leopuppy04

14th - KCC - Afternoon 28th - knox - morning.... yep - seperate training by LL

- what just looks - I was expecting complete hooning of "LEEEETS PLAAAAY"!!!!! we could have a whole ton of dogs playing by the end of it!

that one - contact LL - Not organised by me so I know nothing The other two dates were organised by me and are just for 'trailling practice' or something similar :D

Lets hope that they don't get put next to each other in the stays then - we both know what would happen then -

ohhh dear......watch out everyone, 2 crazy Aussies(and owners ) starting in Novice :D emmm might be quite entertaining I don't think you will have anything to worry about, Cooper loves to make mum look like a fool in the ring who knows what he is going to do erm - I think that is an Aussie trait!!!!!! They are perfect angels when nobody is watching . I'm sooo hoping Leo does ok :rofl:

ooh Arya - as a bit of competition can I plz casually drop a sausage at random places around the ring??? :D I'll be the one - first time in Novice with a dog who after all the 'my dog heels better off lead talk' will probably have a dog that will heel terribly - just to spite me !

Not sure Maybe about 5ish?

ok - how about this - since there is such a big interest - how about we take bookings? Max of 10 - 15 people??? Dates I believe are still 14th and 28th. 14th Arvo and 28th Morning. Please PM me with your email address and which one/s you are able to go to - I will keep your email and then contact you directly for future meets.... First in best dressed.... that way there won't be too many people To re-quote the dates:

oh yeah, oh yeah.... go me :laugh:

Wagalot - use this it is much better than the VicDog - I hardly find anything in there aside from shows Obdeience: http://www.geocities.com/vicobedience/ agility: http://www.geocities.com/vicagility/ This will be my first Novice too - attack of the Aussies!!!! LOL - just make sure Leo beats Cooper

Hey Jules - I'm pretty sure the 14th will still be pretty low key and if there is more people than we bargained for we can just break up into groups . I am free over easter if you wanted to do anything

I would have put Eddie's mistake down to Bel's nerves and not a blanket thing. Kinta and Leo both sit automatically when I stop - when both in the show ring, they will stand - usually I will tell them to 'stand' at the end of a gait - their 'gait' insn't affected by heeling - it's a different command, and i've never had a problem with them sitting on the back. It's all about the way you handle - my body language for herding/obedience/agility/showing is completely different - and the dogs respond to that

Yay!!! Go the Aussies!! Go Cooper! Love the piccies - he looks almost as proud as Leo . :thumbsup: Such good scores - you must be thrilled

LOL - here I am with my obedience dogs that jump on people but that is only cos I haven't really trained them otherwise - they would never do any of the other things you say (table manners)... but I just had to giggle to myself It it can, if something is performed at the wrong time. But not always. I agree with Chezzyr - Like you Sway - i'm new to the ring - BOTH of my dogs probably do more obedience than showing and both realise (Leo has only been in the show ring about 3 times) the difference - neither have tried to sit when I stack them or deliberately break gait (only when I have run too fast - as I said - newbie ). So I don't think obedience affects their showing standards......

My network is only starting to build now. I like these threads that you raise Cosmolo coz it always keeps you thinking and 'on the ball' to a degree .... I like the idea of training days so that you can learn other methods off others as well..... being able to take advice from others IMO helps you find other ideas and avenues in dog training. Email lists and DOL are great for building up a wide network IMO. Haha - I know the brain sleeping feeling . I was interested in both instances - either you buying a dog for a specific purpose eg: agility/obedience and their temperament didn't fit, or perhaps a client buying for the same reason.... Training avenue's - maybe, maybe not - I really want to know to what extent people would go before 'giving' up on their dog - ie: would they exhaust all avenues of training with the risk of living with a type of dog you hadn't initially planned on, or would they put it into the 'too hard basket' and search for a better home? I don't think one is right or wrong, all of us have different expectations, but i'm just curious!

Of course. If I am unsure about anything i'd rather ask someone with expertise and learn from them than to go in 'blind' and potentially make the situation worse. I have a question though - what if you have a dog that is not initially what you expected - perhaps not suited to what you want, not the right temperament, training isn't going as you wish - would you ever reach a point where you would 'rehome' the dog or give up to an extent?

