leopuppy04

What does your dog like Luke?

*notes to self* don't send Ptolomy any vids of me doing any training! I am the master of the 'snatch and grab' even though my dogs don't tend to drop the dumbells! Hey Ptolomy - how do you stop the dog holding the metal article like a cigar?! I'm really worried he'll ram it down his throat!!! Shoey - yup - Leo retrieves a drink from the fridge albeit an empty one - someone got lazy and didn't train the rest

That won't work - coz if this wasn't going as well as it is - I'd just say - do the distance challenge :rofl:

BTW - have you cut your hair, or is that just me imagining things?!

So when's your first trial shoey?! I just love her enthusiasm! You guys look great :D

Absolutely no disagreement from me here. There has been a huge mis-use of a halter as a training tool. It really arks my back up seeing dogs tied up with their halter still attached Used with a trainer, I see the halter as a valuable tool. seita - you can condition your dog to the feel of a halter - ie: the feel of a halter resting on it's nose (no pressure)... I've never had much difficulty doing this. Constant pressure on a dogs throat by pulling on a collar is not something I like to see - period.

I can't watch it here but will watch it tonight Shoey Are you going to FOOs?! That just reminded me - I have video's on order that I still need to tape

I don't think you can use a headcollar without any form of NR, so if I said no I didn't that would be a lie. If a dog pulled toward another dog or smell - I would use the head collar to about turn the dog away from that. We would approach again in the correct manner or get the dog to sit/ down as the dog passes. The reason I would use a head collar as opposed to a flat collar is simply because to turn your dog away from another dog or stimulus (with the application of NR) is much easier than doing the same on a flat collar (still using NR though correct?!) This is a situation where I would not use the HC - if I wanted my dog in closer - the HC is not used as a tool to get the dog in closer - apply pressure and release when it comes into position. The pressure on the HC only is applied for example if the dog pulls me somewhere - to which I promptly respond by about turning with the dog to release that pressure (if you are going to pull me there, we are not going there... period). So for this reason, I don't find myself in conflict with the RT at all. I guess personally - I would also not use the RT as you described - ie: mild stimulation until the dog sits etc. The only example I can think of in terms of a RT would be - dog chasing stock - stimulus applied... and to me - that's more or a PP than a NR. Again - I would be lying if I said I have not had a dog that was quite adverse to a head collar. If I did have one of those, I would use another tool. I don't want to use something that the dog finds so adverse as I don't think it fair on the dog or the owner. I must say though, for me - these dogs are few and far between (and yes, I've fitted quite a few). most of the dogs readily take the food - and because it's their choice to wear it (ie: food when head collar is on, no food when it is off) I have had very few dogs refuse to wear it after a few repititions. In fact Kinta was quite adverse to the HC the first few times I did this with her - now she looooves it! As always - there isn't one tool or method that works for all dogs - to me it's about keeping your options open and using the tools available for you to use. ETA: I also don't disregard that there are a lot of misconceptions about HC's too which I absolutely hate - I totally agree with you Jess!

