leopuppy04

LOL - thanx Haven - I wasn't sure if they were.... darn xmas time!!! Looks like I may have to be just a little creative for the first 4 wks and then off to PPS. I alreaday have tarp and things for pup to walk over, a puppy see-saw and tunnel etc... so at least I have some stuff and people are no probs, it's playing with other dogs *g*! I'm sure i'll have plenty of people taking that offer up too - i'll msg ya if I need Nova and Loki

Thanks Cosmolo but ADT isn't really what I was looking for in their puppy class.... not looking as much for the obed as for the social etc... also want something a little cheaper as i'll only be going there for 4 or so weeks .

I know this question has been asked a lot, but I am looking for puppy pre-schools in Eastern Suburbs of Melbourne that run over xmas. In particular, im looking for something that does a LOT of socialising rather than training so that they have things for puppies to climb over, various surfaces and tunnels etc. I'm enrolled for CDODC's puppy pre-school but that doesn't start until early Jan and want something for in-between if I can find it.... any ideas? Oh and I want one that won't mind clickers and that sorta stuff...... Jules - are u going anywhere with your pup?

I had never heard of that!!!! how long ago was that?!?!?!? I have a feeling that trying to reverse the 'prong' laws would be like trying to reverse the 'docking' laws. There are so many silly arguments for and against and people who feel so strongly about whichever side that it seems that you would be fighting the impossible IMO! Good luck anyway and I wish you the best

I have tried lots of different diets and am happiest with the one I am now on. I like to give my dog variety, but his staple diet is BARF. He usually gets bones etc in the morning and sometimes he gets raw chicken mince (I like this best coz it is the whole carcass minced through rather than just the meat) mixed with eggs, veggies and sometimes some pasta. He LOVES this. He also gets a variety of dry food from mid-range (supercoat) to premium (pro plan, nutrience, advance). I use the premium stuff sometimes for training, but also for stuffing treat balls, kongs etc. He occasionally gets tinned food as I use this to stuff the kongs at times also. So as I said - variety! My kitty gets raw mince, chicken necks and dry food (tinned food if I have forgotten to bring stuff out!). So there you have it!

Well done on your first CCD pass!!!! that is interesting.... IMO that shouldn't have been a pass - the dog broke, tough, but true..... that was the only reason I failed on Sat - he broke when I left, sat down again and held it for the full minute despite the fact that the 3 dogs next to him broke, sniffed each other and were half way toward their owners. I was proud of him for that and the fact that he didn't drop, but really dissapointed that he has found a new way to 'break' stays! At least I have a tonn of ideas on how to combat this now! LOL!

Thought you might like to know that the exact question I asked (No 1) whereby a dog broke and went over to sniff another happened in my trial on Sat. The dog got to re-sit the stay (but the silly thing dropped about half way through!). I thought that was really nice of the judge and she did mention that it would be awful mean if someone didn't let you re-sit it..... but as always - it is just the judges descretion!

Thanks everyone for the responses. Just thought I might share that we did some stays (group) on Wed and we held a 1.15min sit stay and 3min down stay with doors banging, dogs staring at us, wind blowing up a gale (geez I froze!) and things clanging everywhere. We got a well-deserved chicken carcass after the stays to re-inforce good things! LOL! I'm just going to keep nutting away at it and see how we go! Thanks again

Yay - that must have made you so proud!!! Jumping up and down, crying etc,etc!! LOL! Congrats anyways! Even if you do have a good dog it is still hard to put the nerves aside etc. Even gaining a pass when there are so many areas a dog can stuff up.... and they always find new ways! Dogdayz - I do agree with you - first trial jitters, even jitters before your first pass can really affect how you perform...... I guess we shouldn't really judge should we :D