Or those that don't do obedience with their dogs because it doesn't allow them to express themselves naturally or quelches them

You're right Jesomil as if you have not been trained properly on how to use a clicker for example, you will never gain the same results as someone experienced with it and to a point affect the training of that particular job. I'll say it once and i'll say it 1 000 times ..... I think it is immensely important for ALL trainers to try all training methods regardless on their views on it. It is 'pointless' to be told that you can/can't do this because it is cruel or whatever. I may not be as experienced as a 'correction' trainer as I am a 'clicker' trainer (actually I don't think i'm an experienced trainer at all, but a dud ) but I know the mechanics behind 'correction' training and have used it before. I know how to use the tools correctly and appropriately so I think if and when I do need to use it i'll be able to use it adequately and appropriately. But if we are talking 'individual' dogs - I am sure if you came across a dog that you had to change your methods, there would be many trainers and mentors that you could turn to to help you out in terms of the training..... In terms of answering your question - I hope I haven't confused YOU and that it makes sense

LOL - i'm starting to think that everybody knows everybody in the dog world Yeah - she told me she was interested in Brittany's before she got Murphy! I can't complain with her breed of choise though

Interesting - does a dog ever 'stop' learning heel, or do you meant hat he as yet is not fully aware of where heel is? IMO, proofing for heel is something constant. I took my boy in for Novice training yesterday and it was a 'disaster'.... sure he 'heeled' but he wasn't 'there'.... my bad because I have not really been training properly of late. He was just making a lot of minor errors that he shouldn't have/ didn't say 6mths ago . Constant proofing to keep them at their best...... Mind you I was VERY pleased he did a lovely constantine drop for the distance !

Absolutely - like you Cosmo - if I had a client come up to me and tell me that they were really not comfortable training using motivational methods and want to go back to using corrective methods coz they have used that for the past 20 years, quite successfuly, I wouldn't hesitate in allowing to train that way, nor would I a newbie who really didn't want to train using 'motivation' (by motivation i'm not meaning corrective trainers don't motivate the dogs, just using the 'names' given to types of training methods!). Although I prefer one method, I still *do* see myself as open minded. I still agree that there is not one way to train a dog, or any dog for that matter. Even one method that may work on dog A may not work in 6mths time..... Like you said Cosmo - you'll be interested to see what I would do if Georgie was one of my dogs or a clients dogs - perhaps she would be one dog where my 'preferred' method wouldn't work.... i'm quite willing to exhaust other methods of training. As always - whatever works for the dog, which is why I would 'never' say I would 'never' use method x on a dog as invariably, there will come a time when you have to . Each to their own though, I think it is safe to say that each of us have our own 'preferences' and would try and exhaust those methods 'first' before switching training styles to gain success. Doesn't mean one is right and wrong, but just what and how we prefer training as individuals

You raise excellent points Cosmolo. On the most part, IME flooding a dog through a tunnel is fine.... but as always - it all comes down to the dogs. There have been dogs that have come out worse for wear from going through the tunnel and becoming positively phobic of it because of trying to be forced through. Perhaps the 'trainer' wasn't flooding correctly.... but in all honesty, I don't have a problem with it - it is the same as 'flooding' a dog over the A frame - sometimes it is the best way for them to overcome their fears. As LL said - I think everybody should keep an open mind about ALL training methods - to blanket one in or out, simply means you are shortening your expertise, not to mention, there will without doubt, if you are training long enough, come a time where you simply cannot use positive methods or corrective methods on a particular dog. Currently, I find that 'positive' methods work wonders for my two, but i'm not denying that I may come across a dog that will thrive better on corrective training than positive.... just like some kids thrive on being told 'positive' things, while others thrive on being 'disciplined'.... If you say you are all against one particular method IMO, you'll eventually draw a short straw and have to eat your words... don't ya think? So Cosmolo - do you see yourself as open minded??

Yes, you are right - you can look for the good and the bad, but I do find IME, that *many* tend to get focussed on one thing only...... perhaps it is poor instruction on their part but I do see a lot that will correct effectively and well timed, but miss perfect opportunities to reward simply because 'the dog is doing what it is supposed to do'. I try and encourage the other way around - reward when the dog is doing 'what it is supposed to do' and try and 'ignore' to a degree the misbehaviour. Don't get me wrong though - many people *still* miss plenty of opportunities to reward She sounds like an interesting dog! I don't know what I would do in certian situations..... sometimes you never know until you are presented with the problem! I think you can - but then, you just said yourself, that you aren't talking about corrections. The dog, although initially fearful of something can be taught to absolutely LOVE it because of the rewards it gets. The feeling of pleasure can over-ride the initial feelings that they had for it.... re-conditioning to a degree. I believe this is what the 'click to calm' method is based on - I have not yet done any work on it, but am keen to see/ hear responses about it. Isn't that why for many dogs, the obstacle that they feared the most will soon become their most loved obstacle? What I do see as wrong however was if, say for example you were to 'correct' a fearful dog for not doing an obstacle when they are unsure of it - not that the people involved in this discussion would!

