leopuppy04

LOL - ness. I hadn't thought about it in terms of 2 different circumstances :D. I'm with you on that one though - my previous post in regards to general 'obedience' and manners. As Ness said, Obedience/agility and all the rest are 'games' so I tend not to use 'corrections'... despite my frustrations (should that occur!). If it is not fun, why do it. I do however find it hard to explain this theory to my clients though....... that when the dog is 'training' ie: working with us, their mistakes are generally based on a misunderstanding, not disobedience..... yet jumping up on the bench is simply NOT ALLOWED.. haha - I think i've just made it all the more confusing for me

Cosmo - this isn't fair! You always start good threads just when i'm doing my 'final readover' before I start work again :D 1. I'd like to think I am relatively open minded. I do have a preference to training methods and will always try food/motivation first before any other method. As yet, I have not 'had' to use any other method, but it doesn't mean that I never will have to change my tactics a little ;). I have absolutely no problem with others using chains or halters provided (this is a biggie here!) *that they are used correctly and under proper instruction*. I find that if you make statements "I would never....." you will invariably find yourself ONE day doing just that because of the type of dog you have come across. Our club is quite open minded, but does tend to have a mix of instructors - those that look down on clicker trainers and those that look down on correction chains.... there is a reasonable mix. Yep - will always assess the dog to my best ability before using a particular type of equipment. 2. Yes. I find them stimulating if not a little frustrating. Sometimes i've gone to a 'positive training seminar' and walked out thinking "yes, yes, yes".... then come back, stewed over it and though "hang on, but what if....". Likewise i've walked out of a 'correction' seminar and thought "no, no, no" with the same result later. In all honesty, I like to have an equal balance between the two. Heaven help the trainers that believe you can't say NO to your dog Every learning species needs to learn right from wrong 3. I haven't yet come across a dog where my training techniques haven't worked..... we may hit a few stumbling blocks and have to use a different type of method (eg: dog not understanding foldback drop), but the crusp of the training technique has remained the same. BUT, I don't believe i've really had a chance yet to fully evaluate this. Neither do I think that my technique is the 'one and only' as you will always have an exception to the rule. I am grateful for my training last year. I believe I would be a lot more 'close minded' had I chosen the other path I was considering. I admit that 1/2 the time I walked out of lectures thinking "this is all wrong" only to go home and think about it.... and honestly say to myself that yes, I do actually do that, but in a slightly different manner. Furthermore, I can actually say to clients who ask me 'why' I don't use x y or z - I can tell them honestly and openly why..... and from personal experience. I don't say - "oh no I don't use it coz it is cruel' yet have never actually used one

Drat - you've outed me! Cosmo -you were meant to keep quiet about how 'untrained' my dogs *really* are *tut tut* - I'll hunt you down eventually Cosmo <cackles>

I'll bring my lucky charm for you - remember you got Inter in Group last time I was there . so we are aiming for an Inter in show for Eddie and a MPIS for Kittles

LOL - are you avoiding me Cosmo ..... I can't make it on the 29th - can rarely do Sundays ETA - Shoey, does that mean that your going to win an Inter In SHOW?!?!?! LOL - we should be finished by around 2 though? It will be my last show in Minor Puppy - i've pretty much missed that whole class - my girlie is growing up too fast! She is looking far from show quality today - BLACK legs, chest and tummy from all the rain ... Leo isn't far behind

WANT to come, but can't come - no money

Ness - c'mon tell us your secrets - how did you teach heel? DVD's this weekend...... hopefully (how many times have I promised that now?!?!? - i've lost count)! WMR and Lablover - I hate, hat HATE the lead!!!! ARGH! I can never figure out where to hold it, what to do with it when heeling. I NEVER train with it so the result is a horrible heeling dog for CCD ..... soo glad I can move on now .... although now after saying that his heeling will probably be terrible for Novice, just to spite me . I did some heeling with Leo last night and with all of the 'lead' practice, he is heeling wider than normal.... lol - back a few paces to get him into the right position again . oooh - Ness.... my Kay laurence books arrived...... all except the Bl&&dy obedience one ..... I want it, I need it......

