Working_Setters

If anybody is interested, video of the 2008 Kennel Club Champion Stake for Pointers and Setters can be found HERE

I agree with PAX and Vickie. Your dog obeys sit in no/low distraction environment, but ignores you in high distraction setting. You need to go back and work in a medium distraction setting. I find successful repetition and slowly increasing the level of distraction are the keys. I do this repeatedly until sit to whistle is second nature to my dogs. When they hear the sit whistle, they only have one thought, to get their backside on the ground as quickly as possible. I don’t teach my dogs many commands (party tricks), but those I do teach, I teach very thoroughly.

It terms of Pointers/Setters I'd say Oz/NZ are much the same. There is a lot of sharing of genetics. Spaniels also, Rachel has been sending and receiving ESS to/from NZ for years. Retrievers - I defer to your much greater knowledge. I do have Snakefoot in my library. A very interesting book, it contains the thoughts and philosophies of Bob toward the end of his career. Reflecting on his incredible life and one of the most amazing canine breeding programs of the modern era.

Rick spoke favorably of several of the dogs that he saw. I think the biggest difference was cosmetic in terms of tail carriage and action. America is unique in the gundog world in their love of "12 o'clock" tail. (Tails that stand straight up when the dog is on point). They also breed for very active tails when the dog is working. Rick commented on the lack of tail action of our dogs. When I first saw American dogs I thought "man that tail is wagging the dog". Also when you approach a dog that's on point with a 12 o'clock tail, you get a pretty good look at their poop-shoot, personally I'd prefer that remained covered by the tail. So it's a matter of preferring what you're used to. Oz/NZ dogs are the same. There is a lot of movement of dogs back and forth between the two countries. As for American dogs, Rick spends most of his time training hunter's dogs in the US and they are much the same as hunter's dogs here. It's the US high end field trial dogs that are a whole different ball game.

Best bet is to go to some retrieving trials, see the dogs, talk to the owners/trainers and get a clear mental picture of what it is you are trying to achieve with your dog. Unlike field trials, there are heaps of retrieving trials, so finding one to attend is easy. Just contact the VCA, or any of the retriever breed clubs, for a schedule. There are group of retrieving training folk around albury that I train with from time to time, mostly when it's too hot (too many snakes) for me to do field work with my dogs. One guy competes successfully at the highest level (All Age), the others are very knowledgeable trainers who complete at lower levels basically because of the breeds they choose to compete with. I'm PM you their details.

"Basically what it is all about" is dogs using their nose's to locate game (quail, rabbits, hares, etc). It's the function the gundog breeds were created to perform and IMO the most enjoyable thing you will ever do with your dog (for both of you). Despite what some factions of todays politically correct society would have you believe, both dog and humans are hunters. To work as a team with your dog to achieve this most ancient of goals is extremely rewarding. There are numerous books I could mention, but it's a tough thing for a complete novice to learn from a book. I gather that you're in S.E. QLD, which is great because there are Field Trials in your area. I'd suggest you contact the CCCQ (they're on the web) and get ask for some info. They'll be able to put you in contact with people who work their dogs in the field and you can go from there. IMO It's much better to learn initially by seeing and talking to people. Save the books and DVDs for later when you understand the basics and are after more specific info.

Yep there were a range of gundog breeds represented, both pointing and flushing breeds. I should have taken my Irish as they were one breed that was missing. Was a great weekend and I'd highly recommend it to anybody, if they are interested in dog training, then there is much to learn here.

Hi LL - Sorry to hear of your friend's hubby. Yep Rick mentioned Ronnie many times. They've worked very closely together training dogs. All 3 of their training DVDs feature both Rick and Ronnie. They have a long family history of dog training, Rick's father Delmar Smith was a very successful dog trainer/ field trial winner. Years ago he wrote an excellent book on dog training. I gather Rick's grandfather was also a successful dog breeder,trainer and field trialer. For years Rick and Ronnie have worked together out of Texas, but just recently Rick has married a lady from Virginia and moved up there. He spends about 8 month a year on the road, giving training seminars and 4 months back on the ranch in Texas guiding hunters on Bob White quail. Some life huh, unimaginable you could make a living doing that here in Oz. The difference between 20 million people and 300 million I guess, plus a strong and active group of hunters. (meaning there are a lot of gundogs that need training). ETA - you are correct in that much of what was taught is applicable to all areas of training. Much of the seminar was about preparing dogs to learn, having them attentive and ready/willing to receive training.

Hi Mercedes - Yep I had a good chat with your OH. I've got his card here and will give him a call to arrange some training when I get a chance. Glad he enjoyed the seminar, there was lots to learn.

