Working_Setters

Cordelia - Thanks for posting your alterative view on this complex subject. I grapple with this issue and am still formulating my opinions. For me the one factor driving me to support desexing of all dogs (male and female) in pet homes is the epidemic of unwanted dogs, this is a terrible problem that we must solve. Whilst I don't think desexing of all pet home dogs is the ideal solution, it is obvious that once desexed, these animals can no longer further increase the number of unwanted dogs. However there are some points raised in your post that I'd like to respond to: Nope. Inappropriate behaviour in our society. There is considerable debate regarding the pros and cons of tail docking, surely many of the anti docking arguments could also be applied to castration? The castration of all males just because some of them may develop aggression problems is surely no different to TDing all pups because some of them may injury tails latter in life. Also there is the suggestion amongst anti TDers that if people want a dog without a tail, they should breed it that way. Again surely the same argument applies here, if people want a non-aggressive male then they should breed them that way. In short there are IMO striking similarities between operating on a dog to prevent possible future physical problems (tail damage) and operating on a dog to prevent possible future behavioural problems (aggression). I disagree that 2cm isn’t a significant amount, I believe it is especially in small-medium breeds. If the dog is already at the upper limit of the standard, then an extra 2cm does in fact make him overly tall. Again I have to disagree, if you take a statistically appropriate sample size and find a statistically significant difference, then you can "prove" it. Same way you prove smoking causes lung cancer, get a bunch of folks who smoke and a bunch who do not. If the smoking group consistently get more lung cancer - you can prove it. Excellent point - anybody know if this research has been done? Would be very interesting to know the results. Only because owners continue to feed the same amount of food/calories post orchidectomy. If they cut down the amount of food/calories given after desexing then their dog wouldn't suddenly get sluggish and stack on the kilos Here you and the original author seem to be saying the same thing? Desexing does make the dog more susceptible to weight can and without decreasing food and/or increasing exercise then dog is very likely to become over weight. It's not that all will gain weight, but without decreased food and increased exercise, they are likely to. I agree that diet and exercise are important factors affecting muscle tone, but so to are hormones (testosterone). No matter how much a female athlete eats and exercises, she wont have the same muscles as a male athlete due to testosterone differences.Seems to me that the only reason for getting males castrated is to help with the unwanted puppy problem, but it does seem to me that the male dogs are paying a high price. Unlike bitches that may enjoy better health as a result of desexing, males seem very like to suffer poorer health as a result of desexing. Appropriate housing of male dogs would be equally effective in reducing unwanted pups, without any of the negative effects of castration.

Pronounce as "tighter", as in does that belt need to be tighter to stop pants falling down. LOL

And this goes back to my original post - I referred to "those dogs whose owners can manage them." Managing them includes having escapeproof housing! Dogs are not only drawn out by intact bitches - there are many reasons dogs will stray - just ask all the desexed houdinis! (And I know lots of those :rolleyes: ) Agreed

Morgan, Very interesting article - thanks for posting. Seems there are some very real health benefits in not castrating. I agree with you regarding the right of the owner to choose the status of their dogs, intact vs desexed. Desexing is an alteration of convenience for people that are too lazy or too ignorant to house their dogs/bitches correctly. The problem I see here is that intact dogs will roam, drawn by intact bitches, out of their yard and become a public nuisance, get hit by a car etc. Dogs/Bitches no matter if they’re intact/desexed need to be properly confined - end of story. In view of your vocal opposition to tail docking for aesthetics, I find this comment truly incredible!!

Can anybody tell me if Brisbane has a good meat market, something like the Victoria market in Melbourne - where one can get wonderful meat and RMBs for great prices? TIA

LM - Why no pork? Just curious as there was a recent thread on the raw feed list where many folk posted as to the virtues of pork.

