Working_Setters

I've shovelled a lot of dog sh*t and don't recall ever seeing maggots, despite the abundance of flies around here. There are some intestinal worms that come out with a dogs droppings and look somewhat like maggots, perhaps that's what you're seeing? I'd either worm the dog, or take an infected stool sample to the vet for analysis.

Bloody hot if recent conditions are any indication. Last night was by far the worst so far this summer, 28oC at our place when I got up at 6am this morning. Can only stay for the Friday unfortunately, will spend Sat with my wife, can't burn up too many points too early in the season, as when the FTs start I'll be away a bit. I look forward to seeing your US dog perform, if not this trial, then sometime soon, there are plenty coming up in the next few months. I know what you mean about training in this heat, I was down the river yesterday, throwing a few dummies and having a swim my self, when one of my dogs jumped into the air and spun around, I thought SH*T SNAKE, I came charging out of the water, yelling at the dog to come. Thankfully it was nothing, just a prickle, but I put the dogs up in the ute just the same.

The degree of difficulty is due to, (sorry, I have no idea how to double quote), the reasons previously mentioned in this thread. As my personal experience has been sending ONE Australian bred labrador to the US and importing ONE US field breed labrador, I cannot fairly answer your question. I enjoy all my dogs. The bottom line I suppose, would be train the dog, to what is expected in the relevant trials. Lablover you are being way too modest!! In addition to sending a dog to the USA for training and importing an American dog to Oz, you've also been a spectator at numerous (I'm not sure how many) US RTs and then "imported" top Pro and Am trainers from USA to give seminars in Oz - I doubt there's anybody more qualified on DOL to give us their opinion of Oz vs USA RTs. LOL, I know those sort of questions can require sooo much typing to answer, and there's way better things to be doing with your time - like training dogs. I'll be at the Nagambie trial on the Friday, hope to see you there, will say G'day and press you for some of those answers you're too busy to type out

Can you use this jealously more to your advantage. I frequently leave several dogs in the back of the ute and have them watch me work with and praise another dog. Really fires up even the reluctant performers, they are falling over themselves to be the next dog to have a turn and then they try so hard to please you. Jealousy is one of the most powerful motivation tools IMO, and a big advantage to having a pack rather than one dog

I think what country joe may have been referring to is the Utility Gundogs Working Test which is certainly going to be open to all Utility Gundog breeds. It is going to be run through the VCA. They are intending on applying to the ANKC to have titles awarded for the tests. I have been sent the judges guidelines and from what I have read about of the NAVHDA test in America, it sounds very similar, although may be more thorough than their Natural Ability test? It tests conformation, obedience, retrieving, pointing and tracking game. Thanks FHR, I'm a big fan of this type of testing and when I was in the USA I often wondered why we lacked this type of testing in Oz, naturally I hope this event is a great success. Now that I have a utility dog in the yard, I'm particularly interested . There is much talk about what can be done to increase the participation rates in field events, I think these tests have the potential to do that, they are certainly very popular in the USA. I hope that eventally these tests will be run a various levels, easy, medium, hard (or whatever names you give them), in much the same way many other doggy events are structured. The advantage of doing so is that it not only gives people long term goals to aim for, but it also keeps more advanced people associated with the event, so those training their dog for the "hard" test, are able to give assistance/advice to those training for the "easy/medium" tests. Since dogs are compared to a written standard, rather than each other, it's not a competition b/t dogs. Therefore handlers are apt to be more generious in assisting each other, making the lower levels of these type of events great for folk wanting to get a start in field work, without the pressure of competition. The Kiwis are a bit more advanced than us in their efforts to establish a similar test, as friend of mine has been to Europe and the USA to learn how it's done over there, before setting up a similar system in NZ. Bodo Winterhelt, one of the founders of NAVHDA, is currently in NZ and it will be interesting to learn what he thinks of the dogs there. Perhaps this NZ experience might be useful when establishing Utility tests here?

