avenglenn

I think the Jade whistles are about $A60- or there abouts. There is no way Glenn would give me his, he wears it to bed!!! I can use the plastic one - when I am not trying to work a dog - Glenn tells me its because I am trying to hard - thus the strange noises that come out - I will try and relax the lips more The workshop is on the 2nd and 3rd (sunday and monday) of October Regards, Neece

Tell me its not a sheepdog whislte or I am going to be green with envy I have been practising using one of those little plastic whistles for months - I sit in the car to and from work whistling to the songs on the radio (just as well I drive alone or my passenger would be insane by now). So I go down the paddock to practice on the dogs - and all I get is a thrrrrrr sound and a lot of spit :D So husband (who can use one like a bird) tells me to relax the lips !!!! and if we are like any other married couple in this world - those simple words can become 'fighting' words - So I relaxed the lips - still no luck - so I pulled out the trusty referees whistle!!! Alistair gave Glenn a 'jade' whistle from NZ because he said that he uses the whistle so beautifully - he told me to keep practising with the plastic - I got the hint It was a lovely cast and I was a proud - however Cressy is a different day and knowing Matti she will bring me back to earth with a thud - not to worry I will still love her - and all my dogs not matter how they perform. Wish I could say the same for the sheep I am so looking forward to the workshop in Canberra - if anyone of the list is going let me know. I am staying at Karne Edwars overnight as there was no accommodation left. Neece

Hi Tracey, Yes it comes down to what a trainer is comfortable with - Alistair Dicksons (or however he spells his surname I never get it correct) has this Border Collie that had the most eye I had seen in a dog - wow was she sticky. I said to Alistair you will have trouble with her - his comment was, no - I will get that eye out of her in no time - and he did. Now if you saw the dog work, you would think it was a dog with just a nice amount of eye - he is an amazing sheepdog trainer. My Matti can get very sticky with her eye - she has a tad to much and it can cost me points at obstacles as she wants to 'stick' and not obey her side commands. Good news for Melbournites - I went to David Higgins new place for a training session yesterday and had a wonderful time. What David is setting up for the city based dogs at Tullamarine is excellent - the facilities will be great when its all finished. I did some casting practice with Matti getting ready for the Cressy trial and I was a proud mum - she did a beautiful 800m cast - in a strange paddock and finished beautiful and deep at the other end - and the wind was blowing so strong and back towards me she could not hear me once was sent - so she had to do it all on her own. Now I can watch her stuff it up at the Cressy Trial and bring me back to earth with a thud Just have to love sheedog trialling it really shows just how human we are and how smart our dogs are at manipulating us. Regards, Denise

Hi all, Bad news is Bernard can't make it to Melbourne this trip Good news is I have booked my flights and will be attending the Bungadore workshop - so looking forward to catching up with some NSW and ACT people It should be great fun - and sooo looking forward to learning some new stuff Avenglenn

Personally I don't like the term loose eyed, I think it is derogative to all dogs - as the majority of the top three sheep trial dogs in this country would be termed loose eyed!! A lot of eye is not good in a trial dog or work dog for that matter. My Matti is strong eyed and we are forever fighting on course - it is only through some great help from very experienced trialers that I have her moving on her commands each and every time in some very sticky situations I think Bernard is just more comfortable with working with breeds that he knows - being Border, Kelpies, Koolies and natually New Zealand Heading dogs - still no word back yet from NSW - so not sure if he can make it this time to Victoria - if not he will be down next year. I am looking forward to the workshop in Bungadore - should be great fun and hopefully will get to meet up some people from various lists. Regards, Denise

Possible Herding Clinic in Victoria late September / Early October, Hi all -I am jumping the gun a bit as I am still confirming with the NSW people if this will happen, however, we may have one of NZ top handlers in Victoria late September / Early October for a herding workshop. If not the same person is holding a workshop in Bungandore NSW early October. Cost etc for the Vic workshop would be the same as NSW - $90 per dog per day ($180 for the weekend) - as the trainer has no experience with loose eyed breeds the workshops will be restricted to Kelpies, Border Collies and Koolies. As soon as I know if it will proceed I will advise via this link - if not, if not I will catch up with some of you guys no doubt at the Bungandore workshop. Best regards, Avenglenn