Thanks to all who contributed - this is the most informative thread I've read on DOL for quite awhile

Thanks for the input folks. One thing that surprised me in Lonsdale's book was the advice to stay away from "recreational bone", large beef marrow bones, I'd always assumed these were just the ticket for cleaning teeth, but Lonsdale claims "Not only do hard indigestible bones fail to clean teeth; oftentimes they break teeth and are best avoided". As I say this was news to me, I figured all the gnawing on large bones was great for cleaning teeth. So how hard/chewy does a bone need to be to contribute to teeth cleaning? What about chicken frames or lamb brisket bones, are they good teeth cleaners?

I've not owned a Cocker, but have had Springer and I've known and trained with a bunch of spaniels. The only time these dogs smelled is (a) the rolled in something or (b) they had a yeast infection in their ears. Spaniel ears are very prone to yeast infections, so stick your nose in the ear and have a whiff, it's infected you'll know!! If it's not (a) or (b) then there is something funny going on. I almost never bath my dogs (they just wash themselves when swimming in the dam/river) and they come into the house every evening, I have a sensitive nose and believe me I'd know if any of them stank (the occasional fart not withstanding :D ) Believe I'd watch where he goes and what he does when you let him outside. I'd also do as LM suggests and try switching food, not saying I've anything against Hills, it's just I'd try Euk and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks for the info guys - keep it coming. I currently feed one chicken frame per dog in the mornings and a bit over a cup of Euk in the evenings. RMB 2-4 days per week. My dogs are very active and coats look good, so I can't complain about how they perform on this diet. It just seems so "unnatural" to feed a dog grain based kibble. I want to switch the family over to an organic, home grown/harvested, diet. Since I hunt I get RMB cheap. Guess I was just brainwashed, but somehow I never considered 80% RMB plus 20% other (offal, organs, fruit & vegies) to be a complete diet. Looking back it seems like a foolish notion, I mean I spend a lot of time outdoors and I know what foxes and dingos eat.

As I've posted elsewhere just finished reading "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale (author of Raw Meaty Bones). The book made a lot of sense to me and I'm thinking of giving it a go with my dogs. Lonsdale believes dogs should be feed around 78-80% RMB and 20-22% other, which includes fruit, veg etc. Other BARF programs suggest considerably more fruit and veg, with less meat. Having dressed out my share of animals, I'm inclinded to agree with Lonsdale. Seems to me a dog eating a rabbit for example would get around 80% RMB and 20% other, which would include some partially digested vegetation in the rabbit's gut. I also found myself agreeing with Lonsdale about the benefits of feeding entire carcasses or large chunks of meat and bone, rather than all ground up which seems to be popular. Seems to me there are considerable benefits in terms of the dog’s teeth, gums and overall heath in having a dog work for its food rather than scoffing down a ground up mush. Would be very interested to hear from others that have made the transition from kibble to RMB/BARF. Why did you change, what (if any) problems did you encounter and would you ever go back to kibble? Would also be very interested in hear thoughts and opinions as to the merits of Lonsdale’s RMB diet Vs other BARF programs.

1 bag of Euk lasts my 2 a month, plus chicken frame every morning and regular RMB - so we're talking $16-$20 per week for each dog. Edited to add I have medium sized dogs, active Irish Setters

Cavalier - congratulations on the nearing culmination of years of hard study, I occasionally wish I'd chosen vet science over medical research. If you've the time some day might I respectively suggest you read "Blood Ties" by Ted Kerasote. Kerasote argues (and I agree) there is no such thing as human life without animal death. With the price paid by the ecosystem for fossil fuel extraction, combined with land clearing, pesticides use, and modern harvesting techniques (cutting down crops in which animals are feeding and nesting) mean that crops grown on an industrial scale are far from "blood free". Vegetarians organically growing their own food probably do the least harm to the environment, but vegetarians buying goods shipped in do more harm than those that hunting animals for food locally because of the fossil fuel costs. Anyhow, I’m a long way off topic, so I’ll shut up now. It is an interesting book if you ever get the chance http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/bldties.htm http://www.kerasote.com/books.html#bloodties

Amhailte - Nice Post, agree with you 100%. Philosophical twins, on this issue at least!!