LOL Ness - that I can do - i've tried to put it on youtube but it wont do it for me . You can see all of my training 'junk' and see the difference from our 'crap' start to November 06 . Hinting at anything are we :p. Jesomil - lol - good to see that we are putting the motivation into you - I am the same - I wanna go home now and practice some heeling :D

LOL - ness - yeah I was thinking that of Leo's work too. I was watching the NSDTR vid that you posted and thought - well Leo isn't that far off the mark :p. Thanks for clearing that up WMR - maybe it just seems shorter coz i'm watching and admiring as opposed to competing

LOL WMR - so are you saying that both the US and UK heeling patterns are shorter with fewer turns and stops? Never knew that (well I knew the UK was shorter). Not exactly easy to get that style of heeling, but something to strive to for me. IMO - there is nothing that looks quite as nice as a dog that loves heeling, holds position well and is prancing :p ETA - ooh nice one Ness

The only downside is that they are all BC's - i'll see if I can find others ;) A BMD: All different breeds: It's AKC - but a nice goldie working (man I love watching these guys when they have their heeling down pat!!) - notice the heelwork is not so - glued to your leg The dogs get away with a lot more - this dog wouldn't even pass in UK I believe:

LOL - you should watch my friend Sarah - her dogs work to the UK standard in Aust (well, before she moved to NZ ). Murphy (aussie) would come in and literally bowl her over in the fronts because it was so close - it was a pretty picture though! LOL! I saw you watched the Vid - I wish I could heel like that!

It isn't really - you can get fairly close to it... I have seen a few dogs in Vic with very Uk style heeling and no penalising - they do penalise the real good stuff though as apparently it is 'crowding' ;) - it looks so much NICER though!

Yeah - i'm in agreement with that too. heel means heel..... when I'm heeling formally, i'll never use 'close' as I said - I used it to teach a new position - I has pretty much been faded out now... Yep he knew heel and knew where to find it. But I decided to 'modify' it as such. I wanted to bring his 'heel' into a slightly different position - even closer and a little more of a wrap around - more the the UK standards of heeling.... I decided that his 'original' position, while still in heel was a little wider than what I wanted. So I decided to start the basics with the word 'close' so that I wouldn't mess up the command of heel or get him confused at all. When he understood the new position, I faded out 'close' and re-introduced heel..... does that make sense? cosmo i'm like you - 'here' or their name means just come back, "come" actually means a formal - but that doesn't mean I don't use it on a walk - I just expect a sit at the end . But nope, never thought of actually teaching the position...

Yup - I initially only used 'close' because Leo already *knew* what heel meant and I didn't want to muck that up - i'll later 'fade out' "close". I don't use another word other than a firmer 'heel' if Leo is out wide. If he still doesn't listen, I stop walking and ignore him - you no pay attention to me, I no pay attention to you

Best thing i've done, albeit taking a while - i'm sure Leo would give Bob a run for his money. We did it purely by free shaping although you don't need too. It was fun to teach and our very first shaping exercise . Steps: *I got out a paving brick/ phone book and put it on the floor *I would C&T ANY interaction with the brick - looking at it, sniffing it, taking a step toward it. When I reward i'll try and throw the food as close to the paving brick as poss, to give a better chance of a 2nd reward. *Once he was looking at the brick, i'd wait him out and C&T any paw movements toward the brick. He eventually just 'offered' a paw on the brick. JACKPOT. * i'd keep doing this - this time throwing the food behind him so that he'd come and line straight back up with the brick. Slowly move to only clicking for 2 paws. * once reliable on getting 2 front paws on the brick- i'd throw the food slightly to the side (depends if your dog is a lefty or righty - but for obed throw food to the right (your right not the dogs!)). *if the dog understans that the click only comes for standing paws on, directly in line with you, they tend to come in, put paws on brick and move butt around. C&T & JACKPOT any rear end steps. *once he got the idea, i'd start standing up (I always shape sitting down) and every time he took a step, so did I . I'll go in the opposite direction as him so we would always stay in line. *once he understood that when I stepped, he moved his bum, I added in the word *step*. *gradually faded off the paving brick and now ask for a step and he'll swing right round into heel position (that was a fluke the first time he offered that!). LOL - wow that was long! I can show you if you like, if you are coming to the KCC day - Kinta is quite low in this (lazy trainer) and Leo has mastered it ;)