Forgot to say, Orange and White Pointer Bitch I'm working is Dash, the pup in my signature line, now at 14 months.

Yeah, pics are great. (I didn't take any of them) Expensive digital camera (not sure of details) but big zoom lens for close up shots that can be hard to get in the field. LL is into retrieving trials big time, this seminar was on field work (rather than retrieving work), still with gundogs, but different focus. PS You're correct, the dogs had a great time too!!

Thanks Jeff. I think everybody had a good time and learned a great deal about training dogs. Mostly about preparing their mind so they are ready and willing to learn - once that's done the training is much easier to achieve.

I posted to this forum sometime ago that Rick Smith, the best know professional gundog trainer in the USA, would be coming to Australia to give a training seminar. Well the seminar has been and gone and what a great weekend it was!! This very interesting 2 day seminar was AFAIK a first for Oz. It was the first time Rick, or any other professional field gundog trainer has conducted a training seminar in Oz. (There have been a couple of retrieving training seminars given by pro US trainers, but I'm pretty sure this was the first field based event). Rick teaches a very different style of training to that used by most Aussies, since we have until now generally followed the British style of dog training. It will be very interesting to see the impact this seminar has on future field trial performances in this country. Anybody interested in seeing some pictures of the weekend training can do so HERE. For anybody that's interested, I'm the big guy in the black shirt and akurba hat working the orange and white pointer bitch. Cheers. WS PS Congratulations and many thanks to WGAA and SSAA for hosting this outstanding event. Those that missed out this time around can take comfort in the fact that there is already quite a deal of interest in having Rick return to Oz in 2009.

Venue a little west of Melbourne, between Melbourne and Geelong. Cheers, WS

Well known American professional dog trainer Rick Smith (son of the legendary Delmar Smith) has confirmed acceptance of WGAA's invitation to conduct a Foundation Seminar in Victoria on the 24th, 25th & 26th of October 2008. Both Rick and his brother Ron have conducted seminars in New Zealand in recent years, and the positive comments from those who attended these seminars has encouraged the WGAA (Vic) committee to invite Rick to these shores. The cost is $410.00 AUD per person. The Seminar begins on Friday (24th) evening with an orientation and introduction session and continues all day on Saturday and Sunday. The seminar is open to all gundog owners and is conducted on a 'hands on' basis, with handlers bringing their dogs. The seminar is open to all breeds and levels of gundogs. Places are limited so make sure you don't miss out. For more information visit Rick's website at HuntSmith To request brochures and application form please contact Barry Oliver - mob. 0403380092 email [email protected]

Sounds good. Just be careful with the vibration feature, some dogs react negatively to it. Introduce it gradually with your guys and carefully judge their reaction. Talk to K9, I recall him posting that he'd experienced something along these lines with the vibration feature.

Nice to see an intelligent and semi-civil thread on e-collars on DOL. These threads are generally swamped with so much emotional BS and ignorance that they quickly become worthless. Mark - GREAT POST. IMO clicker is great for some dogs and in some situations. High distraction recalls (eg chasing rabbits) with game driven dogs isn't one of the those situations in my experience. I've trained with a clicker/total positive instructor that could not recall her GSD from running deer (deer are everywhere in that part of the USA), the instructor had been working with her dog and the clicker for 3 years without success, her refusal to use an e-collar meant the dog never dog any off-leash running. My poor, e-collar abused, birddogs on the other hand where romping through the woods off-leash on a daily basis. BP Good on you for getting past the ignorant rubbish that abounds on the internet and trying e-collars for yourself. Going through a knowledgeable pro is the best approach. As you've discovered e-collars can be a great training tool for the real world, where your recall is challenged constantly. Having 100% recall will enable you to give the dogs so much more freedom and off-leash exercise - they'll love it. A thought you might like to consider, I also train 100% sit. I use a whistle, which I think carries better than human voice. Everytime my dog hear that whistle they sit. Then I have the choice of either recalling, or going to the dogs. There have been times, such as when I've seen a snake near by for eg, that I want to pick the dogs up quickly, but don't want them to come back to me (toward the snake). So I sit them, then go to them and get the heck out of there!! Hi Tess. It's not that I don't like clicker training. Its just that I don't agree with the "Totally Positive Reinforcement" philosophy that is taught in clicker training. I also tend to agree, as Steve (K9 Force) pointed out earlier in this Thread, that he uses voice. I also don't see why you need to use a clicker as a marker..voice does just fine. But overall the philosophy of marking acceptable behaviour is not what I have issue with, its the socalled totally positive training philosophy. Yes it works on 'some' dogs for sure, but as an overall blanket training system, it has been proven (in my opinion) that it is not suitable, and we all need to be aware of that.. :p Now I think we should just get back on topic as BellasPerson has asked us too ;) If anybody wants to start a new post on the pros and cons of different training methods/systems.. I'll surely join in. Cheers everyone Mark

