mjk05

That's why utility trials are a bit more "real" than 3 sheep- in utility the dog has to be able to go out and get the sheep, fetch them into the yards, then work sheep through the yards, then take some out into the paddock again and work them round obstacles. Its a bit more like real farm work than 3sheep, where its all paddock. But its a big ask for dogs to have the qualities to do both very well, so most people have paddock dogs and yard dogs, and use them in different situations. The yard specialists tend to be direct, pushy and forceful, with bark and bite if needed, and the paddock types are all style, distance and pretty footwork. Most dogs can do a bit of both, but dogs that do both well are impressive. Most of the 3 sheep dogs here are working farm dogs too (from necessity as much as anything). Most triallers are farmers, most farmers can't afford to have dogs kept aside for trialling only. Most of our 3 sheep dogs can work well in yards (BC and kelpie), and most do both utility/yard and 3sheep trials. I've been told there's a good reason we don't drive a lot in our trials compared with other countries, and don't encourage dogs to cross. Apparently our merinos are much lighter/more runny than British breeds, and don't like being driven. The heavier meat breed sheep are happy to be pushed from behind by dogs, but the merinos (apparently) tend to take off running if the dog gets behind them with nothing to balance. If you are using well-dogged sheep, that's not such a problem, but if you're out working sheep that rarely see dogs, its more of an issue. I don't know the truth in that- I think the NZ trials have a lot of driving, and don't they have merinos? And the US ISDS style trials have lots of driving, and don't they often use Barbs/Katahdin/etc that are supposed to be very light? For people who are teaching an inside flank, are you using a different command for the dog to come in vs. flanking behind you?

Ouch That's quite a statement- I know what he means, yard trials are more forgiving than 3 sheep, but getting a top score in a yard trial isn't easy (maybe for Greg, but not for most). I'd also like to point out (for people who don't do WSDA trials) that most people who do "yard trials" are actually doing utility trials (yard scores used separately for the yard competition), so the dogs are required to do a paddock section. I've heard a few good triallers talk about utility trialling as being the ultimate sport, because it does require all round dogs. I know they especially appeal to farmers, for whom a large part of dogs' useful work will be in the yards. While most 3sheep dogs are also good working dogs, 3sheep is a more stylised "sport", more removed from daily farm work. I'm not trialling yet, but I also prefer the paddock-style kelpies, and I think I will prefer 3sheep trials. But I wouldn't dismiss utility/yard trials as the easy option, or requiring no natural instinct!

Yep, I'm allowed to use the clicker with my class 6+ dog, who doesn't need it (we just use club classes to proof stays, basically)- but not my new dog, who learns best if I train the same at class as at home. Sigh... That's also why you can do agility (after extensive assessment)- 3 is considered a trialling level class. My 1E dog trains on Open/Masters courses at other clubs, but if I tried to get him assessed for agility at NS now, he probably wouldn't be eligible (fortunately I got him assessed when the rules were briefly relaxed ) Let us know what you think of Joondalup, or any other clubs you try.

I don't know about any training in Carramar- is it a club or private training? My general advice is to call up and ask questions about training methods- if its sounds good, go along to watch once or twice, and see how the classes run. Look out for dogs that are similar to yours (in behaviour etc), talk to the instructors and class members, and then decide. There's no point sticking with a class that isn't working for you or your dog, just because you've already signed up. Most clubs will be happy to discuss their training methods with you. I don't know how Joondalup Dog Club is going, but I heard good things about them a few years ago. Otherwise PTODC or CCC might be your best bet. If you call the Canine Association of WA, they can give you a list of clubs and contact details. Good luck

You must be in the pre-trialling classes, because no-one in the lower classes is allowed to use clickers. I can't train my 1E dog with the clicker- its apparently restricted to the pre-trialling classes, and only with special permission. I started out doing it, in fact I've trained with the clicker there for about 5 years, and only recently were they banned. You can't automatically do agility- you need to be assessed (twice, according to Georgia- once by an obedience instructor, and than again by an agility instructor). One of my friends recently had her dog assessed, and was required to do a SFE to trialling standard. It is great to proof- but I agree with you that it doesn't cater for easily distracted high-drive dogs. Those of us with these dogs need to train the basics elsewhere, and then consider NS for the advanced stuff if necessary. For me, that defeats the purpose- I can train the advanced stuff, I need the exposure to the class environment for basic training with my new dog- but I want to train consistently, with the clicker, and within my dog's limits (short bursts of training). So we've had to go elsewhere

What incorrect facts ? They don't allow clickers (I think maybe the only club in Perth with that rule, and certainly the only "positive" club with that rule) They require competition-level obedience to start agility training- the only club in Perth with that rule. I also enjoyed training there over the past 7 years, and used to recommend it to everyone (I had my own flyers with club details to give to people who asked about training at our local dog parks etc). But recently I've found people somewhat disappointed by training there , they imagine it is based on the methods shown at competition heelwork clinics etc, and teaches the clicker-based methods of our top obedience competitors. I'm sure it caters well to people just interested in pet training with no dog training experience - but for people who use clicker-based methods, have dogs with "issues", or who aspire to competition agility/obedience, there are many other clubs that cater much better IMHO . Re agility training- its probably worth getting back into it, in order to assess various classes. I've found its advanced significantly in WA over the last few years, and most people are members of at least 2 training groups (including almost ALL the advanced trainers at NS)- so you can get the same level of training (without the restrictions) at most other clubs. I have only rescues too, and lost my own baby not too long ago , so I'm also on a hiatus, learning other dog sports. Good luck with your training, and I hope to see you around the clubs- most other clubs cater well for "reactive" dogs , and there are plenty of us trialling these dogs, so you might find even your reactive dog can enjoy this sport at other clubs

