye'!!! :) :p Ok -now I hear you all saying 'sucker for punishment' - :p :rofl:

oh - I wasn't thinking on those lines at all - I was just trying to see where you were coming from considering I know so little about both trainers. The thing that worries me about all of these training DVD's though and shows like 'it's me or the dog' and when it was on 'harry's practice' - is not what we as 'experienced trainers' can get out of them but what the 'inexperienced' take away.... the amount of things that can be misinterpreted and ultimately harm the dog is astonishing. All you have to do is walk around an obedience class and see the many ways that each person can interpret your directions.... at least they have you there to help them out - a DVD won't know when you are 'fobbing' it Erny: so true! But that would apply to any correction, reward etc... So - to clarify things.... what *does* Milan advocate and what does Fennell advocate?? ETA: Tassie - my sentiments exactly! It often is forgotten about when to reward a dog because after all - they are doing exactly as you would want them to do - lying quietly on a mat, not barking outside, not chewing your shoes, not pulling on the lead etc,etc, etc.... selfish creatures that we are - we fail to reward that as dogs in our minds *should* behave like that naturally - I try and live by the rule of 10 positives for every negative. I guess that also means that when the negative is applied it is 10 times more effective as it is in 'stark contrast' to what they are used to

Would you not say though that in relation to the constant positive vs traditional debate that every method no matter what type would have 'some' form of aversive added to it?? IMO - without any form of aversive you would get nowhere..... I don't know much about either trainer so can't comment on the differences here, but can totally see how the 'use and abuse' could apply here. If you wanted to take the 'ignoring' stance... I am sure many people would pull out the duration for longer than what it should be..... but no matter what type of aversive you use, they can all be effective if used correctly wouldn't you agree? Be it check chains, halters, ignoring, voice or whatever - why? Coz it points out in black and white what is correct behaviour and what isn't.... thats the way I look at it anyway..... ETA - I hadn't read through all posts yet. ROM - interesting point you make there about removing the dog from the stimulus. I can totally see that as working the 'other' way ie: reinforcing to the dog that it's behaviour is in turn getting itself removed from the 'thing' it finds 'offensive'.... but would you not say that by keeping the dog (on lead) in that room and simply ignoring it while it carries on (this is without knowing the degree of aggression here - i'm talking mild - just a grizzle, bark, growl etc) and then removing it/ rewarding it once it has 'settled' ok or is this not what Fennell recommends either??

Two very different training methods which you will find throughout dog training. I think the main reason is that they both work. It is up to you to make a decision about which type of method you would prefer I guess Good luck with your sisters dog - @ the denial

Two very different training methods which you will find throughout dog training. I think the main reason is that they both work. It is up to you to make a decision about which type of method you would prefer I guess Good luck with your sisters dog - @ the denial

Interesting. Another thought - while I think the dog has to naturally have the drive for food/pack/play/prey or whatever combination, I think the handler/trianer/owner also plays a big part in bringing this out. Many of the dogs at club that are in my class would be defined by their owners as 'low drive', but if I take them, they are bouncing to do some work etc . There are others with very competent handlers that just toss their nose up at what you have to offer. If the dog has some natural drive, I think it is up to the handler to be creative and willing to try new things to bring out that drive etc. For me - i've been very lucky with my dogs - both are reasonably high drive.... Leo less than Kinta, but the drive is still there, just expressed differently. I like my dogs to have a good 'drive' in different areas though - food, toys and pats etc. I guess it is also about knowing your dog. Yours might be 'intense' on something, but because they are naturally calmer, won't express their drive for it like the livewires would

Does this mean you have news to tell ????

I think it is food and prey drive/ play drive I don't think there would be any dog with such low drive about 'everything' though - would there?! ETA - from what you have told me and the vids I have seen - I wouldn't class her as a 'low drive dog'.... but she does sometimes turn that switch down really low from what you have told me

Ok - i've been 'ordered' to answer seriously, and in doing so - I must say that I can only answer from my 2 (rather driven) dogs and observation Ok - to me there are really two components to drive. You could have a dog that is really driven by *everything* or a dog driven by rewards - either a particular type or many. My definition of a low drive dog is one that would give me headaches trying to train! It wouldn't have real motivation and drive toward food, toys or attention..... while you could try and bring this out to success of some degree and even perhaps get to competition level in whatever sport, you will never be able to truly harness that as the 'natural' drive to whatever you are trying to use is not there! For example - Leo is not a big tugger. You offer him a tug toy and he won't really take it. I've worked with him to get him to tug, but always after a run/stint in the ring, he doesn't really want it. We have gotten to the stage where he will eagerly tug before a run/ stint in the ring, but not after. So although I may be able to build up the drive for the tug, it would never be complete drive as it isn't something that he naturally wants. A high drive dog for me is one that pretty much sees the world as a big huge 'game'.... they tend to be fast, quick on their feet and keen about *everything* or perhaps one thing in particular. They would go to the ends of the earth for that one object.... say.... a tennis ball. They make training easier to a degree as you don't have to think about 'what' you are going to reward with but more, how are you going to harness it! That is the hardest bit IMO! To me - drive isn't driven by breed and I wouldn't seperate them like that. It is driven by how they see those rewards. And yes, I do think that a dog can be really driven about one thing, but couldn't give a flying toss about something else. From my somewhat limited experience - drive is something that you can 'build up' in a dog. Certain parts of a dogs temperament needs to be there already (biddable, speedy, active - whatever).... but in order to get the drive really working for you - it would be something that you have to 'harness' and 'train'.... with Kinta, and even Leo now, I spend some evenings just harnessing the drive and playing with the toys/ food etc to get them to really *want* their rewards - keep them high value etc. If they really want what I have to offer, the work they offer me is 10 x better. In a lower drive dog- I would do the same in terms of setting up training sessions - quality over quantity... make the dog 'want' to learn and 'ask' for it. So in saying that - I might break for a while and while we are training train only little bits and a 'good' session once a week max. I wouldn't drag them out every day to do the same training style - ie: heeling for obedience.... but we might do some form of training each day. To keep the drive up - I would reward often - the higher the dog gets in their obedience/ agility - the better the rewards are.... they drive for what they get at the end and not in between etc Gawd, I hope this was answering the question

Sooo - maybe Ness is lacking the dog training drive but has oodles of PhD studying drive !

Are we talking loose lead walking or heeling? In terms of LLW (coz I think this is what is meant).... try penalty yards. Start in the house: Have the dogs dinner set up and walk say - to the other end of the kitchen..... if your dog pulls, go RIGHT BACK TO THE START! No matter where he pulls from. Yes, even if he pulls say 3cm away from the bowl - go back to the starting point. Keep repeating until your dog can LLW up to their dinner - you get what you want by doing what I want :D Once you have mastered this inside - then practice out in the yard, fron yard, down the street etc. But above all - the main thing is to be CONSISTENT

yep - sounds pretty inconsistent to me. Depends how close the dog when he got the refusal was though. I think it is pretty silly to cop a refusal coz the dog 'glances' at you though!

does anyone have a dog that doesn't react to the lead???? Maybe it is coz I have inadvertently done what Erny just said, but neither of mine go spaz when I put my shoes on, grab the lead etc. They get out at least once a day and if I wasn't going to take them they would have something to say about it! ;)! I thought I just had 'weird' dogs who didnt' get excited about walks

I won't be there - not ready for open yet ;) I thought i'd be smart and book into a show so that I could watch top dog in between the show..... but the show is at the showgrounds Good luck and as D4F said - breathe and don't stress - the worst thing that could happen is your dog could behave like an absolute git..... but just remember you still take the best dog home!