leopuppy04

I'm third to agree with that

Most merle to merle breeding I have heard about in the past, have take place to make more money in the future. Good practice is to always breed a Mm Merle toa solid dog, and you will get about half Mm merles and half solid pups. When you breed Mm merle to Mm merle a certain number of the pups in the litter will be MM (only have M gene to pass on). If they can locate the MM dogs in the litter, these MM dogs will only produce merles when bred to solid dogs ( in other words a MM to solid dog litter, all the pups will be Mm merles). Since these type of breeders are breeding to make money and the merles are sold for more money (often their solid dogs have no value at all), they will make more money on the all merle litters from a MM parent, about double more money than a normal Mm merle to a solid dog litter. It's all about $$$$. The border collies in ANKC have a rule that you cannot registered merle to merle litters, but of course this will only help to prevent this practice if the dogs are registered as the colours they really are. that's a highly unethical way of breeding and I know it happened/ happens in the US, but certainly don't think that any Australian Aussie breeder that I know who have done a merle x merle do so for this reason! why keep a white, deaf and blind dog to breed just to breed merles. don't make it sound like it's the norm, as many breeders do so just as they would a tri x tri, because they feel that this mating is what compliments their lines the best. I'm neither supporting nor dissing it... just stating what I have seen/ heard.

Really?? That is bizaar... Do you know the breeders reasoning for taking that sort of risk? Reason being that both parents compliment each other nicely and the breeder is willing to take the risk of some double merle puppies. Double merle pups that they are willing to cull at birth. Up to the discretion of the breeder IMO, although I do think it strange that you can't do a merle to merle in BC's but you can in other breeds

I'll have a look at the east gipp shows, but I can't do murray valley

whereabouts?!!?! I haven't found any that I can enter yet

which ones?! the ones I have hidden in the closet, the one dressed in the Aussie suit, or the one everyone thinks is a BC coz she has a tail and everyone says "Oh I've never seen a border collie with brown bits before!" I usually tell them that they still haven't as she's an Aussie and not a BC!

Jules knows that deep down she really wants an Aussie .

I'd have to agree with you here dancinbc's! I think you understand both breeds really well. I definitely think that some Aussies are really thick (I own one :D ). Can't say anything for BC's coz I've never had one and only 'lived' temporarily with others. I'd have to say that yes, each can be as smart as the other, but there is probably more 'consistency' within the BC breed in terms of intelligence... or shall we say how quickly they pick things up I agree Benshiva. Even though we talk of different breeds, I strive with my breeding to maintain the 'good looks' of the Aussie while also maintaing their ability to do what they were naturally bred to do. I want a breed to do it all, because after all the Aussie is known as the "jack of all trades'

Great news guys. Just got my numbers back for next weekends show with a little note inserted (in response to my letter about neuter shows) saying "I agree and will try and get the class offered next year" Maybe since we have a few from each state we should perhaps try and give a few 'shows' to each person to contact?

All the Aussies I know seem to be less likely than the Borders to be on their toes ready for action. I have seen plenty of Borders bounce around, bark and even nip their owners clothes when working in agility, especially those from agility lines, but have never seen an Aussie do it. Maybe some do it and I just haven't seen them because there are not nearly as many competing and the ones I do know that compete are from Aussie show lines. Some Borders are steady, deliberate and work with stealth as they should, but many are not when it comes to agility. Temperaments and energy levels vary a lot in individual dogs of both breeds, from lounge lizards to hyper but overall I see more easy going Aussies and friends that have owned both have commented that Aussies live life at a slower pace than the Borders. Have to say - it's very true the Aussies are an upright worker and you see this all the time at the start line. How many BC's do you see crouched down ready to go, vs the Aussies who tend to sit very upright and square. Yet both can bolt out of the box quick as the other :p

Maybe I didn't read posts properly but I don't think anyone ever said that bcs were not social or affectionate to their family???? I think any working breed is bredto have a high work ethic and I don't see many Aussies running off to play with others on task (well I've never had that issue with mine ) but if you were referring to my comments I wasn't saying as a negative bit more highlighting different play styles. Nothing right or wrong about either