In my experience he'll grow out of the peeing. It's a nervous/excited reaction, not a dominance thing, so I doubt desexing will help (but it won't hurt either). There are things you can do to help, don't get him over excited when he's inside with a full bladder. Have him sit, then introduce new people to him that way. No sense punishing him, it's a nervous/excited reaction, not something he's doing deliberately and not something he can stop "cause he knows it's wrong". Just love him and as he gains confidence and maturity the problem will sort itself out.

I agree with PF - I doubt it was the chicken. Feral cats etc get larger than pet cats by natural selection, not diet. So over a number of generations, those feral cats best adapted to survival in the wild are the ones who pass on their genes, those cats less suited to life in the wild die out. From what I've seen, the optimal size for a feral cat in the Oz bush is, as you say, bigger (taller and longer but not fatter) that a typical pet. They also sport some serious teeth, again naturally selected for.

Thanks - she's coming along a treat, bold as brass. Very pleased. Not sure about a retriever, maybe another ESS. My setters do a pretty fair impression of water dogs, they swim for miles (literally) here in the Murray. Not to mention the ticks and cane toads!! You're right - I'm in no hurry to exchange the freedom of 10,000 acres for the confines of Brisbane dog parks. The solution that's working well for me is dog booties on the back feet (padding takes the damaging nails out of scratching) and a muzzle (prevents biting/licking of itchy skin, also stops the biting off of the booties and the eating of aloe/oatmeal based treatments). Couldn't find the bitters, but got good results with an oatmeal based shampoo. The plastic cone to prevent ear scratching only lasted 2 days and more robust bucket I modified only went 3!! Thankfully ears are healing up and with the booties in place, no further damage is being done. If I'm forced to use a ear protection in the future, not sure what I'll do - metal bucket??

Hi TT - yes it has been awhile - hope all is well in sunny Qld. Had a great autumn/winter down here, out on wild birds every weekend. Dogs were so hard and fit, the picture of health. Have slowed down a bit recently with the snakes and grass seeds (which are worse than the snakes). Thanks for the swedish bitters tip, will give it a try. Thanks also to kamuzz and 4paws, will give the herbal treatments and altered diet a go if the rash presists depite the booties and bitters. Cheers, WS

Two of my dogs have developed an itch rash cycle that I'd like to clear up. Background: I'm fairly sure the initial irritant was grass seed/pollen. I'm also fairly sure that the irritant is no longer in our environment (susceptible dog coming back to farm hasn't re-developed rash). However two of my dogs have developed a fairly bad case of itch/scratch cycle. In the worst of the dogs, his ears have a couple of bloody scabs. There are also some spots of irritation on the front legs and on the side of the chest. I went to the vet, got a course of Macrolone, which helped a little, but didn't cure the problem, now the Macrolone has run out and the problem has become worse. I got a head cone to stop scratching of the ears (but didn't stop scratching of front legs and chest). The cone lasted 2 days before my dog destroyed it. During those two days there was significant improvement to the ears. Currently: The nails on the back feet are what's being used to do the scratching, so I've just made some Denim booties and taped them over my dogs' back feet, figuring that enclosing the nails will prevent the scratching. Future: I'm not really hopefully that the booties will stay on long. Knowing my dogs, they will chew them off pretty quickly. If this occurs, I'm planning to re-tape on the booties, then also tape together the back feet, so the dog will still be able to walk (small steps). like a hobbled horse, but not able to lift a back leg to scratch. I'm also planning to make a more robust "head cone" out of a plastic bucket. This will serve to protect the ears and also prevent the dogs' chewing at the booties on their back feet. I know it won't be pretty, but even if they need to be crated for a few days then so be it, this rash has gone on long enough and I need to clear it up now. I reckon 5-7 days will be all it takes for the rash to heal and thus to break the itch/scratch cycle. Any thoughts/suggestions on the proposed treatment or alternative strategies much appreciated. (Would prefer not you use any more drugs if I can help it)

GSPs will do that. Sorry to be flippant, but GSPs are known for being both excitable and vocal. PF is right a walk/run at the dog park in the mornings isn't enough exercise for a young GSP. While I do highly recommend exercise, you must remember that (up to a point) the more you run your dog, the fitter it will get, so the more you'll have to run it, and so on. As mentioned, training is excellent mental exercise and will help a lot. By 7 months I think your dog needs to be learning some self control, just b/c it's light doesn't make it acceptable to bark/ whine, at least it doesn't at my place!! If/when my dogs indulge in unacceptable vocalisation, then there is a negative consequence. I find a squirt bottle for indoor use and water balloons for use in the yard to be very effective. If you can administer them without the dog being aware of your presence so much the better.

