Working_Setters

As I’m sure you know Cockers are flushing spaniels that were originally bred to find and flush game before a gun and retrieve game once it was shot. In Oz a Cockers primary quarry is rabbits, they maybe also be used on hare and quail, and for retrieving ducks (in those states which still have a duck/quail season - NSW unfortunately no longer has a season). In order to hunt over a Cocker you will need a shooters licence, a shotgun, a duck/quail licence (if you intend shooting duck/quail, if so you will need to sit a duck ID test) and access to private land where you can find and shoot rabbits/hare/quail and ducks. Field trials are designed to simulate this hunting and dogs are judged on their effectiveness in the field, as well as on obedience etc. In order to train a Cocker for this type of work will need most of the same things as you need for hunting. Obviously basic obedience training can be done in many places from the lounge room to the local footy oval and a certain amount of preparative field work can be done by firing blanks etc, but eventually there will come a time that to progress further in field work, you need to get out there and do the real thing. There are some field trials run for pointing dogs under “non-shooting” conditions, I’m unaware of these types of trials ever being run for spaniels. Basically in Oz, spaniel trials are run on wild rabbits, with competitors both handling their spaniel and shooting game flushed by there dog. There was a recent spaniel trial held on a game preserve, where pheasants were used in place of rabbits. Although open to all breeds of spaniels, only English Springer Spaniels competed. ESS are by far the dominate spaniel breed in field trials in this country. This trial was judged by a good friend of mine, he’s interested in getting a working cocker for his next dog, and intends importing from New Zealand, I would recommend you do the same if you want a dog that has been breed specifically for work. The costs of importation from New Zealand are not high. Retrieving trials are different to field trials. Retrieving trials are designed to test a dog’s retrieving ability (obviously), they do simulate hunting to an extent, but also extend and test many retrieving skills well beyond what one might reasonably expect to encounter in a days hunting over a cocker. Retrieving trials are in many ways more accessible than field trials, b/c there are many more clubs that hold training days, non competitive events for novices etc. As there are many more people competing in retrieving trials, it is far more likely you will find somebody knowledgeable enough to assist you with training in your area. Also for retrieving trials much more of the dog’s training can be done with tennis balls, plastic bumpers and a cap gun, there is less need for live game and there is not the need to find access to hunting land etc. As mentioned above cocker do retrieve, some of them very well, but it is always going to be difficult to beat the retrieving breeds in these types of competitions. Other gundog breeds such as GSPs, Weims, Vizsla, Britt and ESS do compete in these events with a great deal of success, there are several very successful ESS in this country are present. However I do agree with the suggestion that a cockers small size puts them at a disadvantage in these events. Are these the types of activities you have in mind for your cocker? I’m only asking b/c several times you have mentioned the trials your father entered with his GSD, now I don’t know much about German Shepards, but I imagine their trials are very different to cocker (gundog) field and retrieving trials?? Lastly, to be very clear about what I did and didn’t say, I did NOT say there are no cockers in this country with working ability. There are, and obviously the level of that working ability/desire/instinct will vary from kennel to kennel and bloodline to bloodline, depending on the breeder’s breeding plan. However, there are not, AFAIK, any “working cockers” in this country, that is dogs who for generation after generation have been breed primarily working ability/desire/instinct. That is very different to saying that cockers breed primarily for other objectives (such as the show ring) don’t retain a certain amount of their working traits. As I’m am primarily (solely) interested in field work, if I was going to get a cocker, I would follow my friends lead and import a dog from 100% working lines. I believe these dogs would also excel in agility, but would have limited success in the show ring. Which is why in my original post I suggested the need to more clearly focus your primary area of interest. HTH

If you're suggesting that rescuing pugs and pug crosses means you don't give a "tinkers cuss" about a dog's breed, then....................... ;) ;)

What an interesting comment, given that the rescue group you choose to promote, Pug Rescue Sydney, clearly gives a great deal more than a "tinkers cuss" about a dog's breeding when determining if that dog's life is worth saving. This from the opening page of Pug Rescue Sydney's website: Pug Rescue Sydney is devoted to the Pug breed and understands and appreciates their unique nature. It sure sounds to me like they care about breeding a great deal.