Beautifully said Vickie I so want to see you guy working - the photos look excellent, you will have to let me know when you enter your first trial Re the Astra dog - not sure what I am going to - plus I have to consider that Matti will be having a litter next year and I will want to keep one of those. So I may stay with just one border and the rest kelpies - and if I never become a successful three sheep trialer - then so be it ) Not wanting to come of the head is a training issue - these people need to do more off-balance work with their dogs - it can be overcome with training. Matti has a stack of eye and I did have this problem with her - John gave me a few exercises and now she will come off when asked - almost everytime - at Deni in the Novice she stuck at the pen on me and cost me a stack of points - however, I was still very pleased with her run ) The head is the place the we want the dog to be - however, they must come off when asked -and tas above this is also where to much eye can cause problems and the dog will 'stick' and not obey its command - the eye takes over. Footwork - beautifully explained - its like watching a very good dancer - they are always anticipating the next move of the sheep and as you say good dogs will watch the leader and make sure they have it covered. Natural break is when the dog will naturally keep giving ground on its stock without being asked. For example the dog is constantly reading its sheep and breaking out . I know my pup may end up with to much break as she matures - only time will tell I will describe an exercise we do for three sheep trialing: Handler with sheep in front and then dog in front of sheep working the head - handler is pushing sheep onto the dog. Now dogs with natual break will keep giving ground and stay on the head, however, they won't close on the sheep they will keep going backwards or arcing backwards (without tail turning) this is natural break that is bred into the dog. Break can also be trained its just not as natural or pretty to watch - not all dogs will break naturally and it does not make them any less a dog. Does the above make sense?? Neece the Kelpies

Hi Sidoney and re the hook pen, Ever seen those photos of dogs going across he backs of a few hundred sheep penned up ready for shearing - that is what O'bree dogs are known for - basically a yard type in the old fashioned terminology. Xia is bred to be an allround dog - her mother is now woking at Avenel as a paddock dog with Mary. Gamble her sire works at Weribbee for a living as a paddock / yard dog working both Cattle and Sheep on a daily basis. I think Wally (as good a friend he is) is missing the point about me and my kelpies - I don't have real work for them to do on a daily basis and like most people I am limited to how many dogs I can own. So I need to have dogs that I can trial - I can't walk around with my head in the clouds - I need to be realistic about my dogs, their breeding and their trial ability - if I am ever going to be a serious breeder. Its hard to describe the hook pen. I don't believe Wally has ever used it so I don't know how he can express an opinion - I may be wrong - perhaps he has trialed with it. Matti and I have used the hook pen release on many occassions at training with the Cressy Club and it is excellent - if you watch the winner of the Brisbane trial that Tracy posted - and how the sheep are drawn onto the dog - with the hook pen that would not happen - the dog would have got a lovely clean cast. The sheep would have simply turned and looked at the dog and remained where they were put. Neece and the Kelpies

Where to Start - so many answers so this post is very dis-jointed - just tried to cover a lot of questions. Wally - You are very aware that I love my Kelpies and I love trialing them and I will defend my dogs to the world. However, I am simply a realist and I don't walk around with my eyes shut thinking that every Kelpie bred in this world is perfect and can three sheep trial. Matti can just three sheep trail - she is not great at it, however, I enjoy running her. Tanya and Casey would still live with me if I believed every Kelpie could three sheep trial. OK Answers to other forum questions: O'Bree dogs are shearing shed dogs. Matti and Tanya were both bred to O'Brees Gamble. Doubt that you will find much on them on the web. Karrawarra - my words were - they have a lot of bite in them - however that can be controlled and lessens with age. It is well known that Karrawarra has a lot of bite - nothing new?? Hook Pen - Wally are you related to the Dodges - - they were also against it and were out voted and the Dodges have some of the most beautiful casting dogs in the country - and why did they not want the pen. Because it puts all competitors on an equal playing field regarding the cast. Natural Distance and Break - Wally don't agree, you can train some distance and some will come with age, however, it needs to be bred into the dogs. Look how much distance and break Foxy has at 6 months - she has as much distance as any border - this natural break was bred into her (thanks to Tommy) - I have not trained it into her. All I have trained at this age is that Foxy always arcs and never takes a step in towards her sheep when I give a side command - unless I ask her to take ground off her sheep. I don't even know how this point can be argued - look at any good trial boder pup - they are naturally off their sheep - its breeding and trianing combined. Heading ability - is how hard the dog really wants to be on the head of its sheep - a must in all good working dogs. Eye - I have heaps of experience on this one - last thing you want in a three sheep trial dog is a lot of eye. Just a touch of eye is what is required. If I missed anything let me know. Neece and the Kelpies.

