leopuppy04

Good idea SW - Leo is also on the lookout for a "NOVICE" SP partner.... he jumps 600. He isn't super fast, but runs at a nice steady pace and is consistent...... Anybody want to run with Leo??? We go to most Metro agility trials

I could just be that his back was out of place and you putting gentle pressure 'clicked' it back into place.... Has it happened since?

Thats cool KK - usually when the question comes up - these are usually what the handlers missed out on . A judge will usually tell you if the dog 'breaks' while you walk away and perhaps end the exercise (happened to me once in the SFE - he HAD an itch *sigh*) I think it was the drops - as she dropped the first time... then the judge would have taken off a few minor pts - but because she did it twice - then it was a NQ ;)

When you were walking away from the dog - it may have gotten up and sat again?!?! That is a likely occurence? Did you say 'wait' when you returned around the dog?! Did it come on first command? Did you say it's name when you called it?!

haha - Kinta has to be 'well hidden' when I have Leo out otherwise - you won't only see her, but i'm sure you'll HEAR her all the way in the Melbourne CBD She was quite good actually... enjoyed her Kong and when she was out thought the polite way of greeting people was to jump on them "Hi!!!!" and then wiggle her stump.... a few people commented that they thought it might take off It's funny that they had the legs under the table - I was talking to a friend and her dog was distracted by it too! In the PM trial they removed them

I absolutely love this thread! I think it's great for people to brag about the minor things their dogs did - from giving them a cuddle (for a non-cuddly dog), playing with a toy (for a non-toy motivated dog) or just plain being GOOD! I remember before I trialled, I used to get so proud of my dogs, have nothing to show for it, but think it 'worthless' to tell anyone since they had achieved far better things!!! So keep them coming and congrats to everyone! My brags for the weekend.... Leo usually at agility trials will tug before we go into the ring, but wont after. On Sat- he had a ball - tugging both before AND after his run . Made me sooo happy! Second brag - took both dogs (via train) into the city today and they were SOO good - didn't bother anyone on the train (their first time on) just slept at our feet and took it all in their stride... behaved really amicably and they were just a pleasure to take around

LOL - lucky Leo didn't hear you say his name - or we might have been asked to leave the ring for dog 'attacking' steward He did run very nicely - just a bad handler that pulled him off the jump ;) - I can't believe you didn't stay!!! I mean - you have been out all day helping and setting up and didn't want to stay for cuddles - shame on you ;) Says me - who left before the trials were even finished Congrats Silvawillow - Go Kira - I *knew* one of your dogs had more passes

Yes - it works best if you separate. The aim of the clicker is that for every treat there is a reward - so if you are concentrating on only one dog - you should have the other away so they don't get confused . Also helps in terms of not letting the dogs get confused with who you are training also

Just got back! Hi Rexy - sorry I didn't stop to talk to you after the trial! I couldn't see you afterward (and we left early - no luck in the PM!), and sorry I didn't 'communicate' concentrating on dog :p Hmm... not sure if I saw everyone there but here is a run down :p. Silvawillow got 3 passes today?! 1 NA pass with Blush and a 3rd place, 1 with Kirra in Snooker.... and I think another with Blush?!?! I saw TO run in the AM, but didn't catch up with her (haha u missed out on feral Kinta cuddles :p ) hmmm.... who else did I see..... I think that is it from DOL. It was a good day, with quite a few passes too . Leo got his first ( ;) - took him long enough - about 7-9 trials!!!) novice agility pass.... he usually likes to do ONE thing wrong and give me an otherwise beaut run, so this time he put it all together and gave me a great run. Ended up with 1st place and 25secs under CT ;) :D. All his other runs were NQ/ DQ because the handler cut dog off or didn't call off to early :p Kinta came along for some social cuddles and liked to mug every man and his dog with pretty much the typical "LOOK AT ME!!! Pay attention to ME!" Aussie style..... aren't they meant to be reserved ?!?! Looking forward to hear more ;) Oh - I got there fine Rexy - you're right - took me 'bout an hr ;)

I'm coming from Croydon area - but if you can tell me how far from Cranbourne or similar that would be great

both my dogs learnt shake hands as a basic 'puppy' behaviour (first trick we taught them) - they never offer it in the middle of a sit. Once you have it on cue, just make sure you don't reward it unless you asked for it and you'll be fine

how far away is hastings anyways - i've never been there before!?