Morgan - thanks for your continuing efforts to educate many people on this board to the numerous considerations surrounding desexing. I find your comments articulate, intelligent, courteous and well researched. Personally I find them both enjoyable and educational. Your patience and restraint in the face of numerous frustrating and provocative posts is both commendable and frankly amazing. I rate you as one of the most experienced, knowledgeable, thoughtful and therefore valuable contributors on DOL. Keep up the good work.

You "can't imagine"? :p Have you looked at ANY of the scientific studies posted here over the last year on desexing? Or posts from members who have had bitches with lifelong health problems and constant medication because of desexing? Or even those bitches that died as a result of being desexed? Morgan..........they are just that......'scientific studies' and not proven facts. Any number of people can do scientific studies and spout any number of half baked theories without it being proven. I well understand 'scientific research' having had a background in science. My own daughter's Paediatric Neurologist tells me her Epilepsy is NOT hormone related because there is no 'PROVEN" correllation between Epilepsy and hormones.....yet agrees that the onset and progression of her Epilepsy is indeed indicative of being related to hormone activity. My point.....unless it is proven every scientific study is theory. Bitches and puppies die during whelping, particularly young bitches who have a litter after their first season. Male dogs can get out when there is an undesexed female in season in the vicinity and get killed on roads. Sorry morgan.......your theories don't stand up.....NOT desexing is irresponsible. Having been a medical researcher for 15 years, I have an extensive scientific background, and can tell you, strictly speaking, the number one rule of scienctific research is "you can never prove a hypothesis and must always be willing to discard or amend any "fact" in the light of new evidence". There can and are very high degrees of correlation and certainty, but that's very different to a proven fact. IMO it's the people that don't house their dogs properly that are being irresponsible. That male dogs can get out b/c there is a bitch in heat in the vicinity means just one thing, "the male dog could get out" and was therefore inapproprately housed. Likely it could have also got out to chase a cat, and that would mean the same thing, inapproprately housed. If people are so irresponsible as to fail to house their dogs properly, then I really have to question if they should own a dog at all.

Field, agility, obedience, showing, that's a lot to achieve with one dog, reaching the top of any one of those is a lot of work, trying to compete in all four is quite an undertaking. It is the opinion of many people (including myself) that there is a huge split between field bred and show bred cockers. There are no field bred cockers in Oz, there are a few in NZ. If you are serious about field work, there are several kennels that produce excellent field bred springer spaniels, but AFAIK none of these dogs would be competitive in the show ring - there is quite a split b/t field and show in springers also. I think you need to decide which event, field, agility, obedience or showing will be your #1 interest, then choose a breeder that specialises in producing this kind of dog. I know many breeders will tell you they produce dogs for show and field, in which case I'd suggest you ask them how many field/retrieving trials their dogs have won recently. (In the case of cockers I can tell you there have been none winning in either field or retrieving trials recently). Many show people do not understand the requirements for a top field dog, they think that any pup that won't quite cut it in the show ring will be an excellent field dog, b/c the pup's sire/dam just "loves to chase duck/pigeons". Frankly this is crap. I've had a number of lengthy (and heated) conversations on this topic in the past, if you're interested to read them use the advanced search feature to find my posts, with the key word "cocker" or “spaniel”. If after you've read these threads you have additional questions, I'd be happy to help. If you decide your #1 passion is show/agility/obedience then I’m not the person to talk to, my passion is field work.

Obviously there would be 'for' and 'against' for performing a second operation and so I guess this owuld mean weighing up the pros and cons and incidence of developing mammary cancer and pyometra. I agree, below is part of a post I wrote on a different thread last week. I don't understand why this option is not offered. I'm not a vet, so can't speak about the difficulty of performing these operations on dogs, but I do know that ferrets are regularly vasectomised (female ferrets, once coming into season remain dangeriously swollen until mated, vasectomised males are used when no kits (baby ferrets) are wanted), so surely if vasectomises are performed on ferrets, they should/could be perfromed on dogs Sometime last week WS wrote:

I agree with those that have recommended dog training school - it will help both you and your dog understand each other better, you'll meet lots of other people having the same problems and very experienced dog trainers that will show you how to solve them. Crating is great and I recommend it highly. Dogs are safe, secure and you have total control over what they chew etc. I've crated multiple dogs for past 10 years, it really works. You have to get the dog up off the concrete and the sling beds that have been recommended are the best/cheapest way of doing so. Failing that use a raised timber platform, they can be made very cheaply (building sites will often discard everything you need) and are truly indestructible. It's not as comfortable as the sling bed, but its way better than the concrete. One way to build the raised platform is to start with a forklift pellet, and fill the gaps on the top of the pellet with some additional boards.

What is LSA? Do you cook the "slop"? If so, could you give info on how please? Washed unpeeled fruit & veg into pot, some water and simmer? TIA Nope, slop is raw just like everything else. I pulverise it by juicing the fruit/veg pieces, and mix the pulp with about 1/2 the juice. LSA = linseed and almond meal or includes sunflower meal in some cases. HTH. many thanks

You guys are way cleaner than me, I almost never bath my dogs. When they need a "bath" I take a tennis ball to the river/dam and keep the dog fetching it til they come out clean. Our dogs cetainly dont smell bad, but the dont smell perfumed either Our dogs come inside every night and if there was any smell my wife would let me know about it!! I have working setters (short coats than show setters) and pretty much consider them a "wash and wear" breed, no fancy grooming here, just a careful check for grass seeds.

What is LSA? Do you cook the "slop"? If so, could you give info on how please? Washed unpeeled fruit & veg into pot, some water and simmer? TIA

I'd be interested to know who created this marking scheme and how much they know about dog foods? I would question a number of points in this rating system. For example: What's the problem with dogs eating "by product", yep it's the organs, guts, feathers/fur, etc all the stuff they'd eat on a natural diet. Ditto for the "non-specific" animal source And more or less ditto for the non-specific grain source What's the problem with dogs eating animal fat other than fish oil? I expect/demand my dog food to contain animal fat, then I supplement with fatty off cuts and bones of beef/lamb etc. IMO this isn't just wrong - it's nuts!! I have a problem with adding too many points for organic ingredients, I'd much rather a dog food high in non-organic meat than one with a tiny amount of organic meat. Adding points for endorsements doesn't do much for me. Doesn't Dr. Harry or some such endorse pal? Endorsements, IMO, basically depend on the size of your advertising budget, not the quality of your product. An interesting scoring plan, but certainly not the "holly grail" of dog food selection, IMNSHO ETA I just found a related thread by KitKat in which many similar concerns were raised regarding the usefulness of this scoring scheme

I don't have a problem with either Animal by products or corn in my dog food. Product A - I don't like the listing of "ground rice, rice flour and rice bran" to me that's just a confusing way of saying RICE, break the rice down into its components, then list them individually so that the meat can be listed as the #1 ingredient. Product B - It's confusing to see real chicken meat listed as the 2nd and the 3rd ingredients? Does this mean the second ingredient could be 'roo, or chicken, or beef or lamb, but the 3rd ingredient is always chicken?? I would choose B, b/c my dogs are very active and need the higher protein and fat. 3. Do you choose your dog food based on something else? Yes, reputation and past performance. I had a problem with one of my dogs, vet said try Euk. I did it was great, that was 10 years ago and have fed Euk ever since. Recently tried a cheaper brand, dogs lost coat quality and increased stools, so now back to Euk. Past performance and reputation from people I respect as knowledgeable dog people (that doesn't include TV ads etc) but real people I know and trust, are more important to me than price.

IMO Miranda has given you some excellent advice. Waiting until I'm home fulltime would mean not getting a dog until I'm 65!! I'd miss a lifetime of happy and fulfilled dogs!! Agree taking a couple of weeks leave to ease pup into new environment is ideal, but also often not possible. I choose the litters from which I'll take a pup VERY carefully, there may only be a suitable litter once every couple of years in the entire south-pacific region. My work is not flexible as to when I take holidays, so often the arrival of a new pup and my holidays don't coincide. As to the crate for a pup that will grow into a big dog question, get a big crate that comes with an internal divider. Progressively move the divider to give the pup more room in the crate as it grows. You don't want to put a pup into an adult sized crate or it will live in one end and toilet in the other end, which is not what you're trying to teach it. You want it to live/den in the crate and toilet in the yard.

Something I really must learn to do myself :p It's just not worth the effort sometimes

FYI I never said you found FF to be barbaric, in fact I believe this is the first time I've used the term in this discussion. I'm delighted that you've "fully educated" yourself on the subject of FF in the 2 days since you posted asking what the term meant. IMO stay is a meaningless command, I train such that the dog sits on command and remains sitting until released. If the dog is sitting, then it’s staying – why add the confusion of an additional command? FYI the caps lock button is on the left side of the keyboard, third row from the bottom.

FHR - Thanks for your reply. Figuring out why a dog didn't go when you said fetch is sound training in my book, no amount of negative is going to help if a dog has missed the mark. I wasn't suggesting you hadn't given FF informed consideration, having seen it live and on video makes you far more informed than many in this country on the subject. Likewise I'd never suggest that it's the only way to train retrieving, I just get frustrated by the "oooooh I'd never do that to my dog" reactions from people that are clueless as to what it is they are condemning. I'm not claiming to be a good trainer either, but I have had the opportunity to travel and see many different people training their dogs in many different ways, I think an open and curious mind is a good thing to bring to dog training (and much of life in general). Your comment about not retrieving live game is, IMO, very perceptive. If I weren't a hunter, then "fetch" would have an entirely different meaning for me. In theory I guess every command I give my dogs needs to be obeyed, but in reality there are only two that I'm willing to apply a significant physical negative to ensure they are obeyed, sit and fetch. Sit can save a dog's life, I have had one dog hit by a car when it chased a hare onto the road and no desire to see that repeated, so IMO the sit whistle always needs to be obeyed, no matter what. Fetch is of similar importance as loosing shot and possibly wounded game is completely unacceptable to me, if it were only about fetching tennis balls, then I'd not care if the dog missed a few. Best of luck for the trial this weekend, let us know how you get on.

It's obviously up to you, but I'd not have thought dismissing out of hand a technique used by many of the worlds very best gundog trainers before you even have a clue what's involved was much of a way to embark on a voyage of discovery. I disagree with this assessment. Some Brits are hard headed SOBs that need a firm hand to guide/control them in my experience. Like all breeds, the Brittany breed is composed of individuals, each with their own personalities and temperaments, that will benefit from different training approaches. If you're suggesting that properly taught FF is a "heavy handed" technique, then I disagree with you on this point also. FHR could you elaborate on what you would do to apply said negative under these circumstances please? For those that oppose FF, when you say fetch, is it a request or a command? If the later, how do you enforce it? Thanks

I've been wracking my brain trying to remember the name of the chap whose Vizsla I saw run in the Brittany Club pheasant trial, the best I could manage was Don somebody, so I bet it's the same fellow. I agree, his Vizsla that I saw in the field was excellent. Would have to disagree with you about FF being a short cut, but nothing wrong with a health difference of opinion, helps make this such an interesting place.

I understand what you're saying, but to be honest the consequence at the beginning of FF isn't anything more than mild discomfort. I don't enjoy causing my dogs discomfort, but to me as an ethical hunter retrieval of shot game is paramount, I believe FF makes that retrieval more likely and consistent. In addition most in Oz do use some form of "force hold", ie if you drop that bird/bumper before I say "give" there will be a negative consequence, and many times I feel that consequence is far worse than is applied during the FF program. FF breaks a complex action down into tiny steps, so that the pressure applied at each step in the process is minimal. How? If you have multiple dogs you can send another (jealousy), if you can reach the bird/bumper yourself you can make the dog watch as you perform the retrieve yourself. However if you don’t FF and you’re in a hunting situation with a shot bird that is in danger of being lost in river current, what negative can you apply that will "make" the dog perform that retrieve if it decides it would rather not?