Thanks to everyone for the replies. It is a terrible thing sometimes the stays! I have tried my darndest to proof as I can and usually he is fairly stable... we went through a stage of dropping but this was partly due to an injury I believe and i've been trying to work through this with him at times. Unfortunately this is our most unstable exercise but that doesn't mean that we aren't ready. I have been proofing in all situations and when I can try with a 'mock line-up' as this tends to cause the most hiccups. It really is the joys of trialling isn't it! I take it that it is the choice of the judge and whatever you get dealt with is their call. As for CCD & Novice - I can't comment on Novice but CCD is interesting. Half of the dogs are REALLY good - nice heeling, really steady on the work etc. Others are lagging, leaving the ring, heeling metres wide and frankly need a LOT more work. I don't know the story behind what causes their dogs to do this, but IMO the dogs need more time training and less time trialling. At least at training you can feed/reward when the dog is in the correct position. I am so glad I have had a bunch of people to help me get my dog to where he is today. He isn't perfect or anything but I am immensley proud of the work that he pulls of and his attitude in the ring. We just have to keep plodding away at the stays - LOL! I know how you all feel about missing your passes because of the stays - I was sitting on 94 (and our title!) when he broke his stays. Its all about learning curves I guess, but hopefully I don't stress him out too much at the next trial!!!! It frustrates me though when people tell me it is 'easy'.... I'd like to see them try!!! :D

Thanks Alpha. The problem is this - we are very good at holding our stays in VERY distracting environments. The problem is as with most trialling dogs - the silence and a sudden break in sound.... although barking dogs seems to be added to the list ..... I guess this is a problem many people face isn't it??? I have practiced stays everywhere possible - agility, flyball, obedience with dogs chasiing dumbells, dog parks with dogs running around, squeaky toys being thrown past and over head, ducks flying past, my reward toy being dragged on the ground, food being rattled & thrown etc,etc..... difficult!!! LOL

This is going to sound like a silly question but how exactly do you proof your dog against dogs breaking their stays? Obviously I don't want to set someone elses dog up to not succeed??? Also - I don't know any barking dogs

Thanks poodlefan - that was along the lines of what I was thinking - unfair but then if you let one go, where does the line stop . Ooh - I like the sound of that judge!!!! It is annoying - i'm going through CCD at the moment and having taken 2mths break, all of the 'good' dogs have passed out and we have another batch of people entering 'just to see' where there dog is at...... if they aren't ready they aren't ready.... I just can't wait to burn the lead!

I guess it just depends on how you see training DD. IMO training never stops. LP I see exactly what you are saying and FWIW to everyone I have seen LP train as she came through the NDTF course recently and think she's got a great understanding of the concepts and is very level headed about how and when it is appropriate to apply them. I also agree with what LP is saying about freeshaping, dogs that are primarily trained using positive reinforcement and shaping are far more likely to try new things in order to find the correct behaviour than dogs who's owners are quick to deliver a punisher. Aw shucks - thanx haven

Just a few questions regarding stays in an obedience competition: 1. I am sure this gets asked a lot - if a dog next to yours was to break a stay and move directly infront of yours and your dog breaks, how would the judges deal with this???? I am talking about literally the dog having a direct interaction or standing VERY close to your own? Would you be able to repeat it or would it be an immediate NQ for you? 2. I have recently had a trial (nb: do not blame dog or handler at all) whereby my dog was very un-nerved in his stays by a barking dog next to us ("please come and save me mum I don't want to be here" probably was being communicated by said dog). In all honesty I do believe this caused my dog to break his stay as his behaviour (scratching repeatedly, yawning and then breaking into stand) was very much out of character as we usually just drop if we don't want to hold our stays..... he also rarely breaks his drops which he did again. Granted, he may have picked up on my stress, but is there anything that could be done about a disturbance caused by another dog in the stays? Particularly if said dog you were likely to encounter again at other trials? Would love to hear everyones feedback

I second that..... depends on your dog as to how you would rate each one. I have found in order: supercoat purina one pedigree perf bonnie haven't used optimum but heard mixed responses