LOL - yes I'd definately prefer a surging dog to a lagging one also - it's too hard to pep them up without 'babying' them (talking to them to encourage them forward). Likewise I also prefer a really exuberant, uncontrollable pup (read:Kinta!) to a quiet/laid back dog. It is easier to razz down than razz up - and dogs calm down as they get older -so I want them to maintian some enthusiasm . In regards to the 'come' question - no I haven't taught it - I never thought of it actually, but you do raise a good point. I guess because the 'front' is used on so many exercises, is it actually teaching them where 'come' is..... and if you use 'come' loosely (come on a walk being different to come in the ring), would it really be useful? Not saying you do Cosmo, but just throwing thoughts around ;). As for the targetting, I *think* this has helped Leo also with a more 'wrap around' heel - I only recently started teaching it, but if I tell him 'close' he will come into a lovely position.... I really feel his heeling has improved out of sight in the last 12 mths.... lots of work to get it right though, isn't it!

Good question! I honestly don't know . Leo is my first, and I don't think he has reached his prime yet ;). I heard someone say that dogs are usually in their prime between the ages of 4-5.... who knows?

There are so many varieties of how to teach heel nowadays. I taught Leo by simply stepping off and rewarding the right position. I would never do that again. It doesn't really help them understand what 'heel' is and it is such a complex exercise. It means that he looses it on the turns etc,etc,etc. With Kinta i'm planning on teaching position first, but a few times while LLW she has placed herself in perfect 'heel' position which I have clicked and rewarded. But i'm planning on teaching a stationary heel with the look up - glued to your leg- kay laurence positiong . I'll always be asking her to 'find' heel from a variety of positions, then only adding turns, then adding the movement. With Leo - 2nd time round, I refined heeling by C&T perfect position and throwing food away from me.... he'd come back and 'find' heel. This has helped his position and attention 100% - sometimes when I watch his video's i'm really proud of the position he offers, so I like this method. We went back to static turns to help that (and going back to it!). Just interested in other people's heeling techniques and how they feel about them - like/dislike Also - do you teach rear end awareness so that the dogs can zip there bum around for left turns etc - I find it makes the heeling much neater, but it doesn't help when your dog doesn't realise they have an Ass! LOL! I did end up teaching it eventually and it has helped immensely! Do you do left-about-turns or U turns? I do left about - I prefer them ;)

don't know if this has been posted before - but what a sweet story:

LOL - yes I was just about to comment on the lazy dingo wagalot!

Great Idea Lab Lover. so if all goes to plan - we will have training on 14th April 2007 - KCC Park - Afternoon - probably around 2ish? I am at the Show there in the morning so I figured we can do some training after that since so many of you are near KCC. 28th April 2007 - with SARDOG - Morning - Say 9ish? This gives those that can't come in the arvos a possibility of coming! (Time can change - this was copied from my previous email!!!).

rightio then - oops fogot that - you did mention ie

nope - good practice - we can reward him when he doesnt bark *runs to put ear muffs in the car*

LOL - I like the retrieving one. Yep i've heard the 'he doesn't like doing this' sooo many times. My friend stopped training her dog coz 'she didn't want to do it' (the dog, not owner).... lol.