Hi Lablover, I was interested in your comment that Oz RTs are conceptually the most difficult in the world. Could you explain this further please? What makes Oz trials conceptually more difficult than those in the USA for example? Also I wonder how you think the top Oz retrievers would perform in USA RTs, and what aspects would our dogs find the most difficult? Conversely, how would the top American dogs perform in our RTs and what aspects would of our trials would be they find most difficult? TIA

I agree that herding should come naturally to a BC, finding and setting birds should come naturally to Setter and retrieving should come naturally to a Lab, never-the-less it takes a good deal more than these "natural inclinations" to win a trial. I can't really comment much on herding trials since I've never competed in them, but from what I can see by watching them and certainly in the case of FTs/RTs your dog is also required to be obedient (heel,sit,stay,fetch,etc), but it is required to perform this obedience in the face of frequently massive temptations/distractions, distractions that I feel are far greater than those encountered in the Ob Ring. From what I've seen of Ob events (again these are just observations as I've never entered a formal Ob event), the biggest challenge is to maintain the dog's interest in what are a rather boring set of exercises. (Boring when compared to the herding sheep for a BC or finding quail for a Setter) With regard to dogs working sheep/quail/etc; what I'm trying to say is that adding another animal, particularly a wild animal like quail, adds an element of unpredictability to the event (unpredictability that you have to try and train for). The behaviour of a dead or inanimate object is entirely predictable, not so with a living creature. In many events there are really 2 variables, the dog and the handler. In events like FTs there are 3 variables, the dog, the handler and the other animals encountered in the field. Joe - I must have mislead you with my post, I've not entered my setters in any RTs and I agree that it would be a good deal more difficult to train my setters for RTs than FTs. Many setters are fond of the water, good swimmers and excellent duck dogs, my male in particular uses his nose to good effect and does an excellent job of busting through heavy aquatic vegetation locating downed ducks, but as you well know RTs are an entirely different matter. With regard to the “new naturally ability test” you mentioned; Is it a "GSP" event, or is it open to all Utility dogs? Which canine organisation is going to run the test? (I know WGAA has plans for this type of event, and held a training day/"test run" type even last year) In the USA there is a "naturally ability" test, which is for pups and is designed to test basic inherited instincts and abilities, however there are several more advanced levels of testing for adult dogs, that whilst requiring naturally ability also require a good deal of training - much like the training needed to turn a naturally retrieving Lab into a competitive RT dog.

I prefer to call them "Power Naps" and remind my OH that "they could save your life", according to the TAC, after I wake up from a snooze.

I agree introducing another animal into the equation certainly can (and usually does) complicate matters a great deal.

I know that, but its going to be easier to train a dog for trails of whatever when it is that way inclined naturally. ie. trying to train a reluctant retriever with bad water ethics then one that loves water and retrieving, or training a hound to do high level obedience, certainly not impossibly but definately harder to train then your usual mix of Goldens and BCs. I think Working Setters was just referring to the Utility Gundog class in the US since it has so many different facets . Yep that's exactly what I meant It's one thing to find/train a dog that's good in water OR good in the field OR good at tracking etc, it quite another to find/train a dog that's good in the water AND good in the field AND good at tracking, all in the one day.

I agree that field/retrieving trials are very hard to win, as it's not just a question of having your dog complete an exercise, or series of exercises, rather you have to do those exercise(s) better than every other dog there on the day. In addition I think field trials in particular are a real test of obedience, as you frequently encounter hares, rabbits, foxes etc that pose a serious distraction to all but the best trained dogs. However perhaps the hardest event I've trained a dog for was the German style versatile (utility) gundog tests I did in the US. These were a real challenge b/c of the number and diversity of exercises that are assessed in one day. There is field work (locating and pointing, then retrieval of birds). Two types of water work, one similar to a novice level retrieving trial here in Oz, the other is a swamp search (a duck is released somewhere in a swamp) and dog has to locate it without assistance from handler. There is a tracking exercise. There is an obedience exercise, in addition to the assessment of general obedience throughout the other exercises. It's a tough test, the dog and handler have to change mental gears frequently and bring the right approach to each different exercise. It's rare to find a dog that's a "natural" in all the different areas that are assessed, which adds to the training challenge.

Forgot to add - The book I recommend to new puppy owners is "How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves: Taking Advantage of Early Conditioned Learning - by Joan Bailey". SEE HERE. However the advice isn't Lab specific, rather it's applicable to all gundog/retriever breeds, also there is a focus of preparing dogs for field/retrieving work, but IMO it's still an excellent book for gundog/retriever breed pet owners.

Before I could recommend any books I'd need to know what your goals are for the dog, as IMO most of the good books are subject specific rather than breed specific. Do you want a well behaved and socialised pet? Or are you wanting to participate/compete in one or more of doggy games available? In either case, my advice would be to find a local dog club in your area. Most run some form of "puppy class", which includes a lot of socialisation with other pups and their owners, some good advice on the animal husbandry needs of your dog, and an introduction to the basics of obedience training. Courses generally run one evening per week for approx 6-8 weeks, with a cost of $60-$120. Books are certainly helpful, but IMO there's nothing better than some guidence from experienced dog people to get you off on the right track, that's why I'd recommend a local dog club. ETA : Welcome to the wonderful world of dogs and to DOL. There are a lot of experienced dog people on here and if you have specific questions regarding training/behaviour, you'll generally get some informative replies. They won't necessarily all agree with each other, and you'll need to decide which approach works best for you and your dog - but that's dog training LOL.

I know how easy it is to miss threads, I do it all the time!! I just let people know that I'd posted them previously in case they thought "hey, I've seen those pics somewhere before!!" Thank you If I can I'm sure anybody can. Like I say, a quick check for burrs and a "bath' (swim) in the dam/river is all the coat "care" mine get. I'll be competing in FT's in NSW latter in the year, I'll let you and PF know where and when and you can check out the dogs in person if you're interested. I'll end my hi-jack now too, sorry if it bothered anybody.

I think it's about time we see some pictures of your dogs WS!! I love the looks of the field setters I've seen on various websites. Here's some I posted to DOL about a year ago, I'll fiddle around and reduce the file size of some new pics as soon as I have some spare time.

LOL - grooming - I know I've a brush around here somewhere, but I'd be pressed to put my hands on it. This is going to sound terrible, so before I say it I'd like to be clear that my dogs (and their coats) are in excellent condition/health. I NEVER groom my dogs, NEVER. The few burrs and grass seeds they pick up I pull you with my hands. I check them for burrs and seeds regularly, particularly between the toes and under the arm-pits (leg-pits?), but never groom. My wife will run the brush over them 2-3 times a year, generally the beginning of summer when they shed, but that's about it. Whilst on the subject I might as well tell you my idea of "bathing" a dog is to take them to the river/dam for a swim, I never dry them either. I use shampoo and the tub and give them a "proper" bath maybe 1-2 a year. They do swim in the river/dam pretty much everyday. My working setters are very much "wash and wear", it's the showies that need the grooming. If I had a burr problem, I'd clip the dogs.

Hi Lablover, "Wei not a working lab?" That's seriously funny!! You're correct of course, anybody that's serious about going to the top in the retrieving world should start out with a couple of well bred working lab pups. The truth is that I'm just dabbling a little in retrieving and RTs, my main interest remains field work and FTs. I've had an interest in Weis for a long time, I admire their courage, intelligence and muscular physique beautifully displayed under that short grey coat. I'm also fond of Utility dogs in general, they are really quite different to my Setters, and Weis are amongst the "least Setter like" of the utility breeds (which I consider to be a good thing, why get another "setter like" dog when I already have two fine ISs?). Besides RTs, I’m planning to use the Wei for tracking and hunting (deer). All that said I'd not have a purchased a Wei pup just at present, however circumstances are such that a friend of mine has a young adult Wei that they are finding a bit of a handful and the dog is under-utilised as a result. I'd like to "dabble" in some retrieving and from what I've seen this dog has potential, I think I'll be able to sort out some of this dog's issues, which are mainly dominance related. We have reached an agreement where-by I took on the dog and see what I can do. It will be an interesting journey for both of us (me and the Wei I mean), if I'm (we’re) successful I'll look forward to seeing you at some RTs latter in the year. If we can work our way up to being competitive in Restricted, I’ll be well pleased.