I have used a head collar - and my dogs didn't dislike it. I didn't just chuck it on them - I conditioned them to wearing it - ie: with the example of a gentle leader - I would put the noose on their nose and feed with it on... as soon as the noose comes off - the feeding stops - noose on = food. I have never had a problem with this method and any aversion to a head collar from any dog. Like any training tool it is not the be all and end all - and it is not suited to every dog. I think if it really were that aversive to every dog - not that many would be accepting of it - and lets face it, if the owners want to take the positive approach, seeing their dogs struggle with a head collar would not bode well for the tool. JMO. Every client I fit to a head collar - I explain the above to them as well as how to walk a dog appropriately on a head collar. I like them because used correctly they are a useful tool, and a good tool to use to gain that extra control before weaning the dogs off it back onto their normal collar, should the owners wish. As for a shock collar - it would be a last resort use for me, and I mean absolute last resort use. I think that the application of such an aversive is very different to the application of a halti. I do not like to see the halti used to give a correction (I shudder at the thought) but as a tool to help aid the handler with a little more control over the dog. Perhaps if you were to explain further about what you mean... I might be able to expand further also :rolleyes: Personally - for a dog that constantly pulls it's owners around - that dog can do quite a lot of damage to their windpipe - for me - a halter is a better option. ETA: Thinking more along the lines of the negative punishment - NEVER will I or do I see many trainers use the halter in order to get the dog to do something - eg: pull up on the halter to get the dog to sit. In my mind - this is the true use of negative punishment here - and I simply don't use it like that. I use the halter to gain more control particularly for dogs who are perhaps a little reactive to their environment or to aid with pulling. If they were barking at another dog - I do not apply pressure on the halter until the barking stops.. I don't use the halter in that way. If the dog were reacting to another dog - to me that's a sign that that dog is over threshold, and I will move it to a situation where it can better cope (ie: increase distance).

OOPS! Don't you love the frustration barkers I live with 2!

hmm I'm curious - PF - what would you do in that situation and also what do the 'purely positive' trainers recommend?! Never really asked others that one before Leo I'm not a purely positive trainer. Luke W is right .. .they would try for an incompatible behaviour like a recall. No one in their right mind is going to put stock chasing on cue in the hope that it can be prevented at other times. Luke did you see what I read about cueing barking.. same deal as cueing sitting don't you think? My view is when a dog has a history of highly rewarding stock chasing aversives are called for. The other option much loved by the purely positives is to manage the behaviour to ensure that the opportunity to chase stock never occurs - that's not addressing the issue directly and frankly not always possible. Some pragmatic positive (not purely positive) trainers consider this one of the few justifiable reasons to use an electronic collar aversively. The reason is simple - the dog's life and the safety of stock are at risk. The behaviour is so rewarding to the dog that strong aversives are needed to deter it. That sure beats a bullet. If you've tried to make yourself more interesting and offer a reward than prey, you can see why its so hard to deter chasing. I don't see how teaching an incompatible behaviour (such as a recall or a down) is not being positive.... (not that I care... I will do what works...)... basically I am trying to say is how can some trainers find this not suitable?! I don't disagree with anything you have said here PF. My only argument 'for' putting barking on cue should someone want to recommend it is more on the opposite side - eg: teaching the dog a quiet command - so if a dog barks when people come to the door, giving the dog a 'quiet' or 'enough' command which you can heavily reward, in my mind would work.

hmm I'm curious - PF - what would you do in that situation and also what do the 'purely positive' trainers recommend?! Never really asked others that one before

Definitely try to train her How about setting up a dummy system to get her used to the doorbell (ie: someone out there ringing the doorbell) Have the doorbell pre-empt going to lie on a mat/ run into a crate rather than charging to the door instead.

I primarily use something like this to build up motivation and drive to get into the box... I also throw a toy behind the dog to get that real drive out and also have the reward off from me Food was good in the initial phases, but I much rather use toys later down the track If you are into agility - SG's one jump game has some great ideas for the 'pause table' which I then incorporated to the box

I would either - give in a neutral tone an 'ah ah' or something like that - So I wouldn't growl it - but I'd give the dog a gentle command to tell it to leave (and yes, the leave will need to be trained) As you then say - I would bring the dog to me (or call it back) - reward the dog for coming and for maintaining a position (sit or down) and keep the rewards flowing... I will then release with a bit of a game/ pat once you are ready to release the pup. So it learns listening to your 'leave' or 'ah ah' is actually REALLY worthwhile Agree with PF (now that I've read the thread) esp with the SG quote At the same time - a 'correction' does not mean you have to correct the dog into the middle of next year for it to be effective