See Cosmo - still not working .... naughty me . In terms of your question "can a dog enjoy the sport after recieving a correction" - I think it depends on more than one factor. I know that for both of mine a correction, no matter how mild (but strong enough to offer a change of behaviour) DOES affect their training. In fact it tends to make them more 'disobedient' for want of a better word. I haven't really looked into the how's and why's.... i've just chosen not to correct. It doesn't work for them or me. BUT it doesn't mean that I will shun others that use it or say i'll 'never' train a dog with a correction chain (mine or a clients). I find that the positive training keeps them in the training frame of mind that I want them to be in. Not saying you can't achieve that without positive methods, but *I* tend to have difficulties. So that brings me to my next point - I think it depends on the trainer itself. If I train correction based, I get more frustrated. The dogs sense that and in essence 'shut down'. My favourite quote for training "if you look for the bad, you'll find it. If you look for the good you'll find it". I choose to look for the good. Reward in small steps and keep your eye out for minor improvements and choose to ignore minor faults of 'disobedience'..... give your dog every chance to succeed on its own. If I didn't have this attitude, then I personally probably still won't be training as i'd be too frustrated with it. Why? Because if i'm told - your dog didn't sit - correct it - then I start to feel like my dog isn't good enough - why didn't he sit, he sits every other time, and I begin to get irrational about it..... result - I'll keep correcting because the dog is *still* not sitting.... grrr... I think - WHAT is wrong with this dog - he has been able to sit for the past 5 years!!! I end up walking off in a huff. Note that this is me personally and not what everybody else may be like. That is what I was like with my first dog. I'd get super frustrated at training when the only problem was that she simply wasn't doing it because of the vibes I was giving her. When I switched to 'positive' (I use that term loosely) training, she and I came along in leaps and bounds. Does that mean that I chuck all 'correction' training out to the wind - absolutely not. I think that this could go the other way too. Especially with a 'gruff' bloke who doesn't want to be seen as 'prissy' carrying around food. The training method depends on the individual and their dog and to me, that is what interprets what method to use. I think that I am fairly open minded in that aspect. If it works, then there is no reason to change it. Yes, I meant a misunderstanding of the behaviour itself. Both of my dogs are very sensitive to feelings and body language (I know all dogs are, but these guys to me, seem to be a lot moreso than i'm used to). A slight change in my body language can result in a completely different response.... so I have to try my best to be consistent ;). Usually an 'act of disobedience' is simply because i've been looking at the dog or something - eg: heeling wide - not disobedience, but because i'm looking at the dog, which pulls my shoulders back, which causes him to heel wide..... look straight and I have good heeling.. Part of training for me, is to find out what consequences would affect the dogs behaviour. That changes all of the time, dependent on the circumstance. Ask Leo to sit and he spots another dog - he doesn't care if I withold the treat because by breaking he got to say 'hello'..... so my 'consequences' change with the context. Define 'correction'? Physical correction..... I rarely give one.... never say never . Perhaps what i'm asking is too much for the dog eg: heeling with a crowd of people eating hot dogs. If i'm consistently loosing attention, then i'll go back a pace - sit in heel position with your attention on me.... does that make sense? You do what I want, gets you what you want.... trying to think of another way to explain but i'm really struggling :D. I've never really had a situation where the consequences were of no importance..... maybe i'm lucky . But if my dog has not 'complied' for 3 tries, i'll go back a step - perhaps the distraction was too high - so back a step I go so that the dog can succeed and then gradually move up to where I started...... I don't know whether this is makins sense or not, but i'm just trying to explain how the correction is NOT given, but the dog is still working for what it wants and realises that all good things come from me....

It makes so much sense when I justify it in my own mind... then I read what I write and i'm like.... huh?! LOL! Go 'way Ness - I don't like you anymore :D I don't like people who play mindgames