This is correct, and you can’t argue with this. Aussies that are longer and leaner obviously do better. BUT there are still Aussies that compete at top level agility that do very well… the difference you have to look at here are sheer numbers – eg: how many BC’s are bred per year per Aussies and also the fact that we have basically only imported ‘show’ Aussies – not working Aussies, who would give the BC’s a good run for their money (have a look in the states results and the Aussies are doing very well over there.... yes even over some 'working BC's). Yes, people are breeding BC’s for the agility ring too. I think that ‘show bred’ BC’s are ‘just as good as’ and ‘just as fast as’ the ‘show bred’ Aussies. So it’s a bit of a trade off – you breed for speed, you loose what others are looking for in the 'show ring'. In both breeds, I’d like to keep both there, and some people have been able to achieve that. Maybe so – but I disagree (Although we could use the argument that we each think our breed is smarter ). I have a couple of really quick thinkers at home (both Aussies, mother and daughter) and I doubt any BC could pick things up faster than they do. However, you add Leo to the mix, and he can be thick as mince sometimes and therefore, this statement there would stand true . I think that Aussies however don’t ‘second guess’ their owners and therefore are less likely to come up with their own course Definitely! It all comes down to what they were bred to do. Aussies work close to the sheep/ cattle’s heel so are supposed to be calm and steady while working them. BC’s work at a distance and are bred for speed and to run masses of distances to keep the sheep/ cattle together. That’s where the difference in play style, their general living arrangements and how they work comes into play (Aussies can be massive Velcro dogs, BC’s like their space). I think that BC’s can learn to love Aussie games (and vice versa) though and have mixed them well together Aussies should have Hips and Elbows done, DNA testing for CEA, HC and MDR1. Eye tests should be done at 6-8wks of age. .Disagree. I think in Aussies the Males are DEFINITELY social butterflys as all the females I know are more likely to be only interested in their owners/ more reserved or suspicious of strangers, whereas they boys couldn’t give two hoots. I find this even if they are very social individuals when people come to the house, the girls hang back probably thinking 'I don't know you, but I will get to know you ' Whereas the boys don't give it a 2nd thought! Said by the lover of a BC. Insert BC where she put Aussie and Aussie where she puts BC and that would be my statement ;-) ROFL At the end of the day, it all comes down to preference. Before I found the Aussies I had my heart set on a BC. I love their work ethic and maybe one day I'll own one. There can be a lot of cross over in the breeds - I've looked after a friends couple of BCs and one borders on insanity (haha - even BC lovers appreciate her 'needs' ) and the other is your typical BC, who is VERY close in personality to my Aussie. Another friend has probably one of the fastest BC's in the state and did very well at Nationals with her, but at home you could probably mistake her temperament for an Aussie (quiet as a mouse and a real cuddler). At the end of the day for me though the Aussies won out. I see differences such as the Aussies are more 'social' in the sense that they LOVE physical contact and will either sleep ontop of you or ontop of each other - wheras the BC's I know are not like that. They like their personal space (think again to herding style ). I love the Aussie's attitude. We often joke amongst friends that the Aussies work hard, play hard, and always have a good joke up their sleeve. But the BC's take their work very seriously The Aussies are my heart breed. I just love everything about them . But I'll be the first to admit that with the Aussies we have in Australia, it's MUCH harder work to get them to the top agility level (say winning everything etc) and to get them to run faster than the BC's. But... they can be steady consistent and competitive workers in the agility ring . In fact the 2nd or 3rd dog to gain their Ag CH in Victoria was none other than a lovely Aussie . But you see some of those crazy fast BC's - and I just don't think an Aussie could beat that :D. I will say that they tend to be more consistent workers though. As for in the obedience ring.... you can't tell me the BC's are better than the Aussies - 'aint that right Bedazzled . I might have a BC one day. But the Aussies will always be the breed for me :D

