NaturallyWild

Yes HD can allow for the development of arthritis, but does not always occur. The current research available shows a very high correlation between HD, being overweight and the development of arthritis. Many dogs with bad HD but were of good weight and fit did not show arthritis till much later in life (eg 13 or so years). New xrays would show if the had been any changes in the hips and if the HD had gotten worse Joint Guard can be found on the net - just search well as there are big price differences. Glucosamine is found in Joint Guard. My only concern is the high levels of Chondroitin sulphate of which very little is absorbed in the guts due to the large molecular size. Otherwise fairly good product. Technyflex can be found at various sites eg greenpet.com.au - i supply the human labelled product (exact same thing) which can also be used for animals. Joint supplements take about 1 month to take effect (and you usually give a larger dose initially and then drop down to a maintenance dose). Vitamin C - human grade is fine. Ester C is a brand that is in a format that is easier on the digestive system. You can supply the vitamin c gradually increasing the amount until bowel tolerance (ie loose stools) and then reduce the level back a bit until a better level is achieved. I would also look at an omega 3 supplement - eg fish oil (not just tinned sardines as they loose most of their oils) or flaxseed oil to help with things such as inflammation. Massage, bowen, acupuncture, trigger point, hydrotherapy, chiropractic, etc are all useful in keeping the muscles and joints in good health, better movement and providing some pain relief. If you are interested in doing some massage yourself - if you saw a therapist they should be able to show you some specific things to do to help with the problem. Gently stroking through the muscles will at least help with circulation. The main things that help with joint diseases are keeping the weight off (i prefer to see slightly under weight unless there are other medical issues involved), keeping the joints moving, the muscles strong, and supplementing to provide the nutrients for the body to stay in the best possible health. The earlier you can implement these type of things the better the result will be. Many of these i often advise as a preventative.

Yes, absolutely - dogs, cats, humans..... As stated it depends on how quickly it happens and the level of damage that has occurred. I have been doing some work with and old guy in south australia that has his own muscle manipulation technique and has had several strokes (gets around ok (zimmer frame) with full use of his body). Whilst in hospital a doctor taking students around pointed out that this "backyard" therapist would never be able to work again. The old guy treated himself whilst in hospital and the next time the doctor came around with students proclaming the same thing - he promptly grabbed the arm strap above the bed and pulled himself up saying "you mean i won't be able to this". Would have loved to have seen his face. Natural recovery occurs but takes time. The sooner the nerves and muscle can be stimulated the quicker the bodies response is to recover. There are also suppliments that help with nerve, etc issues. Like with humans, some rehab work can be very beneficial. As mentioned there is also the risk of the brain going a bit haywire from lack of oxygen in the stroke causing behaviour problems - PTS is sometimes the only option.

What are the things you are doing (can you list them)? Can you be a little more specific as to the amount and type of exercise they each have. What type of food do they eat (on average during a regular week)? How heavy are they (under weight, normal, over weight)? How did the vets diagnose the arthritis? Are there other medications that they are given regularly (eg vacs, worming, etc)? Arthritis is a disease that can occur at any time in life so it is not unusual for it to occur early. Pm me this info if you want.

Make more sense now - the performing without the need for a reward relates to the 2000 reps thing i was mentioning.

Any behaviour (wanted or unwanted) can occur in ony a single rep - its just the motivation for the associated end result that repeats that behaviour. Unwanted behaviour tends to get our attention so we respond to it, and dogs are extremely social animals so it is (a) very rewarding and (b) they made the choice for the behaviour which resulted in attention - why wouldn't you do the bad things if your a dog that is stuck a back yard and only paid attention for 30min at the end of the day or when your "naughty" A lot of people also make the wanted behaviour to complex which means there will be a lot of hit and miss without reward - taking longer for their wanted behaviour to occur in the dog - compare opening a fridge and bringing back a beer to just bringing back a beer that is in front of the dog - very different tasks, but could each be considered a single behaviour. Be a splitter, not a lumper. SARDOG - no it wasn't Tom i was refering to (but we may have discussed this over a few scotches - hard to remember), it was actually Suzzane Clothier, plus a talk at the APDT conference un the USA that i got some of that info. - Yessss have to catch up again soon. Genetics definitely plays a part in the speed and intensity of the physiology that happens when learning occurs, but it also dictates preferences for the motivating factors eg border collie - movement, vs lab - food. OzPetR - if you remove the treats (rewards) before the behaviour is well and truly learned - what is going to motivate the dog to do the behaviour? The trick is in how the treats are given (or not given) most of the time (are they jackpots, and can you create non-contingent rewards, etc).

Lablover, i have some info somewhere at home about this from when i was overseas. Will track it down when i have a chance. It all really depends on what you define "learned". Obviously getting a repetitive behavioural response can occur within a single trial (eg you learn not to touch a hot plate after the first occasion, and you would learn to open a chocolate bar after the first time seeing and tasting one half opened - all animals are capable of this and its necessary for survival of the fittest). The trick to how quick this repetitive behaviour occurs depends on the motivation, complexity and similar experiences of the situation. If you can learn to setup situations where there is high motivation, low complexity and some similar compnents that guide the response, the behaviour will become repetitive quicker. The other type of learning i would think about is that which learning that results in an "automatic" response - this is where the term "proofing" comes in to most people minds. The info i was thinking about indicated that it takes a minimum of 2000 trials (or something like that) for the neural pathways to have been laid down specifically for this. Learning also occurs much quicker and is more permanent in the brain when the animal chooses the response to make rather than being forced, or lured too much into make the response. There are bichemical reactions that occur much higher when free choice is allowed. Will get back with specifics when i find it. ps. send me a copy of the indirect pressure stuff as well always love a read.

Diabetes is primarily a problem with the pancreas and there are several things that can be included and excluded to generally help the situation. Several meals should be given throughout the day (at least 2-3 meals) so an even level of sugar can be provided rather than the body having to work extra hard to deal with the one meal. Chromium is a highly useful suppliment as it is a glucose tolerance factor and is naturally found in brewers yeast. Vitamin E reduces the need for insulin. Consistent regular exercise to maintain a normal weight. Avoidand of foods that contain sugar (unless hypoglycemia is occurring) and foods that are high in fat (causes the pancreas to over work). Millet, rice, oats can be useful to provide the extra energy for fattening up. Green beans contain a hormonal substance closely related to insulin. Garlic reduces blood sugar. Foods that are alkalizing help to counter overacidity (eg many vegetables are) There are homeopathic treatments that may help the condition as well. These people need to get either much better information from their current vet or change vets - this can be a serious condition, but it does not have to be if they consult the experts. Please note none of the above information should be applied without consulting with a vet (that is experienced treating problem cases).

Avoid the collar for the time being. Questions to find out further - Does the dog bark like this if they are outside with it? Does the barking start when they leave the dog to go inside, or the dog can see them get home, etc? What times of the day does this tend to occur? Are there neighbours or some other thing that you can't hear that the dog maybe barking at? (eg when the barking starts go out and really concentrate on anything that could be starting the barking) Have they tried using a positive interuptor to distract the dog from the barking situation and then focus on rewarding for increasing periods of silence? Do they go out the dog a lot when it's behaving well in the back yard, or more so when the barking occurs? As mentioned before - what is their definition of "well socialised and stimulated" - need specifics? etc They could do with getting someone to assess the situation if they are about to resort to a bark collar on a 6month old.

Have you thought of trying someone that does bowen therapy. Bowen Therapy Association Just follow the links to find your nearest animal practitioner - i don't know if you are close to anyone. Always wise seeing seeing your vet if there is lameness, so you can get a diagnosis. If they think that numerous tests/scans/etc are required to find out the problem, ask them why they think this is the case (eg what indicates the need for those tests?) and could a trip to a physical therapist be beneficial. A large number of problems could (and should) be diagnosed by hand, and the further tests are to confirm and asses the amount of damage. Any good therapist will refer you on, or back to a vet if they cannot find, and/or fix the problem. Best of Luck Tim

Anyone interested in this topic should read Patricia McConnells new book "For the love of a dog". I haven't read it, put she was at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Conference when i was over in the states recently and gave two talks about this topic and read an snipet of her book at the closing of the conference - had everyone in tears. She is fantastic because she bask up emotions with scientific logic. Yes they love - and have a scarily large number of similarities to us - i guess thats why we love them so much

Very big assumption to make that they have no insurance and to suggest that they are likely to do something wrong. Instead it would be best to enquire as to their experience, qualifications, associations a part of, if covered by insurance, etc. Chiropractic can be an area that needs to be carefully watched, particularly those that use overly forceful methods (or any other physical therapy performed in this manner). Remember skills and knowledge do not come from certificates alone.

I think the best joint suppliment on the market at the moment is Joint Gaurd due to the levels and types of substances included in it. I am hoping to become the distributor of a new joint suppliment any time soon that is better than any of the joint suppliments out there as is in a form that is far more bioavailable than the others. Having to deal with the AVPMA though - tough job. Try mixing your joint suppliment with foods that your dog find irresistable. I've had people mix it in with some rolled oats to soak first and then mix in a can or two of sardines. Dissapears in seconds. Experiment a little with different food mixes, and maybe cut down on the amount of the suppliment you initially put in - you can build this up latter as it becomes accepted.

Your on the right track scratchcat. Arthritis depending on the severity and situation can be improved dramatically (so much so that no symptoms are noticed). Improtant things to be doing. As much exercise where possible (controlled if you can) - this will work in several ways - building up joint strenght, removing some of the arthritis build up and encouraging replacement of various tissues within the joint - swimming or more so underwater treadmills are the best of these as the weight is supported and joint impact is reduced (note swimming is not so effective for hind limb arthritis as dogs use their hindlimbs very little during swimming, this is why underwater treadmills are so good). Control the weight - less weight means less impact on the joints and less occurance of arthritis (this is why swimming/underwater treadmill is so good). I would prefer a dog to be a touch underweight, and work on building up muscle. Improvement in diet - providing all the right nutrients so the body can maintain (or build up) the joint health. This includes joint suppliments (glucosamine etc), omega 3s (fish oils etc), anti inflammatories/pain relievers (natural substances (like the ones you have) can aid in reducing inflamation and pain allowing the joint to be used more) and the general diet (as mentioned earlier natural raw can help a lot) - particularly raw meaty bones where natural forms of cartilage, collagen, calcium, etc can be obtained. Please note - any change in diet should be monitored for adverse reactions - including "natural product" not just manufactured drugs. Physical therapies are also important to maintain musclar-skeletal balance and health. This impacts on the joints again as healthy muscles and skeleton mean more effective exercise can be acheived, as well as the theraputic benefits of improved circulation etc. Keep up with what your doing - every little bit helps

All of this type of work is covered in t-touch work (by Linda Tellington-Jones). Body wraps, various forms of cavaletti and maze work, etc. All great stuff to create self awareness of limbs and muscles within your dog. If you have the materials at home try setting up lengths of wooden dowel (or ant other substitute) at slightly differing heights, spacings and directional changes. The other thing i find useful in increasing the back end awareness is teaching them to walk backwards.

I would walk away and ask for a refund. There are two main reasons you get your puppy into a puppy socialisation class. First is that they get a good socialisation with other different breeds of dogs and can learn to read their different variations of signals (communication). The second and most important is that they can further cement bite inhibition which should have already been learnt (or partially so) whilst in the litter. They need to learn to play and bite with other dogs and learn that biting to hard is not on and will stop play. Any puppy class should involve lots of small play sessions with the other dogs that are interupted by good stuff from the owners, compliance for something asked means the puppies get to go back to play, whereby creating an early level of control in distracting situations. Also futher socialisation with humans by being passed around and handled by everyone else and a few novel items intruduced. Like someone else said their class was like, the puppies and owners should be going non stop for the hour - what a waste of money on training the puppy. If you have information about training techniques etc, send it out in the mail. Absolutely rediculous that the trainer expected puppies to "behave" for an hour, and she is getting frustrated because they are not doing whats asked, she has no concept of learning, particularly if she wants to come across as being a purely positive type trainer (which is not possible because at some stage they have to stop the dog getting what it wants - "evil punishment for an hour").

Do you think your body language might have changed a bit - they are masters of reading this.........otherwise you have a freak computer literate dog Remember.... reward the heck out of him doing drops now, that way they are less likely to be an issue in the future

Just a few thoughts - hard to know what to do without seeing in person How do you 'know' this. A dog perception of what is being asked can be very different to what we believe they know. If Daegon is now suddenly having a punisher thrown into the equation, this can really confuse things for them. To me this is know evident with your description of the drop "slowing down", a behaviour that is often attributed to appeasement (ie "i know your angry - so i'll do very little so i don't upset you even further"). If he bahaves and doesn't "challenge" you in any other situations, why would it be only with the drop that the "challenging" occurs. To me there is confusion in the dogs mind of what is wanted and there is also less reward than punishment occuring. Is the food issue an indication of something internal not quite right? Do you see any desire for food at meal times when there is no competition for it - have you tried fasting for one or two days (as long as he is in good enough condition), does this increase the desire? There are plenty of natural products that can help with increasing hunger. Have you seen a vet or someone practising alternative therapies about the food issue? As suggested by a few, i would spend more time working on finding the things that motivate him, building that desire, and potentially transferring that value to something that you can control and make available at any time. If the desire is high enough, and there is a positive association with what a behaviour leads to, there should not be any hesitation in doing drops. Try 'marking' (clicking or other) any time you see him drop of his own accord and reward the hell out of him with what ever you can. Try and leave asking for a drop for a while until you see an improvement in desire to perform or offer the behaviour to you. Seeing a behaviourist or experienced trainer would definitely be the best way to go - but may not be an option at the moment with $2000 owing at the vet Best of luck

Would you take one that the vet has marked not due for vac for 3 years instead of annually Untill our COE is changed, no i would not. We need to get the DPI or whoever is responsible for the laws in each state to allow at least a titre test as being a suitable replacement for a current vaccine. After this we may be more likely to get it changed to 3 yearly vaccs. I emailed those in Vic responsible about 2 years ago and it didn't go very far - they wanted to know my agenda????? Probably time to pester them again.

What is it that is actually reinforcing in a fearful situation? What are the dogs focused on in a fearful situation and what is the thing that they would like changed? Like i said earlier how can praise and petting be reinforcing if providing treats in a treatment plan is not? eg if a dog was afraid of a stranger and every time they came into the room the dog was given lots of food treats, does this not create a positive association of the stranger to the dog - could not the same thing be done with petting/praise. Is it not the timing of the reward that reinforces the response. Rusky, what about negative punishment as by the example i gave eg owner leaves the dog as a response to the wrong behaviour? sorry I don't understand the question are you meaning police, army rescue or similar? I doubt these dogs are fearful, they generally are most affable and confident when not working. I thought if the dog were fearful it would not even be considered for such work. Part of my question was what are thresholds and do people consider them in treating fearful cases. What i mean is there are levels of reaction that a dog will give in response to a fearful situation. Does anyone think that it is useful in working with the dog whilst it is in its most reactive state (or high up there) - ie as i said it is likely that the owners in the real world will be in this situation and it would be beneficial that they have learned skills to deal with the situation in a positive manner that either helps with the problem or at the least minimises or has nil negative effects

Good stuff Nekhbet By habitual fear, do you mean that the owners response is part of a habitual response to a fearful situation (eg the dog screaming does so as it knows the owner will pick it up and take it away). Is this reinforcing (strenghtening the behaviour), or just stopping the behaviour from being broken ie not providing an oppertunity for the dog to learn the situation is actually not bad. Once again i don't see the petting or praising as being a reinforcer, but its the actions of us taking them away or not dealing with the situation as a leader should that could reinforce the behaviours. True blinding fear to me, particularly if it is a disproportionate response to the provocation and it persists well after the trigger is removed, is an indication of neurological or some other health problem, and as you said its always best to get a health check.

I wasn't there so don't know the exact situation, but just throwing around a few thoughts. In this instance do you think that the patting or reassuring noises increased the nervousness, or instead just a response to your body language? What if you had started giving him heaps of treats at the same time as bending over, would his attitude have changed, would he think that you where afraid but happy? When Coda was at the stairs do you think that he reacted more because of your first response or just that he was at a point in his life of being uncertain or not confident of new/unknown things (he reacted in a nervous way in the first instance before your response)? Theoretically, if there were issues of leadership with Coda (ie you weren't considered leader in his eyes) do you think he would be looking to you for leadership or just looking out for himself rather than worrying abour your body language? Isn't bending over a dog a "dominating" posture, could Coda have felt nervous about the situation but also being dominated by you causing further nerves? I think there can be a lot of assumptions made about what a dog thinks and associates rather than what is just happening. Rom - post away. I want to hear everything anyone has to say. Don't feel that you have to wait for pro's. I have so many views that conflict with a lot of people, but you don't learn whether you believe your views are more correct, less correct, or should be slightly adjusted unless someone discusses them with you.

Absolutely Vickie, leadership plays a very important role in working through situations (as long as it is a natural leadership, not a forced/physical leadership). Its all about free choice in my opinion but controlling the situation so that choice goes in the direction you want. Need to be careful that not reacting to that fear is due to leadership alone - eg what happens in the absence of the leader further down the track. The dog needs to be given tools or new associations to be able to deal with situations or not feel they are in a situation at all.

Hi all, i'm putting forward several questions out there more for the experienced trainers, but happy to hear from anyone with personal experiences. Following each question is either some of my thoughts or further theory of the question asked or examples in regards to a dogs fear (eg. strangers, but could be any type of training situation, not just fearful). 1: Which type of learning theory is more efficient and gives a stronger result a- classical condidtioning eg. on appearance of a stranger treats are fed by owner, when stranger leaves treats stop - the dog has a passive role b- operant conditioning eg. when dog chooses to move towards stranger they are rewarded - possibly use target stick, etc to lure towards stranger 2: Are the following true or actually misconceptions a- praise and petting reinforce fear or fearful behaviours Why would doing something nice cause them to become more afraid? Isn't true fear not an active behaviour (eg choosing to do it), but rather an automatic response. Why is it ok to do classical conditioning in fearful situation eg rewarding, but not ok to praise/pet (which for most dogs is less rewarding than food, toy etc)? eg shaking/whimper on appearance of trigger - praise/pet to stop reaction - does this cause shake/whimper to occur in different situations or for it to become stronger in the next situation? is the dog thinking if i cry and shake/harder this time when i'm afraid i'm more likely to get a pat. b- punishment is contraindicated (eg increases fear, or hides the reactions) Is the association the dog is creating being paired with his reaction or with the trigger. Are we changing the emotional state in the right direction? Can punishment be used eg. if dog reacts to trigger then something good gets taken away ie owner, but dog must stay in presence of trigger. 3: Do the following techniques for either classical conditioning (a) or operant conditioning (b), have the down sides of proceeding comments. a- Positive conditioned emotional response - potentially hardest to get right, due to timing and being persistant (need to always provide reward on appearance of trigger) - can often be harder to control the trigger eg if red bus is trigger it is not that controllable. b- Luring - false readings if the lure is so much more enticing than what the fear issue is, causing dog to not notice the fearful thing - association is not created Cajoling/happy talk - may mask fearful symptoms if dog is extremely social or attached (similar to above) eg if afraid of stairs, will bolt up to get to someone, but won't go near of own choice. Counter-commanding - have a requirement for this command to deal with situation - does not necessarily learn to deal directly with situation (needs to be done as trigger appears, or as a response to stopping reaction, not as a response to starting reaction) 4: Working dogs in regards to behavioural thresholds - should we be working above or below thresholds, in what situations and what are thresholds eg which is above the threshold - stare, growling, lunging, exploding. If working above threshold (because very likely to happen in the real world with the dog and owner and they need to know how to deal with situation) do we try to get something positive out of it whilst still in the situation, or just move away and regroup/retry. I would like to hear some of peoples opinions/thoughts, experiences, etc. I personally believe that each situation must be dealt with differently (with an individual program that will often change, particularly as you progress through the fear). I feel that if the dog can take an active role (operant conditioning) then you are likely to get a stronger result, because the dog has "chosen" to make that positive response . There are however the potential draw backs as mentioned which can make it harder to work the problem and have the owners work the problem - eg masking the problem. Talk away Tim

As mel said give her time to settle in and also consider a vet check if not already done. All this being fine you can transfer some of that drive for the tug across to the food - have the tug available (eg on a chair where she can see it) but offer some food instead as a reward (only at this stage when you know she is hungry), if she refuses, create some distance from the tug until the food is taken. The moment she does, race back to the tug and have a game with it. With many repetitions of this you will get a transfer of value across to the food (and you won't need to go so far from the tug, or have it there at all in the end).

Not quite, Putting the digging on cue and hiding treats in the pit are 2 separate things. The hiding of the treats in the pit will increase the desire to dig in the pit rather than elsewhere, putting the behaviour on cue will increase the potential that digging will only occur when your there and ask for it. to put on cue burying a treat will help get them to offer the behaviour initially, but you want to reward them after marking what behaviour you want ('yes' or a clicker when they start digging). You should then be able to get them offering to dig in the pit (even if the treat is not there) at a high rate (shaping to this level). At this point then add the cue that you want to use for the behaviour, eg 'dig', before the behaviour occurs (sometimes it helps to dig a little yourself after saying dig to prompt them to do it) but once they are reliably responding to your cue you only reward the digging when you ask for it, not if it is just offered (this is what gives you the control). With general hiding of treats in pit to encourage at that location, I wouldn't worry about using the TOT technique (unless your trying to improve leadership issues) with the treats in the pit as you want it to be something that they are happy to do without you there (assuming the OH doesn't do to much work with dogs, but might be happy to bury a stuffed kong as part of the feeding routine) - I have my guy watching from inside while I hide the treats then he gets let out to search for them as I leave home (i just lie them on the surface initialy till they realise that searching in the pit often means treats). Hope this helps more