Which Ring Rexy? I'll be there with my Aussie - should be interesting Still tossing whether or not we can fit 3 people and 3 dogs in my car, or whether I should leave Kinta at home I think i'm voting for leaving miss feralness at home

Sure is - come down to Croydon and have a look - I'm there almost every week - www.cdodc.com.au

Hmm... i'm confused - did you mean this comment: What I mean is if they are 'reinforced' enough for the curved jump. So say for example you 'clicked' (and using the theory that every click equals a reward) and every time rewarded from yourself, if the dog 'cut' and you still clicked, people are (or feel) compelled to give the treat anyway. To get myself out of that situation - I will throw the food if I click the jump, or hold off on the click if I want the 'front'.... same if I was using the yes. So I don't see the 'rewarding' half efforts In terms of what I said with verbal markers - that I guess was to say that this form of 'bad' training is not isolated alone to clickers. For example - those that say 'yes' for a good drop but fumble for the reward and reward the sit. So the dog eventually 'drops' and sits up again immediately. I guess what I was trying to draw was that the position of the reward is not linked to clicker training alone, but is also true for other forms of training. A dog may anticipate a reward and if they are not rewarded for it, they won't repeat it (or repeat it for long).... but in the clicker example, if they cut the broad and you already clicked, so rewarded (because what happens after the click doesn't matter) the behaviour will eventually develop into a 'curved' or 'cutting' jump IMO. I was trying to point out that in cases, what happens after the click *does* matter (ie: agreeing with NW).. I think i've just made that more confusing

How can you not?! Coz i'm left handed!! LOL - I watched the video and got it right..... eventually.... maybe I'm just Frisbee challenged Dogs did really well actually - Kinta caught it a couple of times while it was rolling. Leo loved it too

Not always - sometimes it is the 'anticipation' of the reward, and if that reward is consistent enough - they are 'reinforced' for the 'cutting' of the broad or the constant sitting after a stand (because they have moved from the initial position). Keep in mind, this isn't solely for clicker training only - it happens with verbal markers too

Isn't it interesting that even within one training style, there are so many interpretations for it. Some of which I think are both correct..... My primary example for this would be 'heelwork' where position is vitally important. I've had to think a bit for this and yes, I think I did reward position first (ie: this is the spot for heeling) and later resorted to food throwing. Same for introduction of turns etc. So I guess the times that I throw food from the beginning would be - as you say - parts where the drive might be part of the behaviour. I was thinking about it all afternoon and I do think that in the initial phases they are rewarded in position first. But having said that - I still like the 'food throwing' and see it as a great tool for my training as the dog has the opportunity to come back into position for reward etc. The points I see where this does become an issue for example - would be in a situation where you aren't throwing the food (ie: dog is still rewarded immediately and is 'retrieving' the reward, similar to that or a thrown toy) but rather fumbling for the food in which the dog has already sat again or walked away or dropped.... so the food would be connected to *that* behaviour. In my food throwing instances... the dog has offered me nothing else to get confused other than to 'retrieve' the food the same as they would a toy.... does that make any sense? Well the way I taught it - the ring was initially on the pole and naturally the behaviour ends with the ring on the pole..... so in that instance they are running 'away' from the rings etc. When we are on multiple quoits they are still only getting the reward at the end.... but I do get what you are saying - throw the food and then they see the ring and pick it up 'on the way back'.... This makes sense - Think of the dogs that cut the 'broad jump' in obedience - simply because the reward comes from the handler.... so they cut it to get to the reward faster. Throw the food out and the dog will jump straight first. Another example would be my girl 'sitting' every time after she heard the click for 'stand'.... result was a 'stand' then sit immediately after the click. Totally agree with that Arya - what works for one - doesn't necessarily work for another