So why not allow them in class? According to some of the clicker-heeling seminars held by top obedience competitors, dogs have no trouble identifying their own clicker among others in the class environment, and that has been my personal experience. Yes, some dogs are temporarily distracted by the clicking noise if they aren't clicker-trained, but they soon get used to it, and really it's a minor distraction in comparison to kids playing ball, other dogs playing tug, etc that they will need to be proofed against. I doubt you would get a class of 40 beginners using clickers- even before the club banned them, when they were sold in the caravan, I never saw more than 2 or 3 people using them in class, and they were all experienced clicker trainers. Most beginners aren't keen on another thing to hold/handle in class. Its great that they work for you- my observations of classes using "verbal markers" over 12 months were that most people were using praise only, not true verbal bridges or markers. The dogs didn't seem to respond to a "click word", and people tended to praise through an exercise, then reward at the end of the exercise. Personally I prefer to use the clicker ESPECIALLY in high-distraction environments, because it is a more effective marker, doesn't have the complications of voice-alterations, and is what I use at home (consistency is pretty important). My dogs are trained to a verbal marker, but I'd prefer to use the clicker. What's the point of that? Standard of competitive obedience has no bearing on suitability for agility. As I've said, some dogs in obedience trialling classes have regularly run amok at agility, and at other clubs there are dogs who have done NO formal obedience who are trialling. I recently heard of an obedience instructor requiring a prospective agility dog to do a Stand-For-Examination as part of their assessment- what on earth for??? If there is one thing agility dogs DON'T need to know, its a formal don't-move-your-feet SFE. But there are a good number of the trialling dogs (in fact, I'd say the majority) who don't do obedience at all- will you be asking them to do obedience (or at least be assessed) next year? And I think agility there ran pretty effectively previously, too. Sounds good- are you going to start agility training? They have a new pre-agility class, designed to introduce dogs to control in the agility environment.

So you don't think family/companion dogs can be trained effectively using the clicker? Its only for competition obedience? Don't you teach a verbal marker? How are the principles of OC different for a VM vs. a clicker? Surely if people get the timing right with a VM, they can get it right with a clicker- in fact, some of our top obedience triallers argue that its much easier to get timing right with a clicker, plus all the other benefits (consistent marker, quicker, etc). Maybe its just that its harder for instructors (especially those with little experience of OC training) to pick up when people are using a VM ineffectively, so it goes unnoticed. Don't you split classes??? You have 40 people in one group, working together? Maybe that's responsible for dogs being distracted, rather than the odd clicker on the outskirts, like other clubs use. I'd expect 40 dogs being rewarded with tasty treats and exciting games with toys to be just as distracting as the sound of a clicker- you still allow toys, don't you? I'm sure I've read that Gina O'Keefe believes clickers can be used in classes, and dogs learn to differentiate when its "their click". You do agility then? Its strange, I'm a member of 3 clubs around Perth- and I've seen more problems with dogs running amok at NS than the other 2 clubs. The interesting thing is that these dogs were in the NS trialling classes (3 and above)- just goes to show that dogs that are well behaved in obedience classes can lose the plot in the agility situation. That's why I think dogs should be assessed in the agility situation, not based on obedience performance- some dogs whose owners aren't at all interested in competitive obedience may not do any heelwork, SFE etc, but might be well controlled and focussed in the agility context. That's true, most of them are great instructors, although its one benefit of places like SR, PT, ACWA that there are judges also instructing. Its a pity that with such great instructors, NS doesn't trust them to assess dogs for suitability for agility, but gets obedience people to do this. Anyway, its a good club, I've enjoyed training agility there. But for someone starting out, especially people who are clicker-training, I would suggest starting at another club. Then once you have started trialling, you can look at joining NSTODC for agility only- I believe that means you can skip the obedience requirement- is that right, Georgia?

Cool, me too. NSTODC now apparently won't let you use clickers anywhere near their classes (even on the outskirts)- which is very hard if you have a clicker-savvy dog. Even using a verbal marker isn't as effective as the clicker for my dogs, especially in the highly distracting environment of class. Most of the other clubs in Perth are much more easy-going, and if you're considerate of others are happy to let you use the clicker. I think they've changed it recently, the requirement was for dogs to be in pre-trialling classes but now apparently they require all dogs to be assessed by certain obedience instructors (some of whom have ZERO agility experience) and the last person I know who had her dog assessed had to do a formal stand-for-examination, even though her dog was already training with another club. I can't understand that.

You don't clicker train?

I'd recommend Southern River- they have good quality instruction, active judges instructing, and top level triallers. They are also a very open and friendly club. Its a pity you can't make Perth on Fridays- they are brilliant. Once you are at trialling level, you should phone them again to ask about advanced training, which happens on weeknights as well as Fridays. NS are okay, but they have a LOT of restrictive rules, many set by people with little/no agility experience, and they do require varying Obedience standards before starting agility (eg some dogs have had to do trial-standard Stand-For-Examination to be assessed for agility ???!!!!@) and the Obedience classes aren't clicker-friendly. There's also ACWA, I think that's Tuesdays? Or Cloverdale (Mondays??) Good luck, but I would suggest a look at SRAODC as your first choice (I am a member of 3 clubs, and ex-instructor at one)