Hehe - sorry Megan, might have mistaken you for someone else K9 is another Agility specific club that trains in Cranbourne at KCC park . Their waiting list is currently closed, although I switched there from AD a few years ago, and it suits us better

Some love it. Can be a bit like K9 though as class numbers could be 'high' and you only get 1-2 runs in the higher classes. My guys HATED running on the sawdust It's great coz if it's raining you can still train They can't split groups up like K9 can with a 'smaller' section for doing GD boxwork or something like that. There are some fabulous trainers there, but they are sort of across the board and instruct at multiple clubs anyway Give it a go - it didn't suit us, but you don't know until you try

Thanks TSD Yup - no unscented - ALL are scented, and ALL are correct for him to bring back Gives him the most chance of success I have visions of my little red kids - running around the ring picking up the first seekback then finding the second one and picking that up and then finding the third and picking that up and getting to the 4th and not being able to fit any more in their mouths :D and then just standing there looking at me with that "help me mum" expression Lucky for me - Leo just finds the first one, thinks "BINGO" and brings it straight back to me . The gloves on the other hand are a different matter..... yet another reason why we do speak Personally I think it's the delinquent trainer :p Gotta love Tux' enthusiasm! As for the dark, yes, I did plenty in the dark. Same problem. Short sequences he was fine, but he just seemed to 'distrust' his nose and not know how to continue looking for it I agree too. I think that this method could pose major issues for UDX, but personally, with Leo being my first dog, I'm happy enough that we have gotten to UD and realistically I would like to work towards his OC and perhaps forget about UDX . I'll have to go back to the drawing board and see how we would work on the seekback in UDX should we ever decide to do it... but seeing that OC may not ever happen, I'm not holding my breath As for my initial trainning. I think it was plenty too fast. I was SO excited about teaching UD that I think I jumped the gun, also not really knowing how to teach it . End result is a very confused dog that required a lot of training to overcome the stupidity of his handler

Thanks TSD ;) Yup - no unscented - ALL are scented, and ALL are correct for him to bring back Gives him the most chance of success

I have just retired one of my kids from obedience because she would shut down in the ring. Meeting 2 of her sibblings and seeing that they were a replica of her made me realise that nothing I did was ever going to change this aspect of her. Now she just comes training and conitnues to learn new things and loves every minute of it. Such a shame Ptolomy as i'm sure she (not sure which one!) had oodles of potential. But sometimes it's better for the dog just to enjoy training

I agree - well said Ness. I think if any dog was a complete basket case *in the ring* then yes, is it really fair to trial them... after all we aren't competing for cattle stations here.... but there are a lot of dogs out there who just love trialling regardless of any baggage they may carry and due to expert handling and a great bond with their owners, they excel!

all the seekbacks are scented :D Oops - that was my bad then - I thought there were 2 articles in UDX one scented by the steward and one unscented

It's taken us around 2yrs to enter the UD ring Bedazzled . Thanks to the Seekback only. the rest of his work is quite solid, so I'm getting quite antsy to enter the ring again I have one ready for open and one (almost) ready for UD..... guess I better start entering some trials Mind you - he's no match for Brookie

After Many MANY months of limited success with only using one seekback, we found that we weren't getting any consistency with his work. We had tried EVERYTHING - as in shorter searches, food on the seekback... you name it, we tried it (there were about 5 of us trying to put our heads together). Now it wasn't that he *couldnt* do the exercise but that he would 'distrust' his nose and always come back to me for a 2nd cue (which he would always find if offered). If I said 'nup too bad, back in the car' if he came back to me, he fell to pieces. If I stood there and said nothing, he would just sit next to me not sure what to do. A fellow trainer came up with this idea and it seemed to fit exactly what we were trying to achieve with Leo and I have to say the build up in his confidence has been remarkable :rolleyes: Because we are ate the 'final' stages of this proofing now so we want him to be completely confident no matter what pattern he is given. So now, for your 'ordinary' track (up the far end of the ring) we now have anywhere from 1- 3 seekbacks in the ring, which he finds with gutso. So now witht he keyhole track, we put out the max number of seekbacks again to build up his confidence, before cutting it back once more. So it certainly wasn't the first one we threw at him I know it's not the ideal way to teach it, but guess what it works for him Given that it is highly unlikely we will ever venture into the UDX ring, I can't see how it would ever have any detrimental affects, and even if I did venture into the UDX ring, I don't percieve it having any more difficulty than a normal UD dog learning about the 'decoy' as the 'decoy' will always be unscented

As someone who has worked long and hard through a variety of stay - breakers, a few ideas: 1 - rather than looking at building duration, look at building value for the 'stay'.... I would rather reward 50 x for a 30sec stay and have the dog say "I NEVER want to leave this position again" then trying to build up to a 3min stay immediately (not saying that you are). 2 - Build the value back up with you present - at least for the first few times. We need her to regain confidence. So I would actually stay present for 90% of the stay and then disappear only to come back again 3 - have a spotter who can click the dog when she is calm - you hear the click and return to her 4 - practice your sit and down stays in a separate session to avoid confusion 5 - The BEST thing I have done is to have the 'judge' come and feed her when she is nice and relaxed. It means if Zumba feels threatened in a stay at a trial, she'll default to the judge rather than to yourself. 6 - NEVER correct her when she breaks a stay - this will give her less confidence. If she has broken, just walk back 'oops too bad' and then either put her in a crate or end the training session. Loose all opportunity for a reward 7 - probably most importantly - how well does the dog know the stay? Can she stay when it's boring? with lots of distractions? with you sitting in different positions? there is a wonderful section on stays on the Chris Bach DVD which basically looks at 'reminding' the dog where the weight has to be for a solid stay. so gentle pressure on the paws, bum or on the dogs side, pulling it forward. Do they resist you and pull back as though to say "mum told me to stay, so stay I will". I actually would C&T the pull back initially. Some thoughts for you I'd even use something really tasty like a chicken wing or chicken necks as a reward

OK - so here's my first update... on the 'royally stuffed up dog' So how we've been teaching Leo is going back to the start peg, but also we have been putting multiple seekbacks out, because he has totally lost his confidence.... long story! I also did a seekback with Leo at club yesterday. Unfortunately the trainer helping me made it a bit too tough (she misunderstood where I wanted the articles) as we did a keyhold track (the one where you end up back near the start peg, and the articles are at the back of the ring near the box). I wanted her to leave the articles evenly spaced around the back of the ring, but she had them all about 1m away from each other in the same corner. Anyway… Leo was really good! He raced off when I sent him, followed the the track completely but came on the (wrong) side of the jump coming back down (still following the track). Because he bypassed the articles, poor fella was making it hard for himself. BUT when he couldn’t find it, rather than coming back to me, he went back to the start peg, and started tracking forward! He then he got up to the top, and after wondering back around for a little while longer, finally found the article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m SOOOOOO happy! Although I wish it wasn’t so hard for him as I don’t want to demotivate him, I’m going to do lots more of these ‘tracks’ but make it easier for him to find the article to make sure he maintains his confidence! But he would *never* have looked that long and hard before . Maybe we will see the inside of a UD ring yet....

I think we need photos/ video Sieta :eek: Well I think I'm going to try the start peg - I'll let you know how it goes! To make sure we have success, I'm going to still do some hide and seek around the house before taking it 'on the road' so stay tuned as I'll likely be asking a tonne of questions Quick brag for Leo though. We've been working on his seekback now with a 'new' way for about 2-3 weeks now and so far have a 100% success rate and he's really tracking well for it. All he needed was a confidence boost as he understood the principle part of the exercise, but didn't believe it was 'out' there so woudl return to me for a second cue. So we've been having out 3-4 articles for him (all seekbacks) and he's been doing great. Lucky for him I'm not doing UDX with him so it won't bite us in the bum The change in his attitude is amazing. He's always loved his seekback, but now he can barely keep his pants on. Lets hope he continues to improve

You forgot me BB