Closer - but still not quite. You got me thinking though . Sometimes the cue is still not present.... for example - the phone book - I get them to place their front feet on the phone book and once they are doing that reliably - I will throw the food so that they can come straight back onto it. Initially - if they look at the phonebook I will C&T and place the food on the phone book to build up the association etc. As soon as paws are required to be placed on the phone book - then I will start throwing... so that they can 'reset' themselves.. if that makes sense. Then there are things like the 'quoit set' where I will throw food immediately - for the same reason that they can 'come back' and try again. They have never had a problem pairing the reward with the quoit set. Then there are things such as sits and drops and positions while heeling where I will reward in position. Things such as heeling - I may initially reward in position and later throw the food for the opportunity to come back and 'find' that position. Before throwing food in heeling, should they ever lose position, they weren't able to 'find' that spot again as well as they can now.... plus - their actual position itself is much more precise IMO. So I guess (after reading back what i've just written)... for a position that I want to remain stationary, it is likely that I will reward in position until a cue is built. For many other things, where movement is required, I will throw food either to get them to 'find' the spot or have another chance immediately at 'finding' the reward again or to build up drive (eg: weaving in agility.... but this of course is already on cue)..... Does this make more sense? I like these topics - they get me thinking

You can - but I prefer to do one or the other - either reward in position or throw the food. Some exercises I won't even reward in position past the initial shaping phases (ie: look the food is on the phonebook... once they know what to do with THAT , the food will get thrown). Again - yes, I could see this happening if you were to throw food for ever behaviour and every time they do it. For my heelwork 90% of the time, the food is thrown. But if they hear the click they don't pop out of position and quickly try to run for the food or anything (well... unless it has already been thrown )... IMO it's a case (for me) of using both techniques together. .Perhaps - but i've never thrown food to the same area of the room really. Always changes. I find food throwing great for doing distance work though as the reward isn't connected to you.... much like throwing a toy for that. I also find 'food throwing' increases their excitement a little (in my dogs) much like if a toy were involved.

Same here PF - and to a degree I agree with Pax (?) who said that it can cause a mild amount of anxiety. If the dog is offering behaviours at ANY time, it clearly doesn't have an understanding of what you want etc,etc. Do you see a lot of it?

I partially disagree on this point. I don't believe you *always* have to reward in position although yes, sometimes it does help. But for some exercises, such as using a phone book for rear end awareness or 'finding' heel - throwing the food had been a great help. It sets the dog up for an opportunity for another reward. HAving said that - if the dog is offering other positions post click and you have consistently rewarded that, then yes, the dogs will think that part of the behaviour. Excellent point - I agree completely

I dunno, stop putting it on yourself? You're saying the dogs don't catch the disc in the air, they wait for it to hit the ground and then retrieve it to you? Ohh - so thats why they aren't cathing it - I need to stop wearing the disc as a hat! They won't catch it in the air - it has to be dead first - or they will try a couple of very un co-ordinated jumps for it. they have no probs catching the ball either, but that is usually on the ground too. They loose interest with the disc easy - so am keeping sessions short, but will sometimes do what the OP said (run after it but not bring it back). I have tried rolling it on the ground, but I can't roll it

Partly because I think it makes me more animated in training if that makes sense. I used the 'yes' for about 12mths prior to using a clicker and although I was very enthusiastic about the 'yes' I never had a dog jump out of it's skin as if to say "oooh look at me - she just said YES, how clever am I?!", but I do with the clicker. If they hear the click - they whip around as if to say 'what did I get that for' and try and do it again.... I think it is part of the training paired with the clicker rather than the tool itself. For our training - the clicker comes only when there is a promise of food, but with the "yes" food may be there or it may not be. So having said that - if I were to train solely with a "yes" and provide food every time I said "yes" then I believe you would get the same result. The other reason is I think the 'free shaping' or the 'shaping' training I have done with the clicker - and again, I never did it without. Before it was all luring. The clicker provides one clear sound, which I think helps, plus the precise timing helps the dog gain faster results. Since I pretty much changed from 'luring' to more 'shaping' (be it free shaping or just approximation) at the same time, I can't say it is one over the other, and if you were to do the same with the yes, I bet you would get the same result. I don't think you gain anything from the clicker, unless you are simply someone like me, who feels in themselves that they are getting better timing from it and thus, training improves if that makes any sense.... Interesting concept. I too would be unlikely to train a clicker with a toy, only because you get fewer repetitions. You can't do as many because you have a good play in between exercises. For something new and complex, I fear that the dog may loose the connections between behaviours because of the break to play. For us, when we train, the dogs get a big play at the end of the session.

Thanks ML. Will have a read. I've been trying to get my guys to get into frisbee for fun (no clubs around here). They will chase it, but won't pick it up on the fool..... any ideas? *toddles off to read pdf file*