At the last Deni Three Sheep Trial I was sitting around the fire talking to Pip Hudson - he actually saw the great Kelpies like Johnny, Ceasar, Sugar trial - and he knew the legends like Parsons and Scanlon. I sat transfixed while he spoke about all the old dogs and the old trialers - it was an evening I will never forget. Ross Dodge who also saw Johnny trial and told me that the dog was a terrible tail turner and every film taken of him was stopped when he tailed turned of his stock. It is important to remember that trials had very different rules back then. My belief over the last few years is that Karrawarra blood is the key to breeding a successful kelpie who is capable of three sheep trialing at a high level. The most important aspects of a trial dog are natural distance, natural break, exceptional heading ability, patience and footwork - so are the keys to producing a Kelpie that can three sheep trial on a par with the borders. Re my Kelpies - I have believe I have three of the above requirements in Gena and three of the above requirements in Matti. In Foxy I beleive I have all five - only time will tell if she makes a successful dog. Billie the Border has everything - however, her downfall is she is so in-bred - daughter back to father! - however I knew that when I bought her. Kelpies have not got to the stage of Border Collies - most of the Three Sheep Border Collies are bred specifically for the sport. I do believe there are some Kelpie breeders now breeding for the Yard Trial Arena - more in Victoria than NSW. NSW is still breeding all round utility dogs. Denise

Excellent call by the judge - it is an exhibition sport after all and there is nothing worse than feral sheep making good dogs and good handlers look medoicre - simply because the sheep have no idea what a dog is. Cressy two years ago - we had two sheep die on course (they were ill) so the whole mob had to be changed for another. Then the new mob was difficult and also jumped fences etc. Good news is it looks like Victoria may be changing the rules to allow people who have not won a Novice to have a cross - and continue on the course without a score - at least people get to have a run and most importantly learn . Denise

Ah Wally :D And the debate rages - should sheep be worked down before a trial? YES I do believe so Should the NZ Hook Release pen be used at all trial? YES I do believe so Three Sheep trialing is so far removed from real work that I do agree with the current line of thinking by some triallers that the sheep should be worked prior to an event There is nothing worse than seeing sheep that have only ever been worked by a bike - on a trial ground with a dog trying to work them - so thus I have also been told to select what trials I attend so that my dogs are given the best possible chance of success. I hate seeing good dogs and good handlers made look foolish because the Trial Management have not selected sheep that are worked by dogs as a rule. Now - Wally, Alistair Dickinson is one of the best Sheepdog Handlers New Zealand has produced - how many Long Heads has that man won. I don't think a few wild sheep at Ruffy would put him off. He just has standards - in NZ all sheep are worked prior to a trial. Off the topic - I am going to use Alistairs Kiwi Lad over Billie - Aussie Border x New Zealand Heading Dog - should be interesting. Billie is so in-bred I have to do something. I will most likely be at Ruffy next year - maybe even give my Billie a run before Deni :D Avenglenn

Hi Wally, Until a Kelpie can run at 90+ in top company, with the Gregs, Jimmy's / Alistairs etc in attendance - you will never convince me :D Maybe Foxy will convince me one day :D Did you notice on the videos re the Fidelis link the bridge used in Queensland trials - us Victorians would kill for a bridge like that - how beautiful and wide and inviting to the sheep - not like the poxy little narrow opening we have to live with down this end of the world. Maybe now that Sue and I are the only female members of the Cressy Old Mens Working Sheepdog Club, we can start to have some influence and more trials and some variations on the normal format :D Avenglenn

oooo, which kennel are you looking at for the blue merle? I don't think there are that many. Maybe they're related to Trim. Hi Vickie, Janet Beale from Astra is coming out to visit again and staying with us - she is bringing two dogs with her this visit. Janet and I are toying with the idea between us we may purchase a top winning UK trial bitch and join her to a Blue Merle dog before she leaves the UK - and as such she would have her puppies in quarantine in Australia. Or I may just purchase one of her blue merle bitches. However, there is a very nice bitch that Ross Dodge ran at the Cressy Trial earlier this year - and I would like to purchase her - she won the Novice on her first outing and when I saw her run I just fell in love with her. If Ross would sell he is asking $3K for her and my father in law has a young bitch that I also like so I have lots of options - and as you can imagine it is much more to bring in an export from the UK. Of course it all depends if Glenn wants to keep a Gena x Buster pup which at this stage I don't believe he will as he does not have the time to devote to a puppy at the moment. Avenglenn