:rofl: so that's how you treat your friends now eh?! We've had a few days now Ptolomy and usually (to the few I've been to) we either split into smaller groups, or have one person say what they want to work on, we do that and then pick them to pieces (but nicely!). It's usually a really good group who comes along and we all go home with lots of ides on how to improve etc. So in that instance, the dog doesnt' have to be any particular level to come along . Naturally there is a lot of gasbagging too :p What times the flight?! Me - mean?!?! NEVER! Must be the baby brain eh SW :p (hey I need to milk it - I only have a few weeks left of this!) Haha - I have a few ideas for the D train - will PM you... it is so cute though ETA - 25th Probably suits me better as I have a trial on the 12th ;)

Does anyone know how we go about "booking" a small area of KCC or do we just show up and find ourselves a spot. Thanks LukeW - I don't even know how much room that agility trial would take up but I'm assuming it's a fair amount! Would that wipe that Saturday out then??? You can usually use the back area (behind the Westernport rooms) or the off lead area - no need to book - there will always be space, but we can't use the front area - that's all don't do it that weekend - as I won't be able to come

Gayle - certainly don't get disheartened through this thread - we want to see you out and about and Benson certainly has the potential to go above and beyond CCD Keep at it and remember to have fun at Knox A

Hmm... you think we should ask Ptolomy or just show up on her doorstep?!

lol awww C'mon SW - it would be quite a spectacle... you have to admit that I guess the other angle with the heeling thing is that - your dog can heel fabulous in training, but heeling to that level takes a lot of training to get it reciprocated in the ring. The dog has to really understand it's job, and be confident and able to deal with the distractiing environment of a trial . Keep in mind - it could be something as minor as having a judge stand in the ring with you - or... if you do group classes, being on their own and not the distraction of the other dogs heeling around them (yes, sometimes more 'noise' can be less distracting than no 'noise'.... think of hearing a pin drop in an empty cell, compared to in a place with 20 screaming kids) LOL - thanks for the vote of confidence SW

Hey Ness - I like that idea Oi - that hurt TSD! Get outta my way! *kicks TSD up the butt and nicks off with Zig* OK - dates good for me: 11th Oct, 25th Oct (we have a twilight show... but pretty girl has to stay CLEAN!) 8-9th Nov, 23-30th Nov

I want to play - can I suggest the K9 grounds in Perth????? any day this week Ptolomy - I think it would be cheaper for you to come down here and train all of us Either that or can you pay for a ticket for me to Perth?!?!?! I won't tell the others ;)

Remember also - if you want to continue past CD - he needs to be able to hold an out of sight stay - so complete focus on you may make his stays fall apart in Open and above. Just make sure you go in and reward often for maintaining position and make sure you reward BIG time. I would also practice the sit and down stays in a separate session (if you need to practice downs... most of us don't do that very often!) OK - it could be a part age thing. but how about break it up a bit for him - this week - practice turns on the spot, and practice some circle heelwork (like we did at Sale) rewarding the correct position and trying to encourage him to find that position, either on the spot or while you are moving . Practice the focus as a separate exercise - look at all the biccies you get just for watching me ! He's toy mad right? So how about throwing a toy between your legs for him to get - or the two food game - throw food one way and then the other. for about 1 in 10 throws, turn into him and get him to present - you will get a rocket recall and (usually) a good present too... if he has been taught a nice, neat present. Remember - this week - make it all fun... I know the trial is looming, but keep it all up beat and fun - make sure he knows that obedience is a game.... just because the trial is coming up doesn't mean he has to do a full session every night for the next week or so - he can do small stints of each exercise and help tune up those finite details

Hmm.. yes I do understand your predicament Gayle -honest I do . Not only are you downhearted but you don't know where to turn... So - lets see if we can help here... what are you most concerned about with Benson's work - is there anything in particular that you think "This is the most likely thing that will let us down?!"

as per usual - you guys sort out a day and I'll see if I can make it Weekends/ weeknights are better for me KCC is fine.... Pity i've just booked myself up with shows and trials