Thanks espinay2, Searching the online yellowpages using "Poultry--Retail", I found there are about 20 Lenard's stores in Brisbane. Will call a few of the closer ones and get some prices. Now I'm going to need to invest in a bigger freezer

There have been some good prices mentioned in this thread, I've been paying way more for my chicken carcasses. Wondering what other people in Brisbane have found - where is the cheapest place for chicken carcasses in this town? Also a couple of people have mentioned "Lennards", I'm not familiar with them, is it a store or a brand? Anybody know if it's available in Brisbane? (I looked in whitepages online, but didn't find anything) TIA

Hi Miranda, Many thanks for your advice and suggestions. Any suggestions as to the best brand to buy? TIA

Just back from a training event, out of a dozen dogs, my bitch was rated #1 in the field, not so strong in the retrieving thou. Yep, my dogs swim and generally loll about in the water to cool off. They have a toddlers wadding pool in their run to help keep cool. I'm not wanting to clip body hair, just the fuzzy stuff behind the ears that always gets matted, the front of the chest/throat (again more fuzzy stuff) and between the toes, collects grass seeds which can be FATAL. I would not be above using clippers/scissors to shorten feathering and under body hair if it were collecting too many seeds. I understand many of you are show folk and would find this idea horrific, but to me it's just hair and my primary concern is functionality. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to me true beauty is a brace of setters flowing over the ground with a fast, smooth and athletic ground eating gait, then the intensity and intelligence they show when working birds. Thanks for suggesting Caroline Pearen, I'll get in touch and see if she'll help me.

Miranda, Thanks for the advice, breeder recommended no.10 blade also. I'm hoping to find somebody around Brisbane to show me how to clip, but if I get desperate I'll contact you for those diagrams. No I'd never work my dogs during the summer, snakes and heat are dog killers. I'm constantly worried about snakes, I've seen them in Vic in the middle of winter, just never know when or where they'll turn up. Heat is a lot more predictable, if it's a warm day to humans, keep a very careful eye on any hard working dog. I've just returned to Oz after 4 years in the USA, the opening day of the 2003 South Dakota pheasant season was an unseasonably warm day, over 100 dogs died from heat exhaustion. Heat and hard running dogs is an ugly combination. I'm just wanting to clip my two now to help them through the Brisbane's sub-tropical summer, will clip again prior the season to cut down on grass seeds. The only "work" my dogs get during the summer is long runs on the beach. Pups are from John/Robyn Gaskin in New Zealand, I put the link to their website in a previous message. As it turned out the Gaskin's had two unrelated litters only 2 weeks apart and I took a pup from each litter. The dam of my bitch pup was imported from Ireland and the sire of my dog pup was imported from Sweden, the other parents are kiwi locals. I was in the paddock with Sandy earlier this year, she had a very fast and exciting dog with her that she'd imported from Sweden (I think). Sandy has imported some nice working blood and I'll very interested in using some when it comes time to breed my pups. t-time , thanks for the olive oil tip. I've heard of working Springer people doing the same thing. Quick question, if you olive/veggie oil, do the dogs enjoy the taste and lick it off? Cheers

Hi Poodlefan Thanks for you reply and for your interest in my dogs, I've posted a pic in the photo section under my name "working setters". If you're interested in seeing more working reds, I'd recommend the following site kilsheelan

I have 2 young (10 month) Irish setters. They are working (field) dogs and I'm starting to have a problem with them collecting grass seeds. The breeder clips all her dog twice a year and recommends I do the same, so I'd like to learn the basics of clipping/grooming. I don't need anything too fancy, since I don't show my dogs, just interested in keeping the dogs cool in summer and reducing the amount of grass seed they pick up. The breeder recommended I use a "show clip", (behing the ears, chest and hocks). Can anybody recommend a good dog groomer (Brisbane), that has experience clipping setters and will be happy for me to watch/learn as they do my dogs? Alternatively are there any experienced setter show people out there that would be willing to teach me how to clip my dogs? TIA