Hi Wally, How true, however we can't condem them for that - because don't they just do that job beautifully. Even me the mad Kelpie devotee that I am had to bite the bullet and admit that the Kelpies are no match on three sheep for the Trial bred borders (of course I still have my secret weapon in Foxy - I kept telling the border men all I needed in the kelpie was the correct breeding - so simply give the task to Mary to breed what I wanted and wamo she does). I enjoy working Billie - and I am looking forwad when I step her out at the Deni trial next year for the very first time (and very nervous about it) - will also be stepping out Foxy if she is ready. neece

Hi Sparty, Yes - everyone loves Matti. She is a sweetie, Suzanne Clothier described her as a Golden Retriever in a Kelpie body Well Matti will be joined next year, the problem is the dog that I have my eye on is only 4 weeks old at the moment and he has to prove himself as a working dog at Avenpart before he will be used for stud duties. Mary has purchased him from James Dudley Boanong's his sire is Boanong Buster and his dam is Karawarra Gift - so you can see why I am so excited about him. Joining this dog to Matti and maybe even Foxy will give me almost pure Karawarra blood. And then Mary has a dog on the way from her old Glenville Smoke lines - she has so much old blood from the good old dogs its just amazine - she still has semen from the very famous Avenpart Zondo. neece

Hi Barb, We are still planning on visiting and looking forward to seeing Nans dogs work - however, no I am still a devoted Kelpie fan and always will be. I have one trial border now and I am in negotiations for another - not sure if the next one will be a blue merle import from the UK or a young aussie bred dog that I have my eye on. Will let you know ) Neece

Well then Sparty - hubby will just have to have a Georgena x Boanong Buster puppy - Buster is the winner of the 2003 yard Dog Championships and the 2004 Working Kelpie Council National Field Trial Championship. One of this litter is already booked for a top ISD handler based in the Netherlands - it should be a great litter and so looking forward to it I just wish she would hurry up and come into season Kelpies are soft, cuddly dogs - you took the proof on the weekend !

Hi Wally I don't know that I am any better with words - however, to me watching Greg Prince three sheep trial is like watching ballet (I have said this on many occassions). He can read a dog and read his stock - he is just amazing and beautiful to watch work a dog - there is no one better in Australia and his record proves this - he is even better than the great Jeff Jolly. Ross Dodge in his younger years would have given him a run for his money - and still does at 80 years of age on some occassions. Me personally for training, I use a combination of Greg's Training methods and my father in laws methods - and this works for me. Greg has taught me the basics - and my father-in-law has taught me the technical points - like the things never to let a young pup do if it is going to be a three sheep trial dog - without the pup ever knowing any other way of working - its very natural and makes so much common sense once applied - and the method has been used on both my young pups with amazing results. And most importantly for me - John has spent hour upon hour teaching me and drilling me on how to work an obstacle - for that knowledge I can never repay him. Re training - I like to use a lunging whip rather than poly pipe - however, I do use both - and a cap which Greg uses. I prefer to work with the dog than dominate the dog - and I like to leave lots of dog in the dog- again this is Gregs way. Avenglenn

I have to agree with this - I have one three sheep trial bred border collie - and as great as she is re working three sheep - she is high maintenance when working. I purchased her specifically for her breeding and the fact that the stud has produced many successful, top line three sheep trial dogs. And I got what I purchased, a very promising young dog who is so very hard on the head of her stock - exactly what a three sheep dog should be. Can I trust her with an every day job - no. However, I can and do trust my kelpies - I will leave them to get even my runny sheep and bring them down to the yards without management - I would never trust that job to the Border - even when she is fully trained. She just does not have the work ethic that the Kelpies have. However, she is a better three sheep dog than any of my Kelpies - in saying this - I do believe my puppy Avenpart Firefox will give her a run for their money when she starts trailling. You have to see this pup to believe its a Kelpie - she works like a border! My two favourite red and tans - Grandmother (Avenpart Yoshi) and her grandaughter (Avenpart Firefox).