FF is a way to structure retrieving. If you rely on dog's desire, what do you do if dog refuses retrieve? If you say sit and dog remains standing there will be a negative consequence. If you say come and dog doesn't respond, there will be a negative consequence, why should retrieve be any different? FF gives you the structure to apply a negative consequence if a dog disobeys a fetch command. All that said, I’d not recommend you undertake a FF program at this stage, get some more experience first. As has been said, many in Oz don’t FF, though I understand it’s becoming more common amongst those that compete in Retrieving trials, probably as understanding of the technique becomes more widespread in this country.

Joking naturally. There are some very fine working Vizslas around, I recall one at Brittany club pheasant trial about 7 years ago, very impressive and went on to win the event. Vizsla are also favoured by the kiwis as indicator dogs for deer hunting, with a number of folk of the opinion that they are quietest in the bush of the versatile breeds. If I was looking for a versatile dog, I'd think long and hard about a Viz, I've not seen a lot of them in the field, but from what I've seen and read I gather a good Viz is highly attuned to their master, which is a trait I value highly. Whilst my training technique could justifiably be termed "no nonsense", I don't care for hard headed dogs. Much prefer a biddable dog that longs to please, then it's just a matter of showing them what you want. Congrats on your retrieving trial success, it's not easy to beat the labs with a versatile dog. As for you not being working bred, it sounds like you're doing a fine job, and if we're honest we've all made similar stuff ups in the field. I recall when my Britt was a young(ish) pup we were out in the paddock to get some bird experience, when she slammed onto a beautiful point, but she was pointing a patch of barren ground, I'm mean barren there wasn't a blade of grass on it. So I sauntered over, shotgun open and laying across my shoulder, shells in my pocket, thinking she was pointing some rabbit poo or the like, when a pair of quail materialised out of thin air, then burst into flight. My mouth was so wide agape that I never even thought of trying to load the gun, to this day I can't understand where those birds came from, but I did learn a valuable lesson about trusting my dog. I didn't know about the 2003 dog of the year, do you have the details, whose dog is it and who bred it?

A working Vizsla you sure it wasn't an orange coloured GSP you saw Guess somebody with a working Vizsla needs to get over to WGAA and show them the error of their ways, have that omission corrected. Strictly speaking they also left out a number of other utility breeds, Spinones, Small Munsterlanders, Pudelpointers and Griffons all come to mind.

That's very much the case, many retriever folk do the vast majority of their training with some form of cap gun. Even in retrieving trials where they do use a real gun, only blanks are fired. In WGAA retrieving trials, the "birds" they use are rubber ducks, see Dokken's Deadfowl Trainer Many folk make their own training dummies, I've got some that I made by stuffing 3 tennis balls into a length of fire hose, then stitching up both ends with fishing line. As for getting the fire hose, the manufacturer was very helpful when I approached them politely, I was willing to pay for it, but as I only needed a meter or two, they gave me some scrap for free. Others have approached local fire stations and got sections of hose that the fire brigade were replacing and would have just been chucked out anyhow. I could recommend a stick type AIR KONG, I got mine from a pet shop here in Brisbane (so I’m sure they must be in Melbourne also) and it works well. Apart from that I have a selection that I bought from the USA. All the Retriever and most Utility Gundog clubs will have a source of training bumpers, some will be handmade by somebody in the club, others will have imported in bulk to save on shipping then re-sell etc. Ask them when you're doing your phone around, somebody will have some for sale. WGAA had some for sale last time I was down in Vic. Perhaps your parents have some from their Lab training that you could "borrow" to get started?

I agree with FHR, for somebody thinking of starting out in retrieving/field disciplines, just give it a go initially, if you decided you love it, then you can worry about the gun & licence thing down the road. baileykira I'd suggest giving the folk at WGAA (Working Gundog Assoc. Aust) a call, they are friendly, knowledgeable and conduct monthly training days in the Melton area. For more info see WGAA Apart from WGAA there are no other clubs that I know of conducting regular gundog training sessions, most gundog training is done via small informal groups of people getting together to train their dogs. You might be able to track down such a group in your area, try ringing some of the gundog/retriever breed clubs (start with Brittanys, but also try other utility/retriever breeds), phone numbers are on the VCA website. The majority of people in these clubs will be into shows, but there will be some folk that work their dogs and the breed club secretaries will be able to put you in contact with them.