PM you've certainly made things more difficult for yourself by allowing things to get this bad. Your dog has learnt that recall is optional and that's a serious problem. The more you call the dog and the dog ignores the "command" the more damage is being done. As you (and many others) have discovered, there's a big difference b/t recalls in the Ob ring and recalls in the real world. IMO you are trying to move from a low distraction environment (Ob ring) recall, to a high distraction environment (5 acres) far too quickly. You need to do a lot more successful recalls in a medium distraction environment first. IMO you need to regain control of this situation. Clearly you're not able to control the dog when she's loose in the 5 acres, so don't let her loose in the 5 acres, at least not for training. If you want to give her exercise, fine let her loose on the 5 acres, BUT NEVER give recall command, you can only let her loose for exercise when you have enough time to wait for her to run around and get tired so she comes back on her own, then you reward her with water etc. For training you need initially need a far more controlled environment. Are you able to fence off a smaller sub-section of the 5 acres? If not then you'll need to find somewhere else to train initially. You need to very gradually build on the recall success you have at Ob class, but this is VERY gradual, always setting your dog up for success. You need to build the habit of recalling, first time, every time you call. I understand what you're saying about punishing the dog for not recalling, and I do this also, but you try to keep this punishment to a minimum. You want 99% successful recalls and praise and 1% unsuccessful recalls and punishment. I'm quite a simple, old fashioned trainer, but I don't know anybody who has a truly reliable recall without that 1% punishment. So you need to regain control of you dog. I prefer to do this by working in enclosed (fenced) environment, but you can also do it by working the dog on a check cord (long line). You need to start out gradually, recalling only when you are sure the dog will come and rewarding that success. If dog doesn't recall you want to be able to very quickly catch dog and enforce recall, that's why you’re in the enclosed environment (or using the long line). Timing of recall is very important, wait for that second when your dog stops what it's doing and looks up at you, in that second recall loudly and enthusiastically. Do this over and over, build the habit of prompt recalls. When you dog recalls, treat and release. Coming to you is a pleasure, not a punishment. Recall, treat and release, over and over. Recalling and clipping the dog on the lead every time will kill recall fast. Never recall when you think dog wont obey, wait until dog is less distracted, then call. You are TRAINING, not TESTING, training is about 99% success and reward. Some other thoughts: I've not seen you and your dog, so I can't tell from here, but you may want to consider changing to a different command for recall since the one you're currently using has been desensitised and is no longer a "command" (something which must be obeyed) in the eyes of your dog. I find a whistle works far better human voice. Do you need to bond more strongly with your dog? If the dog is not looking to you regularly, regularly providing those "recallable moments" then maybe you need to strengthen you bond with the dog and your position as pack leader. NILF and TIT (both pined at the top of this forum) are excellent techniques that you may benefit from. My absolute, 100% must be obeyed command is sit. I work with my dogs until I can sit them anywhere any time. Once sitting it is easy to recall, else leave sitting and go to dog. This approach is subtlety different to straight out recall and initial stages of training can be done indoors, on lead etc. Situations where you have control. There will still be those times (hopefully very much in the minority) when your dog will test you and ignore recall. In those instances you need to be able to very quickly catch the dog and enforce command. Remember this BEFORE you give recall command, if dog chooses to ignore, will you be able to quickly catch dog and re-enforce command? If not, why are you training in this area? Recall train in a controlled environment. Exercise your dog in the full 5 acres, but understand that at the moment you don't have control out there and hence will have to wait until dog is ready to come back before giving recall. Much has been written about recall training in previous thread in this training forum. You might benefit from reading some of those.

I think it would be a good idea to gauge the experience level of the class members and ask them what they'd like to do. I like to take my pups to a puppy preschool, but as an experienced dog owner I really don’t need/want to hear about how to care for a pup/dog, nor do I particularly want any training advice. What I do want is socialisation for the pup, socialisation with other pups, with other people, and with new surroundings that are relatively safe for a young pup (not yet fully vaccinated) that's why I go to puppy preschools. I've got a new pup coming in a couple of weeks, my first since shifting to Albury, and I'm currently shopping around for a puppy preschool. So far they seem quite pricey, $80-$90 for 4-6 classes, and all seem to emphasise training rather than socialising the pups.