Hello Wally, You do realise that next time I see you M - Wally it will be - this is now your official name ;)) Wally and Wizz!!!! Forum we are good friends by the way, so its OK for me to say this I guess when it comes to dogs, everyone has to purchase from a breeder that can supply what that person is looking for in a dog. As Wally knows - I want first and foremost in my dogs is pure paddock ability and I don't give a hoot if any of my dogs can back or work the yards (they all can) - I just don't do it, because i have no interest in Yard dog trails. As such I choose and stay with Avenpart because of their paddock ability, and because they are tall, fine athletic type dogs. Later this year we are going to give Cattle Trials a go - which should be fun. And I will have to get my girls ready for the WKC Nationals next year - which means that Wally has to spend some time teaching me how to do Yard Work (yuk) However, as it is the Nationals I will have to bite the bullet and let my girls do some yard work - well maybe just Avenpart Georgena Regards, Avenglenn

I think Travis and me are coming along - my very spoilt silver mini poodle. As we are newbies is there anything special I need to bring. Also Travis has two pins and two screws in his hind leg - the screws hold wire in place that now forms his hock tendon - he does NADAC Agility with no problem and unless people are told they would never guess that he even has any issues. He leads a very normal life - do experience people out there think it would be OK to run him?? He runs around mad at our place with the Kelpies Thanks in advance for the help

Wow - you guys in WA are lucky - we have about 2 Utility Trials a year if that - we either have Yard Trials or Three Sheep Trials and they have just introduced Cattle Trials which I am planning on entering next year - if I am brave enough. I have been told that Ken Atherton is a master at working Kelpie in a Three Sheep Trial - Ken has very similiar lines to me as at one stage we were considering sending Gena over to one of his dogs - however the breeding was to similiar, so there was no point. So hoping one day to get over and meet and watch Ken work. Not sure that working a dog in three sheep trial that does not have the talent - for me it would be frustrating and I am not that good a handler - that is just me and other people may find it different. Anyway, we may have another three sheep border joining the kelpies soon - in negotiations at the moment to buy a dog that has been started by a very good handler and is almost ready to trial - I have seen her work and I do like her a great deal ) Need the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

I would agree - however, how many utility trials are run a year - maybe 4 or 5 in the whole of Australia - maybe a few more, however, not many at all compared to the other types of trials? So that leaves, Yard Dog Trials and Three Sheep Trials - and then it depends on the dog you have - sometimes we don't get the choice of what we want to do it comes down to the dogs strengths. Some dogs, no matter how much training are not going to make it in the three sheep world - they are born to be yard dogs - and some dogs are born to be paddock dogs. And Border Collies are the ultimate three sheep trial dog - that coming from a Kelfpie devotee - however, it is very true and I can speak from experience. In Victoria we have a lot of breeders who just breed Borders for the Three Sheep Trial ring - I purchased my border (Viewfield Billie) from such a stud - as I knew what I wanted - I wanted first and foremost a three sheep trial dog - don't have a need for a dog that can work on the farm - I wanted footwork and style. My neighbours who also wants to get into three sheep trial have just recently purchased to Farm Bred Borders (against my advise, however, they did not want to spend large amount of money on a trial bred dog). Now there is no comparison between the farm bred dogs and the trial bred dog. Billie (trial bred) has amazing foot work and cover (on three sheep), natural cast, natural break - and can dance backwards on the head of her sheep naturally while they continue to walk towards her (give ground)- she is a born and bred trial dog. Kellie and Tess (farm bred) - can move sheep like farm dogs, I been honest with my nneighbours (they are also good friends) that these dogs will never make in the world of three sheep trialling - it is just a fact.

Hi Vickie, Well that makes sense because in a three sheep trial you are always relatively close to your sheep - so the chances of the dog crossing can be controlled - Alistair would say something like this. Interest point with Gena - if I try to drive with her, she won't - she will run back behind me to change her directions (flank)- I can be 100m away and she will still come all the way back and around me to change her direction - never would she cross between me and the sheep. Now I think she knows that I always three sheep trial her - Glenn does general work with her - so she has no issue with crossing between Glenn and the sheep. One set of rules with me - another set with Glenn !!!! Dogs are smart - they never cease to amaze me with their intelligence!!! Where do you train at ? Why are they all wanting to teach the drive and cross drive (I think its good - just curious why) - is it so they can say they can do it? I may join you being a Rooster and see if I can teach Matti to drive Don't hold you breath it may take me a while - not sure I am even a good enough trainer to do it - she is very hard to pull off the head of her sheep - has way to much eye which is why she is not a great three sheep dog - often sticks on me despite all the training we do to counteract it Neece the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle