NaturallyWild

Bach Flowers They can't do anywrong, and if the right situation needs that specific remedy then they can do wonders - be persistent though, it can sometimes take a while to start working.

About 30% veggies or almost 1/3 of the meal.

Start with very small amounts of ACV with other stuff that is more stinky/yummy, then slowly build up amounts.

VAN stuff is very good, but best to avoid for now if there is potentially a grain issue. Easiest way to do the veggies is buy a whole heap at once and then put them through the blender or juicer so they are very finely chopped/pulped. Seperate the veggies mix into small containers (i use ones that fit 2-3 days worth in) and put them in the freezer to store and have one in the fridge 1-2days before feeding so can thaw out. When you have one days worth left in a container get the next container out to thaw into the fridge. Might take a couple of hours work one evening, but you will have a heap to last for several weeks (depending on how much room you have in your freezer) - i have a stand alone freezer in the garage which takes me almost a full day mixing food to freeze, but will last me a few months. Think about adding some organ meat as well (liver, heart, kidney, tripe/giblets) - definitely want this to be from a good source (eg organic) so you don't feed chemical that have built up in them. Only about 10-15% of meal. Other things to look at would be the chemicals you use around the house for cleaning, things that he does that aggrevates it not long after (eg running through grass), whether he is emotionally stressed, etc. Be careful about adding yogurt unless it is a good quality one without additives (eg plain yalna), otherwise adding pro and prebiotics would be a good idea.

From the many people i have spoken too, all speak well of Robert McDowell and consider him as one of australia's best animal herbalists. The tough thing with allergy problems is that there are so many different things that could be causing the problem: toxicities from chemicals given (eg wormers etc), vaccination problems, emotional/behaviour causes, food allergies to specific foods/protien types, illnesses/diseases, contact allergies (eg grasses/plants, chemicals in cleaners, etc) or a combination of these. You and you vet are right that long term use of cortisone will not be good for the problem as it will only suppress it and potentially make it worse or create other issues (it can be useful sometimes to provide temporary relief as the problem is dealt with). Adding fish oil as mentioned can help reduce the inflammatory responses in the body (preferably a type that has vit E to prevent oil going rancid). There are many other things worth adding as well such as vit C, A, E, etc. Homeopathy might be a path worth trying to deal with the true cause of the problem. There are also other natural products that can provide relief for the itching such as aloe vera, emu oil, specific herbal teas, etc. Even if there are sensitivities to things like food, fleas, grasses etc, often it is not the true cause of the problem, just a sensitivity caused by some other issue. Best of luck

Cooking and then mushing will not be a problem - you will obviously loose some nutrition but not all. Remember they can get by without the "complete nutrition" in every single meal, it doesn't need to be like the commercial dog food. If you get stuck not being able to make the veggies edible by processing or juicing then just feed raw meaty bones, organ meat and other foods like fruit, eggs etc.

I think that regardless of what training is obtained (NDTF, Delta, or others) there are going to be some trainers that do still not have the skills and knowledge to know how to utilise an e-collar and properly assess a dog (just as you get suspect people in other areas eg doctors etc), but it is a much better indication that they will be able to provide the skills and knowledge required.

Denis - Erny and JJ have basically answered my response to your questions and in the following summary of the Schalke lecture i will put a few questions that will further support this. The conference was the APDT conference held in Kansas City Missouri USA Sept 13-17 2006 (the place was like a ghost town ) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary of lecture and notes from Ester Schalke - "Stress sypmtoms caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday life situations" Initially summarised previous studies and gave questions/problems from studies that needed to be answered 1: Feddersen-Petersen (2000) - 12 dogs varying age/breed/sex/origin/history/training - tested with stopping hunting behaviour, no control group. Observations only taken as gauge to stress. Conclusion of author was results point to considerable amount of suffering 2: Schilder & van der Borg (2004) - 63 dogs varying age/breed/sex/origin/history/training(some with history of e-collars which was utilised in study), control group involved, tested in various training routines (mainly schutzhund) - Observations only taken as gauge to stress. Conclusion of author was dogs trained with electric shocks are more stressed and connect handlers with being shocked. 3: Christiansen et al (2001) - 114 dogs (once again differing breed etc) - tested to stop chasing/attaching sheep (individual or flock) and retested 2yrs later - observations of behavioural effects gauged by owners. Conclusion of author was that it was an efficient method of reducing probability of a dog chasing lifestock and the owners observed no negative side effects. Christiansen observed dogs being more alert 2yrs later. Schalke questions/problems: Issues in studies due to so much variation in the dogs (breed/age/training history etc) as well as potentially low testing numbers. Critical of owners being capable of observing the behaviour correctly (ie not seeing all stress factors). Does these studies compare to real life situations? No physiological data to prove. Does stress vary according to situation? Is there stress when returning to same location of collar use? Individual reactions will vary strongly depending on previous experiences. Schalke study: 14 Beagles reared in same controlled environment Measured saliva cortisol and heart rate Testing to avoid prey, recall, and random use of collar Adaptation period used to provide interest in training area, rabbit (prey), procedures (sampling saliva and heart rate) prior to using collar. Cortisol levels tested in various levels: base, 2 preliminary tests (simple hunt, impeded hunt), main experiment, post test (4 weeks after) They also initially tested cortisol after waiting 50min prior to being able to hunt, which caused higher levels than when hunting. This caused them to alter protocol to sampling cortisol. Shocks were given at the highest level on the collar (Teletakt micro 3000 - current, voltage and duration of impulse were measured using resistances between 500w and 2.2kW to simulate the skin resistance. Testing was terminated when: correct response was given, significant stress was shown, or after 3rd application. Main test involved 3 types: A - Aversion group: shock applied the moment they touched the prey. -an association was easily formed where avoidance occured - resulted in decreased heart rate - showed the lowest increase in cortisol which did not change in the post test (4 weeks later) H - Recall group: shock applied when no response to recall cue ("here") (*recall was not trained with any form of distraction prior to shock being used on recall to chasing rabbit) - decreased heart rate - increased cortisol up to 160% which increased further to 207% post test (4 weeks later) - base levels were however also higher R - Random group: unpredictable application of shock, so association could not be applied - increased heart rate - increased cortisol 327% which increased further to 586% post test Conclusions Group H & R which mimicked bad owner timing & insufficient training, the cortisol levels rose considerably, clearly indicting stress. The cortsol levels for group A was actualy less than levels when hunting impeded (stress is reduced if the punishing stimulus to a certain behaviour or object is associated). Heart rate increased in R group, but decreased in A & R groups. General use of shock collars is not consistent with animal welfare -should not be used by pet owners -should only be used by dog trainers if proven theoretical and practical qualifications and used in specific situations. Stated that in Germany, the laws regarding collars are being/going to be changed so need qualification to use collars based on this study. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of my issues with study and conclusions The fact that higher cortisol levels are achieved in impeded hunt than with direct association of shock - would have thought this be a point to talk about - eg that fact that frustration causes more stress than a well timed positive punishment association. To me this opens up a huge debate in regards to "positive" training eg clicker training, as there is far too many people that cause frustration and do not teach how to get past being frustrated (they don't know how to change their rate of reinforcement, criteria, timing, etc), yet it is claimed to be dog friendly technique. The issue with dog training is that regardless of the tools or techniques being used there is a need for skilled teachers to show the owners how to train correctly, otherwise negative results to the dog are highly possibly. Few people i believe have the skills to get techniques and skills correct when given an information pamphlet/book or basic video, it really takes hands on work and teaching to get them to "perfect" the techniques. If this wasn't so then there would not be so many "dog trainers" around these days, the business is booming, which clearly shows a need for them. The fact that the H group showed a lowered heart rate but increased cortisol level was explained insufficiently. The fact that cortisol was increased was simply the direct explination of stress, not heart rate. The R group seemed to me to be not a completely realistic situation, as totally random applications are not as likely as applications that were poorly timed, giving some oppertunity for an association (just a much harder oppertunity). No details given in regards to signs of stress that were taken to terminate experiments. Her concluding statement to me seems to far too broad in how it is directed (shock collars are not consistent with animal welfare). While this may be true in regards to specific situations such as poorly timed use of collar along with poor training, it is definitely not proven (infact probably disproves it) in situations where the tool is used correctly. Should not a statement about impeding dogs from doing what they want be considered not consistent with animal welfare considereing the increased in cortisol levels. I would like to see further studies examining both behavioural reactions as well as physiological and to include experimentation that involves "positive" training that causes frustration, but also e-collar training that involves low level stimulation techniques. How has this become so (according to who, and how measured, it seems like an extremely large sweeping statement to make - just like saying ecollar are not consitent with animal welfare)?

No, i was at the APDT conference in Sept. I do agree that e-collars should be restricted unless suitable knowledge and training/supervision is obtained and shouldn't be available to anyone to buy without this (along with many other pieces of equipment). But not the total outlaw of the device.

I was at that conference and recall many people i talked to having issues with the research and her conclusions. I will have to review the notes and audio i have from the presentation and post back a reply. My thoughts were that she (Schalke) was very much against e-collars - someone said she had used this research to outlaw e-collars somewhere in Europe???). Will post back in the next few days with a summary.

This is still something that is not fully confirmed through studies, but i believe there are at least 2 out there that i will try and track down. Like Erny mentioned, operant conditioning will involve classical conditioning in some way but is much more complex and it involves (if correctly trained) a "choice point", where there is a dopamine release when there is a free choice that results in something reinforcing and makes the result even more rewarding. Need to check on the biochemical responses for purely classical conditioning. I would potentially contest (but not confirm which is better) what was said in regards to classical not having as long a retention compared to operant. Variable reinforcement (or whatever schedule) is the extended part of the training/learning and can apply to both classical and operant after the initial association or learning has occured. Operant conditioning is the action or behaviour that needs to occur to result in the reinforcer occuring (is the same thing as instrumental learning). Extinction will occur with both if you stop the reinforcement - the question is which will stop quicker, and does this change if there has been a smaller or larger amount of reinforcement prior to stopping the reinforcement.

Hey Lablover, I'm not sure who is the best in Aus but there are plenty of sites on the net covering much of the theory that is required to understand to improve the teaching methods that may be used with a clicker. One of the most well known trainers from the states is Bob (and Marion) Bailey (see links http://www.k9events.com/clicker_Bob_Bailey.htm), he has a DVD i'm contemplating buying as some stage. He is more about utilising the theories of learning rather than requiring the use of an instrument but will use them if required. The other index for clicker training is http://www.k9events.com/clickerIndex.htm. Others known for making "clicker training" well known are Karen Pryor http://www.clickertraining.com/ who has started clicker expo and included a great number of experts from different fields eg Ken Ramirez, Steve White, etc. Another site is http://www.clickersolutions.com/. Hard to say who would be the best because its more about giving you the skills to understand such as timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement, placement of reinforcement, modifying your environment, etc, rather than someone who is the best at training dogs themselves. Sometimes you don't get both (trainer and teacher) rather one or the other. The others are right though - the states have an ENOURMOUS amount of trainers that have skills coming from a wide variety of professions. I think i would probably try and attend the clicker expo next time i'm over there rather than the pet dog trainers conference (which included many of those involved in the clicker expo). I might be able to lend you some audio from those workshops to give you an indication of what they might teach you. I would be interested in hearing recommendations of others within Aus.

Parsley and many other green grasses (wheat, barley, etc) blended/juiced and added to the meal (preferably other raw ingredients) regularly does a great job of keeping the breath nice and fresh as well as having other benefits.

Congrats, You will have to post some pics of it in use, once its up and running.

If you take the requirements back to basics for what the dog has to do to "earn" the sleeve. You don't change its value for the sleeve - you "own" it and the dog has to do what you want to earn it. Many people will allow mistakes by the dog, but still reward, instead of taking steps back in the process (or even starting from scratch). The idea is the same concept as the TOT, where the dog chooses to look at you to get its food. This concept can be used in many different ways. This is where i mean that the dog has to give you its mind.

Yes - this was the case for one or two of the dogs who weren't feeling the correction because they were so worked up (not some others though). I still think you need to get the dogs mind back with the handler rather than just reducing the drive. I also believe that many of the problems occur because they do too much too soon.

This was me seeing him work other peoples dogs at a seminar when i was over in the USA. Dogs that have been taught without his methods do not need to have corrections, people are just not prepared to go back to scratch to teach what they want to learn.

Unfortunately the corrections were not in a "motivating" manner at all. This was when he was working other peoples dogs to fix problems. They were full arm length, hard yanks with a pinch collar - aimed at suppressing the motivation to going for the arm. Didn't see any corrections when he worked his own dogs. I believe if your going to use corrections then you need them to provide a learning situation - well the dogs just kept doing the same thing. My suggestion to someone else there was to take a step back in what was being asked of the dog. Teach the dog that more control will get you what you want ie the arm guard. You do see a little correction in the dvds. I find i learn a lot with just watching other people work - didn't take anything away on that occasion. Still think the ideas in his dvds are very good though.

If you don't want it, i might be interested (even though i'm in melbourne). I'm looking at setting up hydrotherapy further down the track - but if i can get something cheap enough i would jump in now. $5000 (or under) sounds a very good price. Remember, would there be any setup/installation costs to think about? I would seriously think about insurance if your hiring to others - never know what can happen. Good luck

I've seen his "the game" dvd. Thought they were quite good. I've also seen him work other people with their dogs - very different to what you see in the dvd's (ie not all positive - a lot of harsh corrections). His dog was unbelieveably fantastic though. All the jumping about, i believe, is so the dog only cues off his voice and not from some associated movement they pick up, also as a form of distraction training. Funny sight though.

If IBD is suspected i would defintely be looking down the lines of pre and probiotics and other herbs &/or homeopathics to deal with why there is a problem with the digestive system rather than just avoiding the foods that cause a problem. Absolutely avoid the stuff that causes issues now, but i would be aiming to be able to bring them slowly back in after strengthening the system first. Sometimes the cause can be related to immunisations, worming and other medications, so it can be difficult task. I've always been able to find turkey frames etc at various butchers, particularly those that deal with chicken - just ask around, if they don't have it, do they know someone who does. Very different matter if your looking for organic though. Can you ask the supermarket where they get their turkey from as you are after the frames.

There a few things to think about. Firstly, can you do anything to help strenthen the digestive system (pre and probiotics) and other organs that may be reacting to some component in the food. Consult your vet (preferably holistic) or animal naturapath to discuss working on this issue first. You mention that he can't have chicken, beef, or lamb (why not?), have you tried other things like whole fish, whole hard vegies (eg carrot), you mention turkey (try turkey frames). Some of the dry dog foods have been designed to clean teeth a little bit, but nothing works as good as raw bones. There are also various items that are designed to help clean the teeth if chewed - eg Kong has one with grooves in it that you could smear some food into cracks and inside it to promote chewing of it. Otherwise if your unable to find something that works there are many more vet now that will do dental work. Try what others have said first about doing it yourself.

Good to know - could you direct me to the info confirming the lower molecular weight and/or the studies. PM if you wish I think Joint Guard is currently the most comprehensive joint supplement we have available - i'm hoping to get better into Aus (tough task though). A problem with a lot of joint supplements out there is that they add various "fad" components that although found naturally occuring in the joint, cannot be utilised for various reasons when taken orally.

If there are signals that you know are causing the wrong response, deliberately work with those signals to change the meaning to what you want. eg with the turning towards your dog which causes lagging. to change this i would look at repeating that signal with a reward being made available closer up and beside you. If it is heeling that you want that is not dependant on the position of your shoulders then think about what cue you do want your dog to respond to - eg direction of feet, angle of hips etc and reward for response to those (only give those cues). Dogs will very simply give a response to a situation based on the "picture" they see and the rewards they receive (dependant on timing, location, frequency and level of reward). Think about upping the frequency of rewarding that you are giving. If you are still not getting the response that you want, think about splitting the behaviours you are giving to being simpler and then building up from there.

One of the biggest things i learnt early on was that many people say that their dog "knows" what they should be doing and may justify using corrections because they are "proofing" their dog. The first thing i say to these people is can you lie down on you stomach or can you stand 1cm from someone elses face and ask you dog to still do what you ask. To me it is very very unlikely that it will occur and means that more training is still needed. This is hard to explain but to me training (during the "teaching" phase) should involve being consistent with the one cue (which needs to be very obvious) that you want the dog to respond to, but changing up all the other aspects as soon as possible. Many dogs can't tolerate much change in body language initially so small amount are initially included but once they get the idea that eg "sit means sit" and that is the only way to get a reward then you can do anything and everything eg stand on head, run away, hide behind tree and you still want to get what you have asked - to me this is proofing and still doesn't involve "corrections" but a no reward marker. At this point i would also consider simplifying the intial cue that was used (or variations to the cue) eg simpler hand signals or changes in voice.