You want the dog to make a mistake. What is the reason for you to do so? In my opinion we set the dogs to make mistakes so that we can correct them appropriatelly for the dog, hence throught that they avoid making the same mistakes over and over again. But you set the dog up for a mistake, than what? What do you do? Can you give me an example pls, mabe that will make it easier for me. Also what I want to say that I personally use mainly positive methods in my dog training, jsut in case anyone thought I dont. Hmmm... lets see how I go - I sometimes find this one difficult to explain . I don't set my dog up for mistakes but rather want him to try and think things through which is why I find clicker training so useful. For example - I may be teaching my dog a d/b retrieve using a clicker. I'd start with the d/b between my legs and C&T any interaction with it etc, etc. Now he may get so eager as we go along in training that he snatches the d/b from between my legs and holds it himself..... I would jackpot that. I guess it is not a mistake per se, but he is technically not doing something that he was previously rewarded for. Now it may be just me but I find that with correction training I can't get the same response. Again - another example would be a 'finish' - the dog knows it and does it well. but one day the dog does a really nice, close finish (the other one was fine too but this one was much neater and tighter) which I would reward again. I honestly find that these are left out a lot with correction training. But that may just be me. Does that make it any clearer by what I mean that I want the dog to make what it may percieve as a 'mistake'..... perhaps it is the wrong word to use? Amhailte - yes, it probably is misuse of the tool, but it doesn't make me want to use them any more than I do now . NB: I don't have a negative, negative view toward them, I see their use and they are a very effective tool, I just choose not to use one in my training :cool:. In your training session - how long is it? How about for 1 hr at a dog club lesson? I think that particularly in the beginnings of class (ie: new student) would it still be misuse of the tool to correct a dog so often in such a high distracting environment?

If you're correcting your dog 10 or 20 times in a training session, I think you're probably doing something wrong. If I found myself needing to correct that often, I'd want to take a break and consider why it was happening. For example, perhaps: a) my dog was confused, and I should make the exercise easier for him instead of correcting him. or b) the corrections I am using are just way too soft to make an impact on the dog. Seen it happen a gazzilion times before! People are constantly popping although using the chain correctly it just goes on & on & on lol.

Depends how hard you yank it, I guess. I have put my prong on my arm many times and popped myself, to show people it doesn't actually hurt unless you give it one heck of a good yank. A light to medium pop is merely uncomfortable. Honest. You can certainly abuse a pinch collar by popping far too hard for the dog's temperament and hurting or scaring the dog. But then again, you can abuse any other correctional tool - even things as 'humane' as a flat buckle collar (e.g hanging a dog) or your voice (yelling scares the cr*p out of some dogs). Abuse is in the trainer, not the tool. Well said! . Sure by correcting once or twice with any prong/chain would only be uncomfortable, but how about if you needed 10, 20? Starts to get a little dull ache after a while (nb: not talking about huge corrections here, just light to medium).... perhaps that is coz i'm weak, but hey, there will be dogs that are weak like me too :cool:! I've also seen exactly what you describe - dogs scared of owners raising their voice and also flat collars being misused. Personally, the discomfort from a constantly taut collar against my neck (yep, tried this too! I think I should be admitted to a nuthouse) would in some instances be more uncomfortable than one quick pop.

Crossed my mind yes, but I don't have all that much strength to begin with and they were tiny corrections. I'm talking itty bitty pops. Anyway - why would it matter if I 'corrected' my dog with a chain or not?? Like I said I want my dog not to be afraid of making mistakes which is why I prefer using positive methods. Half of the time the 'mistakes' are something that I want. I want my dog to be doing what he does because he *wants* to and not because he is afraid of the aversive that may follow should he not comply. I like the way to train and the way I feel when I do it. When I use correction training I always come out grumpy because i'm looking for the mistakes and not praising enough. When I train positive I look for the right behaviours and have a great time because 'when you look for the good you will find it'. Sure, it may not affect everyone that way but that is how it affects me. Like I said, it is just my opinion and unless someone asks which way should I train my dog, I don't tell anyone how they should train their dogs nor do I expect everyone to train their dogs the way I do simply because I prefer it. Each to its own. Doesn't mean that you love your dogs any less or any more by the way you train . You can see just as many mistakes with people using 'positive' methods as you do with people using 'corrective' methods. It is not the theory that is wrong but the handler not having enough information about it..... I like the way I train ETA: coz it made no sense