Interesting Working Setters. My observations is that in regards to performance dogs, it is the Retrieving trial dogs that are most likely to be rehomed if they don't 'make the grade'. I'm talking the more traditional breeds too, not the silly folk who try to get their Utility gundogs to be retrievers I agree that many "issues" can be solved by training, but I also think a top competition field dog needs certain natural drive and confidence that some dogs just don't have. I also believe that some times it's a case of the dog doesn't suit the handlers style of training.... I know of rehomes of obedience and agility dogs too, but it seems far less common than show dogs. Hi FHR - I'm about to join you in those ranks of "silly folk", I'm taking in a Wei from a friend (breeder) and will be very interested to see what we can achieve in retrieving trials and possibly tracking (if time permits). I agree completely with your post, we both know of driven/highly-competitive retriever trial folk that have gone through their share of "wash-outs" on the way to collecting championship ribbons. When I made my comments about "field events" I was thinking of Pointer and Setter field trial folk. These dogs are slower to mature than retrievers, (particularly in the case of my ISs) and their work is in large part instinctive, rather than taught, as is the case with retrievers. Much of the "training" of a P/S is in fact exposure, getting the dog afield amongst wild birds in widely varying terrain and climatic conditions. It takes time and repeated exposure for dogs to learn to work well on wild birds. These dogs need time to mature before you can see their best and I'd personally need to give a P/S until at least the age of 3 before declaring it a "dud". At which point, if the dog showed no desire to find birds, I would seek to rehome in a good pet home. (3 years is a long time, which is why I highly recommend to newbies they select the breed, the breeder and the breeding with the utmost care). I'm not sure if the P/S FT people are less competitive than the RT folk (I would say most P/S FT competitors are primarily hunters that also FT, whereas “non-hunting, competition only” dogs are more common in RTs), but in the main most P/S FT competitors (not breeders) only have a couple of competition aged dogs, and they are likely to keep those dogs their entire lives. Perhaps there are just so few FTs in Oz, and it takes so much time and training to get a dog to FT standard, most FT competitors run on their current dogs despite any "issues", rather than start out with a new pup, a pup that might not be any better and could certainly be worse, than their current dog.

Motivate with something other than food?

I mostly train by myself or with a small group of friends, so clubs closing for the summer doesn't really effect me. This summer I'm doing plenty of swimming, some heeling and force fetch, plus plently of hard free running exercise (the dogs, not me) cause they love it and would go nuts without it.

In my experience rehoming due to lack of performance in field events is rare, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. I would estimate it would take most people until the dog is around the age of 4 to decide a dog was a "dud" from a performance point of view, by that age you're generally pretty attached to the dog. In the main, very few field bred dogs are complete duds from a working point of view, sure some are better than others, but few are complete duds, rather most have some "issues/problems" that, in most cases, can (potentially at least) be solved via training. So unlike conformation events (at least my understanding of them, having attended a few - but never having entered any), in field performance events it's often not a clear case that a dog does or doesn't "make the grade", rather it's more usual to have a dog that shows potential, but needs training (or a different approach to training) to sort out some problems that are holding the dog back. Most owners won't give up on (rehome) that type of dog. There are a few driven competitors that won't persist with a dog that doesn't measure up to a given yard stick by a certain age, but in my experience they are very much in the minority. Most field trainers persist with these "less promising dogs", personally I have, b/c I considered not only the welfare of the dog, but also the opportunity of my growth as a trainer, if I could sort out these "issues" and turn this dog into a performer, then I'd have become that much more accomplished as a trainer. IMO most owners see the potential for great performances in their field bred dogs and take on the challenge of realising that potential.

Congrats on a super year Vickie :rolleyes: I'm thinking of dusting off my boots and coming in from the paddock to give agililty a go. I reckon I've got a setter that could give your herding dogs a run for their money. Like you I wouldn't be able to attend class every week, I assume you do most of your training at home - any tips you'd care to share? Congrats again on an outstanding year.

Thanks KI, sounds like an interesting book - How are you liking it? A friend of mine had good success clicker training her dog not to rush the back fence and bark at the neighbours kids.

My dogs do very well on Eukanuba. Skin and coat are definately improved over other (cheaper) foods. Hard to say about muscle and energy levels, I work my dogs hard and monitor this closely, so far no difference that I can detect. I also feed my dogs a lot of meat and chicken, in addition to dry.

I think this is spot on, at least it is in regard to my post. I talking about multiple clicks, each one the same sound, signifying a reward (just like clicker training), except that the treat is to be given after the exercise is complete. Some dogs can "count" or at least some version of counting, retrievers doing triples know that after they have retrieved 2 dummies there is still another one to get. However I agree with Erny, I have trouble believing the "average" dog can learn one click = kibble and five clicks = chicken, so if we put the counting aside for a minute, what do people think about multiple clicks (or other CR) during a complex exercise, each CR marking a success point in the exercise. To communicate to the dog that your are pleased with its effort so far, and that it should keep that effort up to complete the exercise and get the PR. I agree there would be times when it complicates things, for example dog has done 80% of exercise correctly, you've CRed (clicked) 4 times (each time 20% of the exercise was successfully completed), but now dog competely stuffs up the final 20% of the exercise, you've already clicked, so you have to treat, but now are rewarding a stuff up. Now I remember why I stick to simple time honoured training methods - I can understand them :rolleyes: