leopuppy04

Hmm.... As those have already said - I see it as both 'genetic' and 'environmental'. I'm one of those that can't see it without the other - in cases such as 'shyness' I think a lot of it is a result of both that you can't necessarily separate from the other. Of course - this is not always the case, but I think it plays a part. A shy dog will need to be handled differently.... so our way of 'exposing' them to their environment during socialisation may have heightened their response rather than decreasing it - all of course unintentional. There are dogs that are socialised to everything under the sun from day 1 and are still naturally shy. There are dogs that are well socialised again, but one bad experience can set them back months. There are dogs that are never taken out of their back yard until about 12mths old and are still confident about everything in the world! Part of it would be breed dependant, and say - breeders (whether registered or not) misunderstanding what the 'standard' says..... I'll use an example I know (keep in mind this is hypothetical).... The aussie standard says that by rights they should be 'reserved with strangers'. This does not mean aggression nor 'shyness'... to me - all it means that your dog will not readily go up to a 'stranger', but if that stranger were to pat it, the dog wouldn't back off. The dog might be slightly more 'reserved' when the master is not there. But, that is only MY interpretation. A breeder may say - her brood b!tch runs away from strangers when they come to the door and won't greet them for 30mins straight - but that's ok - it is just the 'reserved' nature of the breed. I am not saying one is right and one is wrong... just pointing out that one word can be interpreted 1 million ways. So - from that point - a dog that 'temperament' wise is not suitable for breeding could well be used..... the result could be a few shy dogs.... again, who are used and eventually - the problem does become genetic. BUT - can we really separate the two? I do believe that puppies react in the ways in which their mother shows them - part of this during the 'critical period' so it is likely that they may always be a little bit 'shy' of one thing or another because their mother is..... To me - I can't separate whether or not it would be genetic or environmental.... but I will be able to say, in some cases whether it be MORE genetic or MORE environmental - but with that you have to look at other relatives, litter mates etc JMHO

ooh - count me in!!! I think this is an excellent approach to dog training!!!! I mean - i've already tried it.... except - I have some trouble shooting - every time I "diss" my dog - they turn their backs on me and lock themselves in the closet !!! Anyone know how to fix this??? :p :rofl: :D

I think mainly spinal injuries from the twisting..... and possibly front impact injuries I guess it depends on how the dog 'weaves' too...

I love 'plum white' - its purple, and smells really nice. The whites come out really clear too

I know there are a few scattered around - but thought I might start a thread for those to post video's they have made of their pets.... basically a compilation of videos and photos. Here is mine

From what you have said - although it is unlikely to be as much as what you would have done if you had taken her home at 4mths - I would say that this could be adequate. She has had time out, interaction with other dogs and people and as you say - not phased by anything (I wouldn't be concerned about the car - lots of dogs are affected by this)... can you take her on a trial (assuming this is why you are asking for the opinion)?! She sounds pretty well adjusted to me, and if you keep going with the social (after giving her a week or 2 to settle) i'm sure she'll come forward in leaps and bounds

*sigh* - over friendly dogs can be a pain at times.... apparently EVERYBODY is their friend! I found this really helped me - along with having a great recall..... Firstly - with him going up to say 'hi' he has just been rewarded for 'making a break for it'.... eventually (from experience!) this break will become earlier and earlier until they break before you even SEE the dog! The best thing I found was to get my dog to 'ask' to see the dogs. This means - focus on me and 'sit' before saying hello (the release is usually a 'say hello' command). I do this for anything of high value for them which involves running like a mad chook As you do at the moment - you may want to start with them on lead. I didn't as I didn't want them to associate the lead coming on with a dog approaching (more reason NOT to come).... but having said that, I knew I would have good control of my dog off lead. I initially started to ask for a sit as soon as I saw the dog (the dog might too) but before your dog is close enough to break. I would then keep rewarding (and I mean KEEP REWARDING) the dog for sitting and 'focusing' on me. I may not make direct eye contact with the approaching owner (watching my own dog) but will ask them if the dogs can meet.... if they agree, I will wait until my dog is giving me eye contact before releasing to 'say hello'. I will then not call again unless I am 110% sure my dog will come back, but I WILL shower with praise and food every time the dog 'checks in' (wow - mum is GREAT).... this helps keep your recall command and not waste it while the dog slowly tunes out Gradually I will decrease the distance between approaching dog and asking mine to sit (I may have to use a 'leave it' in there- to remind them) and am now at the point where I can walk both dogs past another without saying hi unless told (well.... except when it is a dog they know well) . I use this same concept to be allowed off lead etc. Hope this helps ETA - just read that your dog may refuse food - couple of suggestions: * use that ball to maintain focus *use super yummy treats such as BBQ chicken, cheese, devon etc ;)

Funny you mention that Rappie... I have heard many people look at the BS chard and say - Oh that's mean - NOBODY could keep their dog at the supposed 'ideal' weight - you couldn't feed them *anything*..... whilst I understand that it is difficult to loose the weight off the animal, I find it surprising at people's misconceptions of what a dog should look like! That's interesting - i've not seen that before! I must be naughty though - my dogs get cheese, devon etc as training treats :D - but then I do ration it out of their dinner and try to use 'healthier' options

What do you mean by 'not socialised' - at all - or out in the big wide world? Note that this is my very inexperienced opinion. BUT - if this dog has been adequately socialised around the house etc, so it has had 'learning' during those 4mths, then maybe it would be ok. It really depends on how it reacts around the place especially once removed from it's familiar home. I got Kinta at 5mths old - she had socialisation and lots of it, before I got her, but not to the extent that I would have done had I taken her home at 8wks. But my belief (and I may be wrong) is that because she had social during those 5mths, she was able to adapt easy to new situations. Initially when we took her home, she needed a little longer than a baby pup to 'settle in' and did give us a few 'suprising' responses to new environments/ new situations, but she always recovered quickly and adapted well to situations. Since I have got her, we have been doing lots of social and just plain taking her out everywhere and meeting all kinds of places and people (therefore not missing out on what I would have done had I got her at 8wks)..... I am happy with her progress and would say that she has a fantastic temperament. She isn't nervy or worried, but she is a one person dog and takes a lot of indication from me. IMO that is her temperament and not because of anything else. So I think it depends on what you mean by 'not socialised'. If it has been locked in a room for the first 4 mths and not had anything but a bit of a pat from the previous owner, I would say no.

Sure- I think I hold my dog back. Being a very inexperienced trainer and only having trained 1 (now 2) dogs I think I am holding them back. If I were to give Leo to a more experienced handler who didn't fumble around when they are confused, I am sure he would have progressed much faster and probably would achieve much more than I ever will with him (having said that, I have high hopes with him). BUT - part of the fun of dog training is trying to reach both you and your dogs potential.... together! So if we don't get our Masters agility or our OC, I don't really mind as I know that what we have achieved is the best that we could achieve as a team together :D

I agree with this. We seem to be analysing every little thing that dogs do now, and putting meaning behind it rather than "it is because it is".... This results in people becoming confused and in turn, doing so many differing things that the dog becomes confused! From a trialling perspective, we are told to do so many things in a set way that in my mind, it can sometimes take the fun out of it. Make sure that x dog is not looking at yours in such a way as it will make it 'not perform' in the ring.... the list goes on. I'm not saying it is WRONG, but rather, we are starting to think too much! I see this happen with human psychologists too where they try and analyse every little thing. I guess it has its positives and negatives, but I for one am of the mind 'the simpler the better'...

A valid point - but I think we also must remember this - sometimes people come home from walks and such 'fuming' about it and thus will post in General. OR, as you say, they are 'inexperienced', something has happened that is out of character and they don't stop to think of how to deal with it, but come straight on DOL to ask the 'experts'. Unfortunately, as with everything, there are so many variations and alternatives to training that you may often walk out more confused than not. I have posted a few threads when I was all 'hyped' with DOL that I latter look at and wonder "and the point of that was..... " :D I don't think it is just general 'inexeperience', although that does play a big part, but also the 'inexperience' of a particular situation. Having said that - the more experience you have, the more you would be able to look at things with a level head etc. Again - I think another part is that people on DOL like talking to people as nutty as them

My vet is fantastic - he knows the body score etc- and is often spot-on in terms of whether my dogs are ideal or not. Of course as someone else said - weight is not everything, but looking at this dog, I don't understand how they *could* be saying she is 'ideal'..... Rappie - were you taught how do body score or was that something that you picked up over the years? Do you think some vets are just too shy to state that 'Fido' is carrying a few extra kilo's?

Visiting friends on the weekend and had a great time with their 7yo BC who I have known since she was a pup. Was speaking to her 'mum' who said they were initially concerned about her weight, but the vet had told them that she is fine as she had stayed 'consistent' over the past few years and therefore is healthy.... To put it in perspective: This dog would be about 50cm - the same size as Kinta.... She weighs 23kgs Kinta (albeit 13mths) weighs 15kgs atm, but wouldn't be over 18kgs once 'filled out'. She is at idea body condition Leo is around 57cms and weights 22kgs - but should weigh around 23... he has lost a little condition. Having said that - most people think my dogs are underweight as you can feel their ribs. They are on the 'lower' side of 'ideal' but definitely not underweight.... The BC's ribs can not be felt, she has no waist and is all around OBESE! Since I last saw her, her activity level has dropped considerably - more than what should be expected with age! Do people actually know how to body score???

not me - but i've heard good things! Nice grounds though Good luck and enjoy! Consider yourself warned that agility is a HIGHLY ADDICTIVE sport!!! People go in - but they don't come out again

Hi HM - I wonder if you had the same judge that I had for Novice one day - who told me I shouldn't need to 'praise' or 'play' with my dog between exercises as he didn't need it..... lol.... I'll be at the Gina OKeefe seminar too - just look out for the crazy person and her 2 equally crazy Aussies I tend to agree on DD for the stays. I still fail to see how it is more 'risky' putting your dog in for stays (given that they have worked well) if they are on a NQ. If your dog has steady stays - I would put them in for the experience of being around different dogs etc. Like DD said - it all comes down to proofing. We can't baby them every step of the way. An attack may happen at any time and I guess we have to be ready to interfere when need be. I mean - the dog could rush over from the neighbouring ring and go your dog while heeling! Having said that - if my dog weren't stable on the stays - then I wouldn't enter the stays as I don't want to set them up for an opportunity where they won't succeed. Like you Ness - if my dog ins't performing, I will walk out of the ring no matter what i'm up to Just my 2cents

basic training and play games started as soon as they are settled in their new home. Nothing serious until they are ready and i'm ready

They still might do Tassie as they are still focussing up all the time. It is interesting isn't it. What i've always been told is to keep sessions short, keep the muscles strong with lots of tug games and heel (and tug!) on both sides to equal the muscle mass . Ness - we have had a few of those chicken/ egg situations too!

Out of curiosity PF - what do you consider a 'wrap' - where the dogs head is completely wrapped around you, or one where the dog is looking up at you?? Do you see any difference between the two??

just the usual cheddar cheese. Give Leo brie and there is waaay too much drool to clean up

LOL RF - I have two things to say here . First - that avatar of yours - I was *dying* to get that up before but it wouldn't let me as it was too big .... how funny is it! second - your same problem is what switched me onto chiro's. I was told my dog had a lux patella when it turned out that his hip was out!!!! honestly!! LOL! Great to hear that Ness :D - so she wasn't broken after all

I did the course..... but haven't made a career of it as yet - it's a big step as to be a trainer you pretty much have to be out on your own . I don't see why you couldn't though - they provide you with all of the information - you just need to have the 'talent' and determination to do it I guess :D

Hiya Kismetkat Congratulations on participating in your first trial! Who cares about the pass or fail I've been in a few trials now (a few to know a bit, but not that many) and in all honesty - i've only come across ONE judge who would not elaborate or be friendly to me in the ring. Everyone else has been fantastic, praised where praise is needed and offered advice where that too is needed. Mind you - I prefer it if they do this at the end and not take too long as otherwise the dogs switch off.... but I do appreciate it all the same! I even had one judge come up to me after presentation to talk to me!! I thought that was absolutely lovely - and he *did* have a lot of valid and useful points! I don't think they are as bad as they are made out to be

I really need to hunt up some Susan Garrett stuff - I love Greg Derrett Stuff, but am yet to see SG

I think they would Leo met his litter sister at 12mths that he hadn't seen since he left the breeders house - I didn't even know it was his sister - but the way (both of them) responded when they saw each other made me think maybe they *do* remember? We were at agility - the dogs met at the start of class (briefly) then went to separate sheds...... We couldn't get any sense out of either or them