I guess 'soft' is hard to explain. He is soft 'emotionally' I guess because should I ever correct him in training (yell, check, whatever) when he is in 'training mode' he will completely shut down. He is such a great worker, why would I want to do that. He is trying his best to do what I ask him and usually it is because he can't understand what I want him to do. As for physical pain, I dunno... average??? If he has an injury he usually rests himself... but he certianly hid a doozy from me not so long ago... My dog does NOT bounce back from corrections like most dogs do. He shuts down and refuses to work again. Some may say work through this, I say, make training fun and I have found a way to do that. If I were to work through it and persist with corrections, i'd have a dog that would hate to work. He is a precise worker and works brilliantly for what he wants.... is that good training or just him as a dog... I think it is just him. He remembers all corrections and if we were to do the same thing the next day he will be very tentative about doing as I ask - not something I want to see. I don't mind if my dog makes a mistake - sometimes that mistake is exactly what I was looking for. Usually my adversive for him is simply walking away and ending the training session. This is a dog that WANTS to work. Perhaps it wont work for my next dog. Occassionally I would use an 'UH' but it all depends on what it is he has done. If he lacks attention in training; I walk off on him (ie: you don't pay attention to me I wont to you), if you made a BIG mistake, he will get an 'UH'. If he makes a HUGE mistake I chuck a hissy.... (very amusing to watch!). I have corrected him a few times, but I know when I can and can't. He was completely tuned out and in 'drive' to chase ducks. Quick correction brought him back and this is the only time I can do it - when he is completely focused on something else. I hope this makes sense! Half the time I think I talk gibberish!

It is completely appropriate for a company to supply both prong collars and clickers, a good trainer will always work to create a contrast in training. Plus as Amhailte said, the so called 'positive only' people don't have a monopoly on using RMs in training Count me in on the capaign to bring back power chains. LOL - I don't think that if you use a prong that you cant use a clicker - it is only a bridge for all that it is talked up to be (I am a clicker nut btw), but I found it suprising that a company would supply both considering that companies that sell prongs & check chains are usually 'anti clicker' and those that sell clickers are usually 'anti chains'..... LOL - Haven - you have trained me well, i'm begining to hate the term 'positive only'.... anyone know a 'positive only' trainer?!?!?!?!

Nah, sounds perfectly normal to me. Most people who use prong collars also reward their dog for correct behaviour, and some of us certainly do use clickers or verbal bridges when we are teaching new behaviours. The purely positive school of thought doesn't have a monopoly on clickers or bridges. :cool: LOL wasn't saying that - was just suprised thats all I was reading some of the previous posts and just thought i'd like to put my 2c in. While IMO I don't really like prongs of any kind, it would be completely naive of me and in some ways uneducated to simply say that I don't like them because they are aversive. Whether you use food, clickers or whatever, there will always be an aversive of some form and the individual dog really does define what this aversive would be. I know that if I put a prong on my dog, i'd never be able to get him to work for me again - i'm not just saying that, he is just a very soft dog when working. Having said that I don't think that anyone that uses a prong is out to 'brutally mistreat' their dog or anything like that ;).... sure I may *never* (haha never say never!) want to use a prong, I understand that there are times and places for all training tools and like me others have preferences to certian types of training tools. However, don't tell me that a prong doesn't hurt your dog like a shock collar doesn't hurt. Of course it does, it just doesn't cause lasting pain - it causes a 'shock pain' much like a quick, sharp, growl would scare your dog... That is how I interperet this. I have not made my decision of where I stand simply by looking at the prong over the net, but using it on myself and looking at it in detail, researching (sometimes that is hard, things are so biased someitmes) etc, etc. If a prong is what you use so that you have control over your dog and thus that dog has a better quality of life because it can go on daily walks and regular outings with you, who am I to stand in your way Having said that - now - logically looking at it.... I don't see how the rubber prong would be anywhere near as effective as the chain version, particularly on long coated breeds. Unlike a check chain where I believe the nylon/leather/whatever versions are just as effective, I don't think this one will be. Just my 2c worth.

yeah I saw that which I thought quite amusing.... how can u sell a clicker AND a prong collar in the same company...... seems to go a little in opposite directions don't you think?!?! But then, maybe it isn't that bad because it is plastic *sigh*!

WOW - thanks for the suggestions! Do you know where I can get the 'large crunch Nutrience?' - everywhere I go only tend to stock 'medium crunch' - is it something i'd have to order in?? (mega pet warehouse ringwood is my usual haunt) GREAT idea for stuffing the treat ball - he LOOOVES it and it is the only one that lasts a while to empty! Will try the yoghurt idea (hehe - and also remember to take the cling wrap off!). Kitkat - I like supercoat as a general brand but am looking more at the premium range - i'm doing sorta a 1/2, 1/2 thing at the moment along with a raw diet etc. Thanks all for the feedback on Advance - I like it and so does the dog, yet I wasn't sure how good it actually was (lol - my dog eats anything!)